The "Official" Monoprice Monolith HTP-1 Owners Thread - Page 49 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1441 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 02:53 PM
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Firmware version 1.3 preview is now available.
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post #1442 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crossrh View Post
Dirac is inverting the phase of my subs. I went through every speaker with a 9 volt battery and confirmed that they are all in phase, and yet Dirac thinks otherwise. I ran REW, and, sure enough, there's a big dip at the crossover freqs of L, C, R, and the subs. I looked at the Impulse Response in Dirac and I can see that it changed the phase 180 deg.

I don't know if I can change it back within Dirac, so I wonder if reversing the polarity of the sub cables is my best option.

I haven't done a calibration with Dirac 2.4, just 2.3. The REW response of the LCR speakers is not very flat (+/- 5db,) certainly not what Dirac shows for its (anticipated?) FR.

Thoughts?

Rick
How is the HTP-1 connected to your amp(s)? And how is it connected to your subs? What kinds of amp(s) do you have?
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post #1443 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 04:06 PM
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How is the HTP-1 connected to your amp(s)? And how is it connected to your subs? What kinds of amp(s) do you have?
The amps are in my signature. XLR to the Monolith amp, and XLR/RCA to the ICEpower amps. The Monolith amp runs the LCR and Subs (with a Y-splitter for the two subs, which are mounted one above the other in the wall,) and the ICEpower amps run the surround and Tops. I haven't checked the surrounds for polarity with the subs yet.

The SB12.3s (Left and Right Mains) have the tweeter and the two mids reverse polarity, as does the ZD3C center channel. The subs are not going through a MiniDSP.

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post #1444 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 04:12 PM
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The amps are in my signature. XLR to the Monolith amp, and XLR/RCA to the ICEpower amps. The Monolith amp runs the LCR and Subs (with a Y-splitter for the two subs, which are mounted one above the other in the wall,) and the ICEpower amps run the surround and Tops. I haven't checked the surrounds for polarity with the subs yet.

The SB12.3s (Left and Right Mains) have the tweeter and the two mids reverse polarity, as does the ZD3C center channel. The subs are not going through a MiniDSP.

Rick
Would you be willing to share your REW MDAT file with me so that I can take a look at what is happening? To make the analysis I would need the following measurements from the MLP:

- Each sub individually with Dirac turned off
- Each sub individually with Dirac turned on
- Individual measurements of the LCR speakers with the subs turned off, with Dirac turned on

You could place the MDAT on Dropbox.com or Google Drive. If you don’t care to do this, I will understand.
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post #1445 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 04:22 PM
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Would you be willing to share your REW MDAT file with me so that I can take a look at what is happening? To make the analysis I would need the following measurements from the MLP:

- Each sub individually with Dirac turned off
- Each sub individually with Dirac turned on
- Individual measurements of the LCR speakers with the subs turned off, with Dirac turned on

You could place the MDAT on Dropbox.com or Google Drive. If you don’t care to do this, I will understand.
Thanks, Jerry. Do you want the LCR with the subs, to see the notches at the crossover points?

Could I zip the MDAT, and include it with a post?

Rick

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post #1446 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by crossrh View Post
Thanks, Jerry. Do you want the LCR with the subs, to see the notches at the crossover points?

Could I zip the MDAT, and include it with a post?

Rick
Yes, those measurements would be useful as well. Unfortunately, the zipped MDAT will probably exceed the size allowed for AVS posts, but you could try.
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post #1447 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 05:10 PM
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Question Wait for software update or RMA my HTP-1?

Hi all.

Pulled the trigger on the HTP-1 after back-to-back disasters with my Trinnov Altitude 16 and my StormAudio ISP 3D.16 Elite. (Summary: Both could not sync consistently to multiple sources, worst with Apple TV 4K, with many audio and video artifacts to boot. Happy to supply more if anyone is interested. Awful products and support.). Been lurking here for weeks, and I've really been loving my HTP-1. While not bug-free, it's far, far better at syncing than either the Trinnov or the StormAudio, which is a huge move in the right direction. I love all the detailed information and configuration options in the Web UI, too. (It's certainly not bug free, but I'm an engineer, it's a new product, I'm willing to deal with software updates and/or switching sources / settings to get things to re-sync).

