The "Official" Monoprice Monolith HTP-1 Owners Thread - Page 115 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3421 of 3475 Old 05-22-2020, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
You don't need two+ subwoofers with Dirac Bass Control, it is only the top of the three tiers that supports that. The middle tier is for a single sub where it automatically will set the crossovers for the speakers. The bottom/free tier will still do Bass Control but you need to set the crossover manually just like now.
Just to be clear I have six subs currently running on one channel and one of the main reasons to go with the HTP-1 would be Dirac Bass Control, but also overall upgrade of course. I currently have three subs behind MLP and three up front. It would be nice to get additional smoothness in the bass etc. I'll go with the max tier whatever that is. I want maximum bass quality. I would want to at least set the delays correctly for front and back subs so I'd have to split it to two channels. Don't get me wrong the current setup with one channel and Dirac sounds good but I've heard better.

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post #3422 of 3475 Old 05-22-2020, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I doubt that users wanting OSD will be reason enough to change the engineering decision to not include video processing for the HTP-1 when (and if) there is an HDMI 2.1 upgrade in the future. I could be wrong. In the meantime, there are other processor options to have both OSD and Dirac Live room correction.
I didnt say Dirac - I said PEQ.
From talking with a variety of people the OSD item comes up alot, from people that have it but would like a simple OSD to people who would rather buy it for the feature set but don't because of no OSD.

And for those other processors, well none of them are as bug free as the HTP-1 or have the same feature set until you go way up the price ladder.

Not sure why you are are being so gruff about someone having a hope that with the 2.1 board Monoprice may re-consider.

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post #3423 of 3475 Old 05-22-2020, 11:48 AM
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Let's focus on HDMI 2.1 in a year or two. Let's not make too much of a fuss about it now imo. Like someone said, manufacturers are having issues just getting all the current HDMI features to work correctly. Let's get that right before they start throwing in half baked 2.1 with all sorts of bugs that might affect current features. Just getting the basics right, getting Dirac BC out, fixing general bugs in time is worth so much more and enough for me personally. I'll probably start emailing Monoprice once projectors with FULL 2.1 functionality are released, until then I could care less to be honest. But I do understand there are a lot of people out there with TVs. I'm just saying if we could tell Monoprice to focus on something I don't think a bunch of emails asking questions about HDMI 2.1 gives the most bang for the buck.

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post #3424 of 3475 Old 05-22-2020, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by philipbtz View Post
Let's focus on HDMI 2.1 in a year or two. Let's not make too much of a fuss about it now imo. Like someone said, manufacturers are having issues just getting all the current HDMI features to work correctly. Let's get that right before they start throwing in half baked 2.1 with all sorts of bugs that might affect current features. Just getting the basics right, getting Dirac BC out, fixing general bugs in time is worth so much more and enough for me personally. I'll probably start emailing Monoprice once projectors with FULL 2.1 functionality are released, until then I could care less to be honest. But I do understand there are a lot of people out there with TVs. I'm just saying if we could tell Monoprice to focus on something I don't think a bunch of emails asking questions about HDMI 2.1 gives the most bang for the buck.

I 100% agree, I don't think anyone wants HDMI 2.1 rushed. And the current fishes to fry certainly are Bass Control and hopefully soon DTS:X Pro. (Are there any bugs left?)

That is what has been great about the HTP-1, the engineering groups methodology has been second to none at tackling the problems and features.

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post #3425 of 3475 Old 05-23-2020, 12:53 PM
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I personally prefer not have having an OSD if it would then require video processing. Video processing would add unnecessary expense and complexity to this device. If your HTP-1 is hidden away then it's easy enough to permanently setup a tablet somewhere in your theater room that can be used as a screen for viewing the current volume (I use an old iPad Air for this purpose in my family room where my AVR is hidden in a closet on the other side of the wall).

