The official Dirac Live thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 1106 Old 04-19-2020, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post
Why doesn’t Dirac do real measurements again after it shows you the predicted target curve ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
They don't match for the very same reason you just mentioned, mic placement. When I run a single point optimization and remeasure without the mic being moving, the measured results are virtually identical.
I present the following data to support the single-point predicted response hypothesis, and hopefully to convince @blake that expecting Dirac to conduct post-calibration measurements is really not necessary.

Test methodology:

- Single-point Dirac calibration with mic in the MLP.
- Bass management turned off in the MiniDSP 88A, all speakers full-range
- REW measurements presented in 1/12 smoothing (closest match to DLCT smoothing, AFAICT), except for the LFE, which is unsmoothed. Mic is not moved from the position from which the Dirac measurements were made.
- The LPF for LFE in the AVR was untouched (120Hz), which is why the REW LFE measurements show roll-off above 120Hz. Dirac does not see the LPF.

I am presenting only the left channel and the LFE measurements. I have the right and center measurements as well, but this post was already getting pretty long. How about that LFE measurement with Dirac correction?
















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post #32 of 1106 Old 04-19-2020, 12:28 PM
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Re the necessity for a post-calibration measurement, what about the blend between the subs and mains - does Dirac measure them together so it can adjust phase/levels to combine them properly?

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post #33 of 1106 Old 04-19-2020, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Re the necessity for a post-calibration measurement, what about the blend between the subs and mains - does Dirac measure them together so it can adjust phase/levels to combine them properly?
Not in the current versions. That is one of the deliverables in the upcoming bass management module, ETA unknown.
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post #34 of 1106 Old 04-19-2020, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Not in the current versions. That is one of the deliverables in the upcoming bass management module, ETA unknown.
StormAudio apparently delivered it this week.
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post #35 of 1106 Old 04-19-2020, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Not in the current versions. That is one of the deliverables in the upcoming bass management module, ETA unknown.

Then I'm surprised that anyone, especially the very picky markus, asserts that post-EQ measurement isn't necessary to verify the predicted results.
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post #36 of 1106 Old 04-19-2020, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Then I'm surprised that anyone, especially the very picky markus, asserts that post-EQ measurement isn't necessary to verify the predicted results.
That's a different topic. If you want to answer how speakers interact after calibration then you have to measure. DL does single speaker correction only. The upcoming "Bass Control" feature will also optimize the crossover splice between sub(s) and sats.
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post #37 of 1106 Old 04-19-2020, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Then I'm surprised that anyone, especially the very picky markus, asserts that post-EQ measurement isn't necessary to verify the predicted results.
Because predicted results do not reflect interactions between speakers and subs. No one is saying post-EQ measurements are not recommended. But unless you perform an exercise like the one I reported on several posts earlier, the post-EQ measurements are something entirely different from Dirac predicted results.
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post #38 of 1106 Old 04-19-2020, 03:23 PM
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Fair enough.

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post #39 of 1106 Old 04-19-2020, 06:32 PM
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As did I and shipment was very quick. However with the greatly reduced number of flights from the Hong Kong to the US today I suspect transit time is going be longer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
I ordered my Umik-1 directly from MiniDSP and had it shipped to the States.

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post #40 of 1106 Old 04-19-2020, 11:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
- REW measurements presented in 1/12 smoothing (closest match to DLCT smoothing, AFAICT)
Try 1/24.

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post #41 of 1106 Old 04-20-2020, 06:20 AM
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Is Dirac Live applicable to 2-channel systems (either 2.0 or 2.1)?
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post #42 of 1106 Old 04-20-2020, 07:01 AM
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Is Dirac Live applicable to 2-channel systems (either 2.0 or 2.1)?
Yes.
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post #43 of 1106 Old 04-20-2020, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mraub View Post
As did I and shipment was very quick. However with the greatly reduced number of flights from the Hong Kong to the US today I suspect transit time is going be longer.
I ordered one Friday and they haven't even processed my order yet... Your right, this might take a while

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post #44 of 1106 Old 04-21-2020, 01:11 PM
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@markus767 hope all is well and great idea with this thread!