However, mine has one big flaw: Random reboots. I've now had it reboot three different times, on three difference sources (Apple TV 4K, Amazon Fire TV Cube, Roku Ultra) with different video & audio streams (Atmos MAT/PCM, Atmos Dolby Digital Plus, etc), in the middle of playing back content. The audio drops out for a few seconds, the video then drops out, and then the whole unit reboots. It's then fine, after the reboot, for some amount of time (hours), but this reboot list includes at least one time after a full power cycle right before anyway. Definitely not stable.

I have submitted feedback via the Web UI on the device, but have yet to hear back (also supplied email address in feedback). I submitted a customer support request via Monoprice's online form as well, but also have yet to hear back. I know @kemac referenced random reboots, but wondered if I should "tough it out" hoping for a software solution, or RMA the unit for a hardware replacement? Anyone else in this boat?

BTW, thank you @MonolithGuy for posting detailed release notes, information about upcoming software updates, etc. It really goes a long ways towards building customer loyalty, and I really appreciate it. This is the kind of product, company, and transparency I can get behind. Keep it coming.

Sony VPL-VW5000ES Laser Projector | Monolith HTP-1 9.1.6 Processor | Velodyne Digital Drive 1812 Signature Subwoofer | Genelec speakers (HT210B, AIW25, AIC25) | Stewart Cinecurve 2.40 w/StudioTek 130 G3 screen
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post #1448 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 05:41 PM
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Hi all.

Pulled the trigger on the HTP-1 after back-to-back disasters with my Trinnov Altitude 16 and my StormAudio ISP 3D.16 Elite. (Summary: Both could not sync consistently to multiple sources, worst with Apple TV 4K, with many audio and video artifacts to boot. Happy to supply more if anyone is interested. Awful products and support.). Been lurking here for weeks, and I've really been loving my HTP-1. While not bug-free, it's far, far better at syncing than either the Trinnov or the StormAudio, which is a huge move in the right direction. I love all the detailed information and configuration options in the Web UI, too. (It's certainly not bug free, but I'm an engineer, it's a new product, I'm willing to deal with software updates and/or switching sources / settings to get things to re-sync).

However, mine has one big flaw: Random reboots. I've now had it reboot three different times, on three difference sources (Apple TV 4K, Amazon Fire TV Cube, Roku Ultra) with different video & audio streams (Atmos MAT/PCM, Atmos Dolby Digital Plus, etc), in the middle of playing back content. The audio drops out for a few seconds, the video then drops out, and then the whole unit reboots. It's then fine, after the reboot, for some amount of time (hours), but this reboot list includes at least one time after a full power cycle right before anyway. Definitely not stable.

I have submitted feedback via the Web UI on the device, but have yet to hear back (also supplied email address in feedback). I submitted a customer support request via Monoprice's online form as well, but also have yet to hear back. I know @kemac referenced random reboots, but wondered if I should "tough it out" hoping for a software solution, or RMA the unit for a hardware replacement? Anyone else in this boat?

BTW, thank you @MonolithGuy for posting detailed release notes, information about upcoming software updates, etc. It really goes a long ways towards building customer loyalty, and I really appreciate it. This is the kind of product, company, and transparency I can get behind. Keep it coming.


Regarding the reboots. Make sure your HTP-1 is getting plenty of cooling air. Don’t know if it’ll help, but since I went to a triple hockey puck base, I haven’t had a reboot


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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post #1449 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 05:46 PM
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Regarding the reboots. Make sure your HTP-1 is getting plenty of cooking air. Don’t know if it’ll help, but since I went to a triple hockey puck base, I haven’t had a reboot


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“Cooking air”? Sounds a little warm to me...

What is a triple hockey puck base?
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post #1450 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 06:05 PM
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“Cooking air”? Sounds a little warm to me...

What is a triple hockey puck base?
Darn iPhone! Corrected.

I like using hockey pucks to separate equipment. They are cheap, solid, and effective.

I’m using 3 hockey pucks stacked under the HTP-1 in 4 spots to elevate it and encourage air flow.
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post #1451 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 06:18 PM
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Jerry:
See if you can open this. This is my first time doing something like this, so...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B7T...ew?usp=sharing

Rick

edit: I forgot to do the Timing Reference in REW.

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post #1452 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 07:04 PM
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Jerry:
See if you can open this. This is my first time doing something like this, so...