Regarding HDMI 2.1... what features of HDMI 2.1 are we even missing that matter right now given that we have working eARC? I currently just have my devices that support HDMI 2.1 features (VRR and ALLM) running directly into my display device and then use eARC for getting lossless audio back to the HTP-1.
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post #3426 of 3475 Old 05-23-2020, 01:11 PM
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I personally prefer not have having an OSD if it would then require video processing.
It is possible to do OSD without video processing, in the sense that only the area of the OSD is altered in the video image -- the rest remains bit-perfect. This makes the OSD switching seamless, too. That's how it was done in my Classe SSP-800 from 12 years ago. Not sure of the cost -- they used a FPGA to do it -- but it would probably mean additional hardware for sure in the HTP-1.

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post #3427 of 3475 Old 05-24-2020, 06:39 AM
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I, for one, was hoping that whatever hardware needed for HDMI 2.1, at least, could be shipped with the hopefully end of june shipping time frame, much as the USB hardware has apparently been shipping, since shipping began. I was told two days ago that the non hardware is still being worked on, but no hardware changes are required to get the USB port to work. Would be great for several non-thousands of miles purchasers/shippers/receivers to avoid all thepitfalls of just those last three. I realize, that the 2.1 hardware may not be available, but maybe it is and whatever hardware may be available, that could ship and we can hope the 2.1 update could be retroworked without a hardware change.

That is, of course, why I have posted and hoped for that obvious request.

Thank you very much

FURY
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post #3428 of 3475 Old 05-24-2020, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Srgtfury View Post
I, for one, was hoping that whatever hardware needed for HDMI 2.1, at least, could be shipped with the hopefully end of june shipping time frame, much as the USB hardware has apparently been shipping, since shipping began. I was told two days ago that the non hardware is still being worked on, but no hardware changes are required to get the USB port to work. Would be great for several non-thousands of miles purchasers/shippers/receivers to avoid all thepitfalls of just those last three. I realize, that the 2.1 hardware may not be available, but maybe it is and whatever hardware may be available, that could ship and we can hope the 2.1 update could be retroworked without a hardware change.

That is, of course, why I have posted and hoped for that obvious request.

Thank you very much

FURY
If HDMI 2.1 hardware was ready and manufacturers were confident that no hardware revisions were needed AND that existing HDMI (prior to new 2.1 features) sources and displays would work without any issues, I'm sure the manufacturers would be inclined to ship their products with HDMI 2.1 hardware and enable HDMI 2.1 features with firmware updates. But would you prefer they ship something that claims to have 2.1 support and then have ongoing problems with getting your existing sources and display to work with it because the new chipset isn't ready AND have to send the product back for a fix or would you rather have something that just plain works for now and then need to send it back a year-ish from now for a hardware upgrade to add HDMI 2.1 support that actually works? Personally, I'd prefer the 2nd option. If you're hell bent on buying something that has HDMI 2.1 support, then your best move is to stick with what you currently have for another year.
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post #3429 of 3475 Old 05-24-2020, 07:13 AM
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Please don’t kill me for asking, but is there an ETA on the Dirac BMM at this time? Or did I miss it, it’s already out, and I need to stick my foot in my mouth?
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post #3430 of 3475 Old 05-24-2020, 07:25 AM
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Hi GSR!

Thanks for your reply. Unless I have confidence that I could repair a busted part, in the field, (2.1 as you described it) I wouldn't buy it... but, if I could, I would.

To the point, though. Of course, a 2.1 hardware set, with a 2.0 functional HDMI, for now, is a bet I would make to save the travesties from shipping on Sooooo many articles/packages/freight I have received down the Cape. a 6K difference.

I was told from Monoprice a few days ago that the BMM option is also being worked on-no ETA.

Thank you very much

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post #3431 of 3475 Old 05-24-2020, 07:55 AM
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Please don’t kill me for asking, but is there an ETA on the Dirac BMM at this time? Or did I miss it, it’s already out, and I need to stick my foot in my mouth?

I read on a different thread that there are some bugs that Dirac needs to iron out.
It could be that some of the vendors are waiting for this before they release their side.

Dirac is a strange bedfellow.