1. Do you happen to have the link for your harman boosts 4,6,8,10dB? I only have the roomfell one.

Also, could you help me make sure I’️m doing something right: when I want to run a calibration and edit it so the height speakers are 3-4 dB louder, I have been Applying the same curve (say flat or roomfell) And then just dragging all the areas on the height group up by 3-4 AT ALL THE PLACES OF THE CURVE THAT HAVE THE DOTS....is that correct and best? Will it be more accurate now if I do it again with the latest software?

2. Also, I know it’️s ideal to rerun Dirac with new software update but does it tend to work when applying new curves with old saved projects on newer software?

3. (For everyone)-has anyone else had a problem with installing the new software other then the one guy that bricked his? Is the newest software indeed fixed the gain issues?

Thanks for the help!

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post #45 of 1106 Old 04-21-2020, 11:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
@markus767 hope all is well and great idea with this thread!

1. Do you happen to have the link for your harman boosts 4,6,8,10dB? I only have the roomfell one.

Also, could you help me make sure I’️m doing something right: when I want to run a calibration and edit it so the height speakers are 3-4 dB louder, I have been Applying the same curve (say flat or roomfell) And then just dragging all the areas on the height group up by 3-4 AT ALL THE PLACES OF THE CURVE THAT HAVE THE DOTS....is that correct and best? Will it be more accurate now if I do it again with the latest software?

2. Also, I know it’️s ideal to rerun Dirac with new software update but does it tend to work when applying new curves with old saved projects on newer software?

3. (For everyone)-has anyone else had a problem with installing the new software other then the one guy that bricked his? Is the newest software indeed fixed the gain issues?

Thanks for the help!
1. Please see links in post 1 for target curves. Don't use target curves for overall boosting of speakers as the redirected bass to the subwoofer does not get boosted by the same amount.

2. Should work with old measurements.

3. The DL gain compensation algorithm bug is fixed in DL 2.5 and later.
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post #46 of 1106 Old 04-22-2020, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
@markus767 hope all is well and great idea with this thread!

1. Do you happen to have the link for your harman boosts 4,6,8,10dB? I only have the roomfell one.

Also, could you help me make sure I’m doing something right: when I want to run a calibration and edit it so the height speakers are 3-4 dB louder, I have been Applying the same curve (say flat or roomfell) And then just dragging all the areas on the height group up by 3-4 AT ALL THE PLACES OF THE CURVE THAT HAVE THE DOTS....is that correct and best? Will it be more accurate now if I do it again with the latest software?

2. Also, I know it’s ideal to rerun Dirac with new software update but does it tend to work when applying new curves with old saved projects on newer software?

3. (For everyone)-has anyone else had a problem with installing the new software other then the one guy that bricked his? Is the newest software indeed fixed the gain issues?

Thanks for the help!
1. Please see links in post 1 for target curves. Don't use target curves for overall boosting of speakers as the redirected bass to the subwoofer does not get boosted by the same amount.

2. Should work with old measurements.

3. The DL gain compensation algorithm bug is fixed in DL 2.5 and later.
Thanks Markus, I have a couple follow ups for clarity

1. In your answer I didn’t get what you meant about don’t use target curves for overall boosting of speakers As the redirecting bass to the subwoofer doesn’t get boosted by same amount....

I am unclear what I am doing wrong or should be doing differently. I will explain the process I usually do if you could help me please:

A) I run the Dirac multi point and get the flat/default curve (correction) and save it

B) Then, in the heights speaker group only I raise every dot on the chart above where my subwoofer can go (15-16hz) by my desired Amount of 3-4dB and add that into one of my slots

C) I then Go back into the correction stage and add the filter for the room feel curve to ALL MY SPEAKERS INCLUDING SUBS so that they are the same and then I do the same thing to the height speakers of raising them by 3-4dB to the height speakers group only and then add that to a different slot on my NAD


2. Will me correcting my OLD saved projects before the gain algorithm was fixed with the new software Make an improvement even if I don’t rerun the measurements? In other words, since the old way the project was done clearly wasn’t right with the old firmware version, would I get some improvement just changing something and reloading it into a slot without having to actually get out the mic and rerun everything (I know I will do it at a later date with sounds and Umik but kids aren’t at school anymore)

Sorry for the long questions

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post #47 of 1106 Old 04-22-2020, 01:06 PM
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Dirac Db during sweep