Rick

edit: I forgot to do the Timing Reference in REW.
Downloaded successfully. Here is what I see:

1. The subs before Dirac and after Dirac are clearly showing inverted.



2. The combined sub signal clearly has opposite polarity from the Mains (the Left speaker in the example).



3. The combined Left+Subs clearly shows a worse response curve after Dirac.



4. Using REW Trace Arithmetic, adding the Left (Large) + Subs (after flipping polarity), it looks like the response is significantly improved. So, recommendation is to flip the polarity on the subs and re-measure to verify.




We are cooking air now!
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post #1453 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 07:45 PM
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So there's no way to tell Dirac not to change the polarity of the subs. I assume Dirac thinks it needs to based on the tweeters and mids in the Zaph Audio speakers (LCR) having reversed polarity. I don't think this has anything to do with the HTP-1, just Dirac.

Does anybody else out there have any experience with speakers that have tweeters and/or mids with reverse polarity (which usually happens with 2nd Order crossovers) and Dirac?

Thank you, Jerry. I appreciate your efforts on this. At least we have PEQ to fine-tune the FR. I guess I had my hopes up too high after seeing Dirac's estimation of the Corrected FR. I used the individual chair scenario for mike placement; I wonder if I used a smaller "box" for the nine measurements it would smooth out the FR that REW sees from its one mike location.

I'll take your advice and flip the sub polarity.

Rick
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post #1454 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crossrh View Post
So there's no way to tell Dirac not to change the polarity of the subs. I assume Dirac thinks it needs to based on the tweeters and mids in the Zaph Audio speakers (LCR) having reversed polarity. I don't think this has anything to do with the HTP-1, just Dirac.

Does anybody else out there have any experience with speakers that have tweeters and/or mids with reverse polarity (which usually happens with 2nd Order crossovers) and Dirac?

Thank you, Jerry. I appreciate your efforts on this. At least we have PEQ to fine-tune the FR. I guess I had my hopes up too high after seeing Dirac's estimation of the Corrected FR. I used the individual chair scenario for mike placement; I wonder if I used a smaller "box" for the nine measurements it would smooth out the FR that REW sees from its one mike location.

I'll take your advice and flip the sub polarity.

Rick
I certainly would try flipping the polarity and re-measuring the response. Also, one additional complication—if you ever re-run the Dirac calibration, you should set the polarity normal, run the calibration, and then flip it back. Also, experimenting with different positions for the subs is more effective at addressing response curve issues than PEQ.
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post #1455 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 07:52 PM
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Anyone else have issues with the HTP-1 connecting to Dirac (v2.4)since 1.3 today? Mine won’t connect with hardwire or WiFi even when manually inputting in the IP addresses...
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post #1456 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 08:14 PM
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Anyone else have issues with the HTP-1 connecting to Dirac (v2.4)since 1.3 today? Mine won’t connect with hardwire or WiFi even when manually inputting in the IP addresses...
I've had that issue with 1.2. Try a hard reboot (rear panel switch) and if that doesn't work, try forcing an update to the HTP-1, even if you're at the latest release. That one worked for me. If those methods don't work, get a bigger hammer.

Rick

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post #1457 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by wilbur_the_goose View Post
Regarding the reboots. Make sure your HTP-1 is getting plenty of cooling air. Don’t know if it’ll help, but since I went to a triple hockey puck base, I haven’t had a reboot

Yep, it's in a custom rack with plenty of both clearance and cooling. Overheating is not a problem. Thanks for the idea, any others?

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post #1458 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I certainly would try flipping the polarity and re-measuring the response. Also, one additional complication—if you ever re-run the Dirac calibration, you should set the polarity normal, run the calibration, and then flip it back. Also, experimenting with different positions for the subs is more effective at addressing response curve issues than PEQ.
I plan on re-doing the Dirac cal tomorrow, with Dirac 2.4, so I'll leave the sub polarity as is until after the cal, and then flip it.

Moving subs is the preferred technique, but with wall-mounted Infinite Baffle subs, not really an option. I did run through REW's Room Sim, and used the results to guide the placement of the subs. These are my first IB subs, and now I'm a firm believer. The only limitation to bass response is the structural integrity of my house.

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post #1459 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crossrh View Post
I plan on re-doing the Dirac cal tomorrow, with Dirac 2.4, so I'll leave the sub polarity as is until after the cal, and then flip it.