With Denon/Marantz if audyssey is having a problem you call D/M.
With Dirac, if there is a problem there is a finger pointing challenge....
Is it the software on the PC with the issue (Call Dirac) or is it the device taking the inputs from the software with the issue (call the device vendor).
The challenge here is if you buy XYZ processor the vendor is getting the support calls 99% of the time where its very possible that Dirac software is causing the issue.

If I was creating a device with Dirac, I would certainly not release a new feature until the Dirac software side bugs were fixes to avoid alot of support calls and un-happy customers.

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post #3432 of 3475 Old 05-24-2020, 07:59 AM
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I read on a different thread that there are some bugs that Dirac needs to iron out.
It could be that some of the vendors are waiting for this before they release their side.

Dirac is a strange bedfellow.

With Denon/Marantz if audyssey is having a problem you call D/M.
With Dirac, if there is a problem there is a finger pointing challenge....
Is it the software on the PC with the issue (Call Dirac) or is it the device taking the inputs from the software with the issue (call the device vendor).
The challenge here is if you buy XYZ processor the vendor is getting the support calls 99% of the time where its very possible that Dirac software is causing the issue.

If I was creating a device with Dirac, I would certainly not release a new feature until the Dirac software side bugs were fixes to avoid alot of support calls and un-happy customers.
Agreed! Thanks!
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post #3433 of 3475 Old 05-24-2020, 04:39 PM
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Has anybody tested the HTP-1 with a phantom center channel?
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post #3434 of 3475 Old 05-24-2020, 11:15 PM
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Has anybody tested the HTP-1 with a phantom center channel?
i.e. without a center channel speaker? I have a system like that, 4.2.4. Works fine, but there is no way to adjust center ch. to mains mix level. Not sure if that feature is available on other manufacturer's models. My previous preamp also didn't have it.
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post #3435 of 3475 Old 05-24-2020, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by TimoJ View Post
i.e. without a center channel speaker? I have a system like that, 4.2.4. Works fine, but there is no way to adjust center ch. to mains mix level. Not sure if that feature is available on other manufacturer's models. My previous preamp also didn't have it.
There is usually a feature called center spread men running phantom center, does the HTP-1 have that?

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post #3436 of 3475 Old 05-24-2020, 11:55 PM
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There is usually a feature called center spread men running phantom center, does the HTP-1 have that?
I think center spread is not for phantom center (that's done automatically when you don't enable the center speaker), it's for spreading existing center channel also to main L/R speakers. HTP-1 has it, but it seems to work only with 2 channel material.
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post #3437 of 3475 Old 05-24-2020, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by TimoJ View Post
i.e. without a center channel speaker? I have a system like that, 4.2.4. Works fine, but there is no way to adjust center ch. to mains mix level. Not sure if that feature is available on other manufacturer's models. My previous preamp also didn't have it.
Great. I don't use a center channel speaker so need this feature. Otherwise I would use an additional mixer but would rather not have to!
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post #3438 of 3475 Old 05-25-2020, 06:29 AM
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Great. I don't use a center channel speaker so need this feature. Otherwise I would use an additional mixer but would rather not have to!
I don’t know why we would call this a “feature”. If a system is configured without a center channel, then when reproducing multi-channel audio, the center channel information is automatically routed equally to the left and right speakers, producing what sounds like a phantom center channel. This is similar to when playing two-channel audio—vocals mixed at the same level in the left and right channels sound like they are coming from the phantom center channel. Wouldn’t all processors work in this manner?
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post #3439 of 3475 Old 05-25-2020, 06:40 AM
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Wouldn’t all processors work in this manner?
Yes, except very buggy processors..
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post #3440 of 3475 Old 05-25-2020, 09:00 AM
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I think center spread is not for phantom center (that's done automatically when you don't enable the center speaker), it's for spreading existing center channel also to main L/R speakers. HTP-1 has it, but it seems to work only with 2 channel material.
Despite its name, the Centre Spread parameter does not spread centre channel info to the L/R speakers. If it did, then it would work on multi-channel material, adding discrete centre channel content to the L/R speakers.

