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post #1 of 32 Old 12-10-2019, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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AMP recommendations

Hi all,

My new house is ready and now its time to get the additional equipment needed.

Now I am in Canada, so looking for Canadian sites and amazon would be my go to since I have 300 in GC's that I would like to use.

Right now here is my setup:


I have a Denon X4400 AVR, with RTIA9 fronts, Polk CSiA6 200 watt center channel, Polk HTS 12" 400 watt Sub, 4 x Polk RC60i (in ceiling), 2 x Polk RC65i (in wall), 2 x nuance (use them as rears) and then 2 x Polk MC60 or MC80 (cant remember off the top of my head) for my kitchen speakers.

Now, I think that my mains are underpowered, so perhaps I would need 3 amps like this one https://www.amazon.ca/Russound-P75-2...tronics&sr=1-1 or would I get a separate AVR like https://www.amazon.ca/Sony-STRDH190-...tronics&sr=1-1

Looking for advice. Also, I read that I want the amp to have good RMS in 8 ohm and not 4.

Thank you all in advance.
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post #2 of 32 Old 12-10-2019, 09:12 AM
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I think those amps you listed would be downgrades actually.

I don’t think your mains are underpowered, but if you could help explain why, that would be beneficial.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #3 of 32 Old 12-10-2019, 09:45 AM
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If you need to go very cheap on amps its much better to use those on the atmos speakers (or surround if no atmos) and leave the more capable amps in the AVR to handle the main speakers without the extra demand from driving the atmos speakers also.
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post #4 of 32 Old 12-10-2019, 09:55 AM
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AMP recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by cazzo1980 View Post
Hi all,



My new house is ready and now its time to get the additional equipment needed.



Now I am in Canada, so looking for Canadian sites and amazon would be my go to since I have 300 in GC's that I would like to use.



Right now here is my setup:





I have a Denon X4400 AVR, with RTIA9 fronts, Polk CSiA6 200 watt center channel, Polk HTS 12" 400 watt Sub, 4 x Polk RC60i (in ceiling), 2 x Polk RC65i (in wall), 2 x nuance (use them as rears) and then 2 x Polk MC60 or MC80 (cant remember off the top of my head) for my kitchen speakers.



Now, I think that my mains are underpowered, so perhaps I would need 3 amps like this one https://www.amazon.ca/Russound-P75-2...tronics&sr=1-1 or would I get a separate AVR like https://www.amazon.ca/Sony-STRDH190-...tronics&sr=1-1



Looking for advice. Also, I read that I want the amp to have good RMS in 8 ohm and not 4.



Thank you all in advance.

Any decent amp should double or almost double the power from 8ohm to 4ohm. If an amp isnt able to deliver the current at 4ohm it wont be good at 8ohm either. Speaker resistance (ohm) vary a lot depending on frequency so an ‘8ohm’ speaker can often go down to 4ohm and up to 16ohm (or less/more).
When people talk about a 100w amp, thats at 8 ohm and ‘classifying’ an amp at 6 or 4ohms makes it impossible to compare. The same with 1kHz tone vs 20Hz-20kHz pink noise, the results wont really be comparable.

Edit: there are exceptions like Macintosh which will deliver 100w at 8ohm and also 100w at 4ohm but thats not from a lacking powersupply.

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Last edited by Leeliemix; 12-10-2019 at 10:00 AM.
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post #5 of 32 Old 12-10-2019, 08:56 PM
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Canadian company: Axiom audio

https://www.axiomaudio.com/1000-amplifier

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post #6 of 32 Old 12-11-2019, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
I think those amps you listed would be downgrades actually.