Moving subs is the preferred technique, but with wall-mounted Infinite Baffle subs, not really an option. I did run through REW's Room Sim, and used the results to guide the placement of the subs. These are my first IB subs, and now I'm a firm believer. The only limitation to bass response is the structural integrity of my house.
I am well aware of the exemplary performance of IB subs. I am also well aware of the importance of proper placement of subs to get the best response. The question I have always had is how can one be sure that the placement of the IB sub is optimal, since once it is installed, there is no moving it? Did you go through some sort of modeling exercise to pick where to install the subs? Anyway, we are straying far away from the topic of this thread. Good luck!
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post #1460 of 2703 Old 02-10-2020, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I have run into one minor issue with my target curves in Dirac that I haven't been able to work around. I'm not sure if it's a bug in Dirac, user error, or just a limitation with the way Dirac works.

Because I'm using a target curve with such a large bass boost, I need to shift the entire target curve down to make sure I don't run into the 10 dB boost limit in the bass frequencies. I understand that when setting curtains on the target, there is a range right before the curtain where the filters are applied with less strength, so there is a smooth transition between corrected and uncorrected frequencies. In my case, since I have shifted the entire target curve down, the effect is that in this transition area, the high frequencies appear "boosted" (they're not actually boosted, it's just that the cut required by the lowered target curve is applied less and less to reach their relatively higher levels when uncorrected) as seen in image 1.

However, I would like to apply corrections across the entire measured frequency range (up to 20 kHz), so I set my upper curtain accordingly, and image 2 shows that the predicted frequency response no longer has a high frequency "boost" in the upper range of the correction window. But when I export filters using the target shown in image 2, and then take measurements in REW, I see that there is still a high frequency "boost" starting at 16 kHz as seen in image 3.

This isn't a huge deal to me because my old ears can't hear high enough to actually hear those boosted frequencies anyway, but I just can't help but assume that it would still be better if they weren't "boosted" so much. I have seen the same behavior on Dirac 1 with miniDSP so I don't think what I'm seeing is specific to the HTP-1. Any ideas, Dirac users?
I'm pleased to report that this issue is fixed in Dirac 2.4. It required redoing the calibration from scratch, it didn't retroactively fix previously saved projects.

Mic positions also advance automatically, like they did in Dirac 1. That was a minor complaint I had, it's nice to see this updated so quickly.

Dirac trims are also much more accurate in 2.4. I saw some reports in the NAD thread of Dirac trim levels being slightly inaccurate, and I believe I was experiencing this as well. With 2.3 Dirac chose trims that were different by 1.0 dB for my front left and front right speakers, even though they were equidistant from the mic, and Dirac delay between them was exactly equal up to 15 decimal places thanks to setting everything up perfectly with laser level. Verifying with REW showed that the front right speaker was about 1.0 dB soft, so I added 1.0 dB back to the front right user trim and this measured and sounded more balanced to my ears. With 2.4, after doing a fresh calibration, which is required for this fix to be in effect, the difference in Dirac trim between the two channels is just 0.2 dB.

I've also been continuing to experiment with and refine Dirac target curves on my setup. The HTP-1's extremely fast switching between Dirac configs allowed me to make micro-optimizations that would not have been possible if the switching was any slower. After around 20 or so more iterations since my last post about target curves, I think I've finally landed on a curve that sounds natural and satisfying for both music and movies on my setup (I have no idea how it translates on other setups). I'll do a more detailed write up on my experience with this tomorrow.
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post #1461 of 2703 Old 02-11-2020, 12:12 AM
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Dirac trims are also much more accurate in 2.4. I saw some reports in the NAD thread of Dirac trim levels being slightly inaccurate, and I believe I was experiencing this as well.
NAD does round trim levels albeit DL reporting them at higher precision. That can cause errors up to 1dB.
But there's a bigger problem with DL's current gain compensation algorithm. Dirac is aware of it and will work on a more robust implementation.

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post #1462 of 2703 Old 02-11-2020, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Yep. That's more like it. I also realized after many iterations that flatter response below 5K sounds much more natural and has no boominess to it. Here is the curve I use.

and here is my Sub response

Not sure what having a point at 0 with -17 would give you. I just limit the curtain so there is no correction like following for Sub.