What Centre Spread actually does is let the user choose whether extracted centre content is cancelled in the L/R speakers or not. That's why it only works with 2-channel material (multi-channel material has a discrete centre, not an extracted centre). When DSU extracts centre content from 2-channel material, it cancels that same info from the L/R speakers by default, otherwise you'd hear it in triple-mono.

However, you can stop this cancellation by switching the Centre Spread parameter to On, which will leave the L/R channels intact. So the info coming from the Centre speaker is now coming from all 3 front speakers. When listening to music, some listeners like hearing the same content from multiple speakers (one of the reasons why the Auro upmixer is popular with music). Having that option is useful.
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post #3441 of 3475 Old 05-25-2020, 09:18 AM
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Despite its name, the Centre Spread parameter does not spread centre channel info to the L/R speakers. If it did, then it would work on multi-channel material, adding discrete centre channel content to the L/R speakers.

What Centre Spread actually does is let the user choose whether extracted centre content is cancelled in the L/R speakers or not. That's why it only works with 2-channel material (multi-channel material has a discrete centre, not an extracted centre). When DSU extracts centre content from 2-channel material, it cancels that same info from the L/R speakers by default, otherwise you'd hear it in triple-mono.

However, you can stop this cancellation by switching the Centre Spread parameter to On, which will leave the L/R channels intact. So the info coming from the Centre speaker is now coming from all 3 front speakers. When listening to music, some listeners like hearing the same content from multiple speakers (one of the reasons why the Auro upmixer is popular with music). Having that option is useful.
Thanks, now it makes sense. Most user manuals seem to describe it's function wrong or incorrect way.
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post #3442 of 3475 Old 05-25-2020, 09:20 AM
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Despite its name, the Centre Spread parameter does not spread centre channel info to the L/R speakers. If it did, then it would work on multi-channel material, adding discrete centre channel content to the L/R speakers.

What Centre Spread actually does is let the user choose whether extracted centre content is cancelled in the L/R speakers or not. That's why it only works with 2-channel material (multi-channel material has a discrete centre, not an extracted centre). When DSU extracts centre content from 2-channel material, it cancels that same info from the L/R speakers by default, otherwise you'd hear it in triple-mono.

However, you can stop this cancellation by switching the Centre Spread parameter to On, which will leave the L/R channels intact. So the info coming from the Centre speaker is now coming from all 3 front speakers. When listening to music, some listeners like hearing the same content from multiple speakers (one of the reasons why the Auro upmixer is popular with music). Having that option is useful.
I am one of those who finds turning Center Spread on when listening to two-channel music very pleasing. A friend of mine (can't remember who ) recommended this setting. And perhaps my friend, should he be listening, would also comment on how center channel sound is even further improved by adding a foot or two to the center channel delay.
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post #3443 of 3475 Old 05-25-2020, 09:27 AM
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I am one of those who finds turning Center Spread on when listening to two-channel music very pleasing. A friend of mine (can't remember who ) recommended this setting. And perhaps my friend, should he be listening, would also comment on how center channel sound is even further improved by adding a foot or two to the center channel delay.
Looks like Dolby is eliminating Center Spread for unknown reasons: https://www.audioholics.com/audio-te...es/dolby-music

Also here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTcd...k#action=share
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post #3444 of 3475 Old 05-25-2020, 09:38 AM
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Most user manuals seem to describe it's function wrong or incorrect way.
True, though I can't blame them for giving an over-simplified explanation rather than get into the actual workings of surround processing. It's a user manual after all and their main goal is helping you operate their product.

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post #3445 of 3475 Old 05-25-2020, 11:40 AM
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Audio reproduction is an engineering task. Measurements are not "nice to have" but a necessity. Turning knobs to make something sound good is the mixing/mastering engineer's task.
I agree if you are a engineer it is a necessity, but his incorrect/flawed measurements need work.