I don’t think your mains are underpowered, but if you could help explain why, that would be beneficial.
I can't really explain, a few of my other buddies just tell me that and I ask them and they say I should be running them at 150w per. Now, to me, this does not mean much as I don't understand really what they are saying.
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post #7 of 32 Old 12-11-2019, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by smithsabom View Post
Canadian company: Axiom audio

https://www.axiomaudio.com/1000-amplifier
thx for link, that's a 1400.00 amp, going to be to much for me.
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post #8 of 32 Old 12-11-2019, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cazzo1980 View Post
I can't really explain, a few of my other buddies just tell me that and I ask them and they say I should be running them at 150w per. Now, to me, this does not mean much as I don't understand really what they are saying.
If when listening at your desired listening level, the master volume of the AVR isn't above 80/0dB and you're not hearing distortion at that desired volume, then the AVR is providing the required power with no additional audio quality benefit being provided by adding a more powerful external amp.
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post #9 of 32 Old 12-11-2019, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Leeliemix View Post
If you need to go very cheap on amps its much better to use those on the atmos speakers (or surround if no atmos) and leave the more capable amps in the AVR to handle the main speakers without the extra demand from driving the atmos speakers also.
Your suggestion is to have my Denon ONLY power the mains, center and SUB? Then I would need additional amps to power my 4 in ceiling, 2 in wall, 2 rears and then 2 more in ceilings that are in my kitchen?

As you can see I'm
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post #10 of 32 Old 12-11-2019, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
If when listening at your desired listening level, the master volume of the AVR isn't above 80/0dB and you're not hearing distortion at that desired volume, then the AVR is providing the required power with no additional audio quality benefit being provided by adding a more powerful external amp.
JD,

thank you, I don't hear any distortion so the Denon is doing what its supposed to do.
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post #11 of 32 Old 12-11-2019, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by cazzo1980 View Post
Your suggestion is to have my Denon ONLY power the mains, center and SUB? Then I would need additional amps to power my 4 in ceiling, 2 in wall, 2 rears and then 2 more in ceilings that are in my kitchen?



As you can see I'm


Ah no didnt mean that, just saying if you bought a very inexpensive 2 channel amp its better to use it for 2 of the atmos layer speakers or surrounds and not the main front ones.

But if everything plays fine now there is no reason to get any of those amps you linked.

(And the sub powers itself, if just gets a low signal)
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post #12 of 32 Old 12-11-2019, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cazzo1980 View Post
I can't really explain, a few of my other buddies just tell me that and I ask them and they say I should be running them at 150w per. Now, to me, this does not mean much as I don't understand really what they are saying.

I think your friends are delusional. That is like saying buy new tires for your car when they still have plenty of tread.

I would only look for *quality* external amplifiers when you have to drive speakers A - that are difficult loads, low impedance, harsh phase angle or B - to a higher volume level.

I would stay away from cheap zone amplifiers like that Russound amp, and AVR amps as they will sound the same at best, but much more likely, worse.

Enjoy your speakers. And tell your friends to use some common sense lol.
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #13 of 32 Old 12-11-2019, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Leeliemix View Post
Ah no didnt mean that, just saying if you bought a very inexpensive 2 channel amp its better to use it for 2 of the atmos layer speakers or surrounds and not the main front ones.

But if everything plays fine now there is no reason to get any of those amps you linked.



(And the sub powers itself, if just gets a low signal)
The thing is that I need an amp or two because my 4400 has 9 channels and requires an amp to run 11. Then I also have the 2 speakers in my kitchen. I am asking for the best route possible to get these all working. As mentioned, I have GC from Amazon, hence why I posted those links.


I would def use the cheaper amp for the surround speakers.

Seeing what equipment I have, how would I be able to get these to work without spending thousands.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
I think your friends are delusional. That is like saying buy new tires for your car when they still have plenty of tread.

I would only look for *quality* external amplifiers when you have to drive speakers A - that are difficult loads, low impedance, harsh phase angle or B - to a higher volume level.

I would stay away from cheap zone amplifiers like that Russound amp, and AVR amps as they will sound the same at best, but much more likely, worse.

Enjoy your speakers. And tell your friends to use some common sense lol.
My friends are not very bright...LOL.. I guess neither am I if I listen to them.

Also, with regards to the SUB, I assume a SUB crawl will be needed to see where the best position would be for it?