Please note that this is for minidsp and not monolith but I think Dirac should operate the same way.
I spent the past week continuing to refine target curves and your advice about flatter midrange was very helpful. I applied that logic to the curve I posted earlier and continued to get better results, until I settled on something for a while. I called this curve, RoomFeel Rolloff 10. But as I listened to a wider variety of music, I couldn't help but feel like something was off on some genres like rock and metal. They had plenty of bass but they sounded awfully dull.

So I got curious and actually loaded your target curve exactly as-is. I called this curve, harrisu. This had less bass, as expected, and I found the treble slightly bright on female vocals on my system, but the dullness of rock and metal was fixed compared to RoomFeel Rolloff 10, and the overall balance of instruments was significantly improved on tracks with female vocals and a lot of other instruments and chaos going on. The vocals sounded drowned out in RoomFeel Rolloff 10 compared to harrisu, where they were front and center as they should be. And being able to have an instant comparison, it was obvious how muffled rock and metal sounded on RoomFeel Rolloff 10 compared to harrisu. I must have killed too much treble on RoomFeel Rolloff 10.

So I abandoned RoomFell Rolloff 10 and started making refinements to the harrisu curve. For bass, with an 80 Hz crossover, which clearly looked like the best crossover to use for harrisu, I found it easiest to just run the bass trim hot to get the bass levels that I wanted -- that way I don't run into issues with Dirac running out of headroom to boost. I ended up running the subwoofer trim about 4 dB hot to get the bass to where I wanted it -- I achieved this by just using the gain knobs on the subwoofers themselves and measuring the results in REW, loading the target curve in REW as well to compare.

I had to spend a lot more time on treble. Knowing how dreadful rock could sound if I rolled off treble too much now, I tried adding heavy rolloffs to harrisu starting at around 8 kHz to get female vocals to sound natural and not overly sharp and ear piercing. Rolling off as late as 8 kHz, instead of something like 1 kHz, allowed me to still tame female voice harshness while not destroying the energy in rock music. Even at 8 kHz and beyond I had to be careful not to destroy the sounds of high frequency details coming from things like cymbals.

I finally got something that sounded pleasant for female vocals in music without completely dulling the sound of rock, and while the steep and heavy rolloff after 8kHz I settled on made me nervous, I was willing to stick with it if it really did sound best. So I loaded the updated curve called harrisu Rolloff 3 to my LCR speakers and spent some time listening to this for a few days.

And then my next issue became apparent: while music sounded fine across a variety of genres, voices in movies sounded veiled and muffled. I didn't realize how much high frequency content exists in human speech, even male voices. Things like the sound of an "S" or "Th" extend up to 8-10 kHz and harrisu Rolloff 3 practically removed the details in these sounds and made it sound like everyone was talking behind a heavy curtain. But of course, if the levels at 8-10 kHz are too high then voices sound unbearably sharp because these sounds are overemphasized.

So I spent another several iterations trying to find the right balance in voices, across a wide variety of content, and landed on a separate curve with a different treble rolloff... just for voices in the center channel called, harrisu Center 5. The rolloff was much more shallow compared to the one I settled on for LR/music. Again, running a different curve for center/movies vs LR/music made me slightly uncomfortable but I was willing to do it if it really did sound best.

This combination did sound pretty good overall for a while. But I got curious and, after learning everything I did while experimenting with the center channel target curve, I listened to some music and found that it actually did have the same issues that voices in movies used to have, for certain songs -- details in "S" and "Th" sounds, among plenty of others, were significantly lowered and did make it difficult to make out what words the singer was saying sometimes. But simply running harrisu Center 5 on the LR speakers still sounded a tad too bright, so I took the most natural looking curve I could come up with that was in between my C and LR curves and came up with a new LCR curve, called harrisu LCR 9. This curve is practically the same as the C curve up to 10 kHz, since I didn't want to ruin the balance I achieved for voices -- it just rolls off slightly steeper after 10 kHz. I loaded harrisu LCR 9 on my LCR speakers and found that I finally ended up with one curve that sounds right for both music and movies. It has been a long week!