Most people on this forum are not engineers and are looking for great sound in their home. While it's nice he provides measurements for those who care, his measurements and the difference between one unit and the next unit below it are very close and not even something anyone can hear. So there are other things to consider.

1) JVC RS540, Monolith HTP-1, Outlaw Audio 7700 & 7140, Wharfedale Jade 7's series speakers, RSL C34e(Atmos)
2) LG OLED65B6, Integra DRC-R1.1, Emotiva XPA9, Klipsch RP8000F, Klipsch RP404C, Klipsch RP500SA, Klipsch RP140D
3) Sony XBR55F900, Yamaha CXA5100 & MX5000, GoldenEar SuperSat 3 System
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post #3446 of 3475 Old 05-25-2020, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by wilbur_the_goose View Post
Looks like Dolby is eliminating Center Spread for unknown reasons:
Here's some background on this issue from someone who was there.

When PLII was being developed by Jim Fosgate and Dolby, there was a conscious effort to address not only Lt/Rt movie soundtracks but, for the first time, stereo music. The "Center Width" control was added to do just as Gene mentioned -- prevent the steering of the main vocals to the center speaker from collapsing the stereo effect.

Why does this happen? In a 2-speaker system, the center vocal itself can produce a razor sharp phantom image, so that ought not be a spatial problem if reproduced from a single center speaker (and it's not -- something now proven with the advent of the 5.1 format). The problem is with wideband logic decoders (where wideband means the steering matrix operates without any frequency selectivity -- no filters in the audio path). When vocals are being steered to the center output, to some degree so are other, lower level stereo/spatial sounds. More on this later.

The Center Width control would, as Sanjay explained, reduce how much of the derived center signal was removed from the L/R channels, at the extreme setting (max width) the removal being totally cancelled, leaving the phantom image completely intact. Making this adjustable (8 steps to choose) let users dial in the degree needed to achieve improved center imaging vs stereo effect, and to maintain the tonal quality of the L/R speakers in cases when the center speakers were not on par. (This is before modern room EQ was able to help that significantly.) This is all highly subjective so we gave the user the final say. At any setting of the control the total energy of the vocals is maintained, only their distribution across L/R and C varies.

Aside from the above, there are other differences between the PLII Movie and Music modes in how the surround channels are handled, again to optimize the different needs of the content, but we can save that for another time if anyone is interested.

Back to the wideband steering issue. The idea of running multiple decoders, each covering a portion of the frequency spectrum, was considered decades ago as that could theoretically prevent dominant sounds in one frequency range from affecting other signals at other frequencies. It was just too taxing on the DSPs of the day to ask them to run 4 to 10 surround decoders in parallel, plus a filter bank. Nor would that ensure optimal results. Sounds good on paper, but when breaking up the spectrum and redistributing it, it does not necessarily reconstruct exactly as one would want for musical integrity. The early attempts made that abundantly clear.

Today’s DSPs are vastly more powerful, so multiband upmixers easily “fit the profile” of the hardware. A case can be made that with very good frequency selectivity it is possible to extract center vocals while not compromising the stereo effect, and having tested DSU and Center Spread on/off in the AVM 60, I’d acknowledge that this has been achieved. With well matched L/C/R ideally positioned and listener at the MLP, the difference is virtually indistinguishable. Couple that with a move to eliminate any upmixing “flavors” from the roster (Movie, Music, Game), and with the drive to eliminate user controls (Center Width, Panorama), all in the name of simplifying use for the end user, there can be what some might consider the ideal solution from an upmixer – one size fits all. Unfortunately, we do not all have perfectly matched or arranged L/C/R. And that's not the only difference -- what often comes out the surrounds from DSU is not at all the same in spirit or effect as what we hear from PLII or AuroMatic. Totally different philosophy.

I suspect that I am not the only one who rejects this “one for all” concept. If that were true, we would find no joy in having the vastly different portrayals afforded by DSU, Neural:X and AuroMatic upmixing options. And as different as they are, in my humble opinion none of them do as good a job for stereo music as PLII (or PLIIx, the 7.1-ch version). Not sure how many of you have heard PLII in a well-matched, musically clean playback system (i.e. with Dirac), but there is no other upmixer that derives as much spatial immersion with as much respect for the purity of the source material as PLII. Yes, I am biased as I had a hand in the development (well, maybe a pinky). But that’s what gives me an understanding of the innards.