Thank you all again for your help.
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post #14 of 32 Old 12-11-2019, 10:12 AM
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AMP recommendations

@cazzo1980
Who doesnt want a nice big amp, problem is they cost and arent often needed but its always tempting

Edit:fixed a sentence.
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post #15 of 32 Old 12-11-2019, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by cazzo1980 View Post
The thing is that I need an amp or two because my 4400 has 9 channels and requires an amp to run 11. Then I also have the 2 speakers in my kitchen. I am asking for the best route possible to get these all working. As mentioned, I have GC from Amazon, hence why I posted those links.

I would def use the cheaper amp for the surround speakers.

Seeing what equipment I have, how would I be able to get these to work without spending thousands.
Either use an older AVR that you have replaced or purchase (2) AudioSource AMP100VS units, one to power the Height 2 speakers and one to power the Zone 2 speakers.
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post #16 of 32 Old 12-11-2019, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Either use an older AVR that you have replaced or purchase (2) AudioSource AMP100VS units, one to power the Height 2 speakers and one to power the Zone 2 speakers.
JD,

Don't have an older AVR lying around, but those amps I will look for.

Thank you!
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Either use an older AVR that you have replaced or purchase (2) AudioSource AMP100VS units, one to power the Height 2 speakers and one to power the Zone 2 speakers.
Good advice here. I have done this set up. Audiosource also has an equivalent class D amp that works great.

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Either use an older AVR that you have replaced or purchase (2) AudioSource AMP100VS units, one to power the Height 2 speakers and one to power the Zone 2 speakers.
is there anything in particular I should look for when looking for an AVR? I will check my local ads for some as well.

Thank you
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Good advice here. I have done this set up. Audiosource also has an equivalent class D amp that works great.
Would you happen to know the model?

Thank you for the info.
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post #20 of 32 Old 12-11-2019, 03:45 PM
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Would you happen to know the model?

Thank you for the info.
It's the AudioSource AD1002. (https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00ZSEFQO8/ref=emc_b_5_t)

[BTW, ignore the Class D = "Digital amplifier" nonsense in the link. Like all power amps, it's analogue.]

The AMP100VS is a solid performer. Personally, I wouldn't spend the extra $100 over the AMP100VS (https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00ZSEFU94/ref=dp_cerb_3) for the AD1002 unless you have a space issue in your equipment rack/entertainment unit.
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It's the AudioSource AD1002. (https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00ZSEFQO8/ref=emc_b_5_t)

[BTW, ignore the Class D = "Digital amplifier" nonsense in the link. Like all power amps, it's analogue.]

The AMP100VS is a solid performer. Personally, I wouldn't spend the extra $100 over the AMP100VS (https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00ZSEFU94/ref=dp_cerb_3) for the AD1002 unless you have a space issue in your equipment rack/entertainment unit.
I agreed with not paying the premium for digital if you don't need to.

some budget alternatives via Amazon:

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B002UL0XH2/ref=dp_cerb_2

https://www.amazon.ca/Monoprice-Unit...5W8BZWZRZDA5Y5
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is there anything in particular I should look for when looking for an AVR? I will check my local ads for some as well.

Thank you
To power at least 4CH, the AVR would either need to have on board Zone 2 processing (eg. 5.1+Zone 2=7CH model) or 7.1 multi analog inputs.
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post #23 of 32 Old 12-12-2019, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
It's the AudioSource AD1002. (https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00ZSEFQO8/ref=emc_b_5_t)

[BTW, ignore the Class D = "Digital amplifier" nonsense in the link. Like all power amps, it's analogue.]

The AMP100VS is a solid performer. Personally, I wouldn't spend the extra $100 over the AMP100VS (https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00ZSEFU94/ref=dp_cerb_3) for the AD1002 unless you have a space issue in your equipment rack/entertainment unit.
The Dayton APA102BT looks similar to the AD1002, but is less expensive. https://www.amazon.ca/Dayton-Audio-A...6140291&sr=8-3 I wonder whether it'd net out less if ordered from Parts Express, where it's about $100US (about $130CDN at the current exchange rate).
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post #24 of 32 Old 12-12-2019, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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To power at least 4CH, the AVR would either need to have on board Zone 2 processing (eg. 5.1+Zone 2=7CH model) or 7.1 multi analog inputs.
My co-worker has one of these that she is not using.

https://www.cnet.com/products/techni...r-5-1-channel/

Would this work?

or should I buy the 2 other amps from amazon?