Here are the curves I'm using now. As I mentioned, I'm running the same harrisu Sub curve but I'm simply running the sub trim hot to get more bass. We'll see if I don't start tweaking something again tomorrow! But I'm hoping to stick with this for a while so a have a baseline of sound that I'm familiar with before Dirac BMM drops in a few months or so, so I can write about how BMM compares to standard Dirac.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu + pink soda LCR 9
32.0896 2.75769
40.083 2.6215
50.2506 2.44229
63.0125 2.23362
80.157 2.01211
100.1 1.80436
130.174 1.70901
159.492 1.55286
200.111 1.41443
250.087 1.20893
320.564 1.02505
400.744 0.8054
500.978 0.63119
629.207 0.40589
805.584 0.20254
1002.19 0.00611
1297.95 -0.2273
1600.76 -0.45981
2003.87 -0.62739
2500.77 -0.862
3200.31 -1.15972
4002.06 -1.41224
5000.59 -1.90211
6304.49 -2.52247
8009.01 -3.30868
10012.8 -4.3282
13020.6 -6.00538
16013.6 -7.60205
20007.5 -10.0086

Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu Sub
20.7069 7.87275
29.3124 7.87275
47.0001 6.4592
80.157 2.01211
100.1 1.80436
130.174 1.70901
159.492 1.55286
200.111 1.41443
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Last edited by pink soda; 02-11-2020 at 06:56 AM.
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post #1463 of 2703 Old 02-11-2020, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by wilbur_the_goose View Post
Darn iPhone! Corrected.

I like using hockey pucks to separate equipment. They are cheap, solid, and effective.

I’m using 3 hockey pucks stacked under the HTP-1 in 4 spots to elevate it and encourage air flow.




How many hockey games did you go to before you got enough pucks for that?
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post #1464 of 2703 Old 02-11-2020, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
NAD does round trim levels albeit DL reporting them at higher precision. That can cause errors up to 1dB.
If NAD's granularity is 1 dB, wouldn't the max error be 0.5 dB?

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post #1465 of 2703 Old 02-11-2020, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
If NAD's granularity is 1 dB, wouldn't the max error be 0.5 dB?
Worst case example would be DL reporting 5.5dB and 5.4dB. Speakers end up at 6dB and 5dB.

Now DL could handle such cases intelligently and reduce the error. Have to ask them if they could implement that. Or, maybe they are already doing it?

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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Worst case example would be DL reporting 5.5dB and 5.4dB. Speakers end up at 6dB and 5dB.

Exactly.



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post #1467 of 2703 Old 02-11-2020, 08:41 AM
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Exactly.



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So the worst case error is 0.9dB which is quite a lot and will audibly shift phantom sources by about 8%.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pink soda View Post
I spent the past week continuing to refine target curves and your advice about flatter midrange was very helpful. I applied that logic to the curve I posted earlier and continued to get better results, until I settled on something for a while. I called this curve, RoomFeel Rolloff 10. But as I listened to a wider variety of music, I couldn't help but feel like something was off on some genres like rock and metal. They had plenty of bass but they sounded awfully dull.

So I got curious and actually loaded your target curve exactly as-is. I called this curve, harrisu. This had less bass, as expected, and I found the treble slightly bright on female vocals on my system, but the dullness of rock and metal was fixed compared to RoomFeel Rolloff 10, and the overall balance of instruments was significantly improved on tracks with female vocals and a lot of other instruments and chaos going on. The vocals sounded drowned out in RoomFeel Rolloff 10 compared to harrisu, where they were front and center as they should be. And being able to have an instant comparison, it was obvious how muffled rock and metal sounded on RoomFeel Rolloff 10 compared to harrisu. I must have killed too much treble on RoomFeel Rolloff 10.

So I abandoned RoomFell Rolloff 10 and started making refinements to the harrisu curve. For bass, with an 80 Hz crossover, which clearly looked like the best crossover to use for harrisu, I found it easiest to just run the bass trim hot to get the bass levels that I wanted -- that way I don't run into issues with Dirac running out of headroom to boost. I ended up running the subwoofer trim about 4 dB hot to get the bass to where I wanted it -- I achieved this by just using the gain knobs on the subwoofers themselves and measuring the results in REW, loading the target curve in REW as well to compare.

I had to spend a lot more time on treble. Knowing how dreadful rock could sound if I rolled off treble too much now, I tried adding heavy rolloffs to harrisu starting at around 8 kHz to get female vocals to sound natural and not overly sharp and ear piercing. Rolling off as late as 8 kHz, instead of something like 1 kHz, allowed me to still tame female voice harshness while not destroying the energy in rock music. Even at 8 kHz and beyond I had to be careful not to destroy the sounds of high frequency details coming from things like cymbals.