My dream for an immersive surround processor is one that is just as interested in music as it is in movies. And as good as AuroMatic 2D is (and I said exactly that years ago when I owned the Marantz AV7702), it’s use of artificial reverb is something that rubs me the wrong way when I am in serious music mode. Just to name one niggle.

If the HTP-1 were to include PLIIx, and support multichannel Roon playback, I’d see it as a serious surround music contender. Until then, the Classe SSP-800 remains untouched by Monoprice, Storm, Datasat, or Trinnov.

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Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
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post #3447 of 3475 Old 05-25-2020, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by wilbur_the_goose View Post
Looks like Dolby is eliminating Center Spread for unknown reasons: https://www.audioholics.com/audio-te...es/dolby-music

Also here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTcd...k#action=share
In the past, I had not really played with center spread.
I watch some anime and British shows which are often in 2.0.
PLII and DTS up-mixers never really sounded right to me. Much of the bass and fullness was lost.

The RMC-1 Dolby up-mixer (on the RMC-1) is excellent. I often have to check the source information to know if this is a 2.0 or multi-channel.
I suspect this is a feature of the new up-mixer and not limited to the Emotiva.

The loss of Center-spread may be completely offset by the quality of the new up-mixer(s).

- Rich

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Last edited by RichB; 05-25-2020 at 12:41 PM.
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post #3448 of 3475 Old 05-25-2020, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
The Center Width control would, as Sanjay explained, reduce how much of the derived center signal was removed from the L/R channels, at the extreme setting (max width) the removal being totally cancelled, leaving the phantom image completely intact.
Juuuuuust to make sure everyone is clear about the difference between the Centre Width control of PLII/PLIIx versus the Centre Spread parameter of DSU. The max width setting of Centre Width did indeed result in a phantom centre image (no sound coming from the Centre speaker) as Roger described. By comparison, DSU is always producing sound from the Centre speaker, with the Centre Spread parameter only letting you choose whether those sounds are cancelled from the L/R speakers or not. Neither one of those settings results in a phantom centre image the way the old Centre Width control did.
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post #3449 of 3475 Old 05-25-2020, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Juuuuuust to make sure everyone is clear about the difference between the Centre Width control of PLII/PLIIx versus the Centre Spread parameter of DSU. The max width setting of Centre Width did indeed result in a phantom centre image (no sound coming from the Centre speaker) as Roger described. By comparison, DSU is always producing sound from the Centre speaker, with the Centre Spread parameter only letting you choose whether those sounds are cancelled from the L/R speakers or not. Neither one of those settings results in a phantom centre image the way the old Centre Width control did.
Yes, with DSU, Center Spread Off is equivalent to PLII Width at minimum. Center Spread ON is equivalent to PLII Width at the midpoint. There is no "Max Width" (full phantom center) setting in the DSU case. And apparently there is no middle setting anymore either.

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
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post #3450 of 3475 Old 05-25-2020, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbo View Post
I agree if you are a engineer it is a necessity, but his incorrect/flawed measurements need work.
If you think his measurements are generally flawed and incorrect please tell him what he's doing wrong. Until then you're just making a claim without any proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbo View Post
Most people on this forum are not engineers and are looking for great sound in their home. While it's nice he provides measurements for those who care, his measurements and the difference between one unit and the next unit below it are very close and not even something anyone can hear.
He's providing plenty of measurements, so I'm not sure what you're referring to. Some things are audible, others are not. But one thing has been uncovered. There's no relation between price and performance. A $1k Denon can have better performance than devices costing 10 times as much.

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Originally Posted by Carbo View Post
So there are other things to consider.
What other things are to consider? Hearsay and sighted listening? Audiophoolery.
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"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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