Thank you

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My co-worker has one of these that she is not using.



https://www.cnet.com/products/techni...r-5-1-channel/



Would this work?



or should I buy the 2 other amps from amazon?



Thank you

It appears that it has 5.1 inputs, so this could definitely work. I would wager that this would also be a higher quality amp than the audiosource stuff.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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It appears that it has 5.1 inputs, so this could definitely work. I would wager that this would also be a higher quality amp than the audiosource stuff.
Thx for the info.

My question now is..

How would I set these avr's up?

Would I use the 9 channels on my Denon and then use 4 channels on the Technics AVR?

I am not familiar with any of zoning and have never setup 2 AVRs for one house.

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anyone? Thank you
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I hesitated to respond, because I use only a single zone.

What are you asking? You'd use two of the 5.1 analog inputs on the Technics for the rear height speakers in your main room. (Or the LR fronts, but I'd recommend the rear heights.) The Zone 2 outputs would go to a second set of inputs on the Technics.

I looked at the manual for the 4400. It's not clear to me that you could play stereo into Zone 2 while running a 7.1.4 Atmos system in Zone 1. If I interpret the manual correctly, I'd say no. I believe that if Zone 2 is active, two of the Zone 1 speakers are dropped. (Maybe the rear heights.)

One consideration: the Technics won't have a trigger that allows it to come on automatically wit the Denon. There are relays that could use the 12V trigger of the Denon to control the AC power to the Technics, but I have never bought one.
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post #29 of 32 Old 12-16-2019, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I hesitated to respond, because I use only a single zone.

What are you asking? You'd use two of the 5.1 analog inputs on the Technics for the rear height speakers in your main room. (Or the LR fronts, but I'd recommend the rear heights.) The Zone 2 outputs would go to a second set of inputs on the Technics.

I looked at the manual for the 4400. It's not clear to me that you could play stereo into Zone 2 while running a 7.1.4 Atmos system in Zone 1. If I interpret the manual correctly, I'd say no. I believe that if Zone 2 is active, two of the Zone 1 speakers are dropped. (Maybe the rear heights.)

One consideration: the Technics won't have a trigger that allows it to come on automatically wit the Denon. There are relays that could use the 12V trigger of the Denon to control the AC power to the Technics, but I have never bought one.
I think you are right. I do believe that I would lose a set of speakers. I guess I am looking for a diagram for wiring.

Thank you for the 12V trigger info, I don't anything about it.

Would you scrap the technics and get 2 amps that have the auto relays?

Just trying to figure out what the best option is.

Thank you for replying.
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post #30 of 32 Old 12-16-2019, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by cazzo1980 View Post
I think you are right. I do believe that I would lose a set of speakers. I guess I am looking for a diagram for wiring.

Thank you for the 12V trigger info, I don't anything about it.

Would you scrap the technics and get 2 amps that have the auto relays?

Just trying to figure out what the best option is.

Thank you for replying.
I don't know about "best".

The sort of 12V switch I referred to is like this: https://www.amazon.com/Niles-AC3-FG0...3&sr=8-1-fkmr0 That one is rather expensive, though. There may be cheaper options. Even do-it-yourself, if you're up for mounting a relay in a box: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/chip...amp-power.html

In the US, to go with the least kludgy solution, I might prefer just adding a couple of cheap amps (like the Dayton APA102BT). However, I'm not sure that they are priced comparably in Canada.

If you can get the old AVR for free, it's hard to beat that.

My apologies. I'm a retired optical engineer. My bosses used to get annoyed because I usually presented them with multiple options. They always wanted one recommendation, plus one backup in case they didn't like the first one.

Last edited by bobknavs; 12-16-2019 at 01:58 PM.
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