I finally got something that sounded pleasant for female vocals in music without completely dulling the sound of rock, and while the steep and heavy rolloff after 8kHz I settled on made me nervous, I was willing to stick with it if it really did sound best. So I loaded the updated curve called harrisu Rolloff 3 to my LCR speakers and spent some time listening to this for a few days.

And then my next issue became apparent: while music sounded fine across a variety of genres, voices in movies sounded veiled and muffled. I didn't realize how much high frequency content exists in human speech, even male voices. Things like the sound of an "S" or "Th" extend up to 8-10 kHz and harrisu Rolloff 3 practically removed the details in these sounds and made it sound like everyone was talking behind a heavy curtain. But of course, if the levels at 8-10 kHz are too high then voices sound unbearably sharp because these sounds are overemphasized.

So I spent another several iterations trying to find the right balance in voices, across a wide variety of content, and landed on a separate curve with a different treble rolloff... just for voices in the center channel called, harrisu Center 5. The rolloff was much more shallow compared to the one I settled on for LR/music. Again, running a different curve for center/movies vs LR/music made me slightly uncomfortable but I was willing to do it if it really did sound best.

This combination did sound pretty good overall for a while. But I got curious and, after learning everything I did while experimenting with the center channel target curve, I listened to some music and found that it actually did have the same issues that voices in movies used to have, for certain songs -- details in "S" and "Th" sounds, among plenty of others, were significantly lowered and did make it difficult to make out what words the singer was saying sometimes. But simply running harrisu Center 5 on the LR speakers still sounded a tad too bright, so I took the most natural looking curve I could come up with that was in between my C and LR curves and came up with a new LCR curve, called harrisu LCR 9. This curve is practically the same as the C curve up to 10 kHz, since I didn't want to ruin the balance I achieved for voices -- it just rolls off slightly steeper after 10 kHz. I loaded harrisu LCR 9 on my LCR speakers and found that I finally ended up with one curve that sounds right for both music and movies. It has been a long week!

Here are the curves I'm using now. As I mentioned, I'm running the same harrisu Sub curve but I'm simply running the sub trim hot to get more bass. We'll see if I don't start tweaking something again tomorrow! But I'm hoping to stick with this for a while so a have a baseline of sound that I'm familiar with before Dirac BMM drops in a few months or so, so I can write about how BMM compares to standard Dirac.
That's a lot of work put into getting the curve you want . Here is the sad part. A couple weeks after, you might find something wrong and back to tweaking the curve . Let's hope it doesn't get there. Do you have a dedicated listening room? I mean do you have the room treatments in place. You can only get so far with tweaking the curve but its the room you are listening through. Austis Jerry's @JerryAustin;guide on REW has a very nice pic on the first page that shows that the Room treatment is the most important part of all this. I agree 100%. If you are a very critical listener which I believe you are, you need to them make sure your room is treated very well.

Based on what I read here on AVS and other placed, I treated my room heavily but ended up putting too many absorbers (a common mistake). Then got into making the room pitch black using black velvet for projector which also absorbs all the high frequencies. Kept it like this for a year until I read up on Mike's Home Theater of the month article here and saw how many diffusers were used along with absorbers and how keeping the room alive was a critical target. Nyal did the acoustic treatment in his room. I started exploring and came across Nyal's + Home Theater Geek episodes from Girmanni and they all emphasized on keeping the room alive and making sure not to over doing the treatment. The perfect balance is what they were all discussing. Sooooo, I started all over again and removed all the absorptive panels and slowing add them with mixture of diffusers. Now I'm 90% done and I can tell you the difference is HUGE. The sound is much more alive and immersive.

Point is that the room treatment can make the sound so different in your room. These curve tweaks are good to have but I'd first get the room working well and then tweak the FR to get even better results.
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post #1469 of 2703 Old 02-11-2020, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
So the worst case error is 0.9dB which is quite a lot and will audibly shift phantom sources by about 8%.
I do not understand why it would ever exceed 0.5 dB. As illustrated in your own post, 0.4 and 0.5 dB error.

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post #1470 of 2703 Old 02-11-2020, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I do not understand why it would ever exceed 0.5 dB. As illustrated in your own post, 0.4 and 0.5 dB error.

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Oh, I see, 0.9 dB total offset between those two channels. Agree.

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