Hey guys, I measured again today with Dirac wide sofa. I noticed that for the back-of-the-sofa measurements and the ones most distant from the front left speaker, the bass of that fron during measurements was louder than the right one. I would say that half the sweeps in all positions, the front left had much more bass boom. I could also see that during the measurement (and could hear it as well, that's what caught my attention). Anyone notice something like this? NAD T778

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post #48 of 1106 Old 04-22-2020, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
I ordered my Umik-1 directly from MiniDSP and had it shipped to the States.
Anyone concerned about shipments from Hong Kong during pandemic don't be. I ordered this mic Friday and they delivered it this morning. (Four days) . Simply amazing

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post #49 of 1106 Old 04-22-2020, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stainboy View Post
Hey guys, I measured again today with Dirac wide sofa. I noticed that for the back-of-the-sofa measurements and the ones most distant from the front left speaker, the bass of that fron during measurements was louder than the right one. I would say that half the sweeps in all positions, the front left had much more bass boom. I could also see that during the measurement (and could hear it as well, that's what caught my attention). Anyone notice something like this? NAD T778
The Dirac sweep tones are the same for each speaker, so what you are hearing cannot be caused by Dirac. However, depending on where your speakers are placed in the listening room, and where you are standing when the sweeps are running, you could be hearing more emphasized room-effect bass. You could test this out by running some REW measurements after the calibration has completed.
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post #50 of 1106 Old 04-23-2020, 12:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Thanks Markus, I have a couple follow ups for clarity

1. In your answer I didn’t get what you meant about don’t use target curves for overall boosting of speakers As the redirecting bass to the subwoofer doesn’t get boosted by same amount....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
I am unclear what I am doing wrong or should be doing differently. I will explain the process I usually do if you could help me please:

A) I run the Dirac multi point and get the flat/default curve (correction) and save it

B) Then, in the heights speaker group only I raise every dot on the chart above where my subwoofer can go (15-16hz) by my desired Amount of 3-4dB and add that into one of my slots

C) I then Go back into the correction stage and add the filter for the room feel curve to ALL MY SPEAKERS INCLUDING SUBS so that they are the same and then I do the same thing to the height speakers of raising them by 3-4dB to the height speakers group only and then add that to a different slot on my NAD
Not sure I follow. Please post screenshots.

In any case, the procedure sounds wrong. Please follow the links in post 1.
https://mehlau.net/audio/dirac-live-2/
https://mehlau.net/audio/dirac-live-2-avr-crossover/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
2. Will me correcting my OLD saved projects before the gain algorithm was fixed with the new software Make an improvement even if I don’t rerun the measurements?
Yes.
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post #51 of 1106 Old 04-23-2020, 04:44 AM
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Hi Markus,

I have an AudioControl AVR-7 connected to the following Dali speaker configuration. Am not happy with the current calibration as I find treble to be very low and I have to increase it in the Tone Controls to +9db or more to hear the mid and high frequency sounds clearly but then the music appears thinner with low bass.

Recently Tried the Harman default target curve from the Arcam site with the latest Dirac version. Bass is good. But treble seems to be low and I have to increase the Tone Control on my AudioControl AVR-7 to +4db to +5d to hear the mid and high frequency clearly.

I also visited your site but I am not sure which target curve to use in my case, hence have used Harman Default Target v1_0 for all speakers and surrounds and Large Subwoofer Harman Target v1_0 for the Two subwoofers.

Any inputs or help would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks Markus.

I have following 7.2 configuration connected to the AudioControl AVR-7:
1. Dali Zensor 7 - One Pair (Front Left and Right)
2. Dali Zensor Vokal (Center)
3. Dali Fazon Sat - Two Pairs (4 Speakers- Left and Right Surround + Rear Left and Rear Right Surround))
4. Dali Sub E-9 F - Two Subwoofers

I am also attaching screenshots of the DL filter with Harman curve applied:
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post #52 of 1106 Old 04-23-2020, 07:21 AM
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The un-corrected response of your speakers rolls off naturally above 5KHz, which is not uncommon. The Dirac targets you have shown are actually boosting the high frequencies. Are you saying you hear more high frequencies with Dirac turned off, rather than leaving Dirac on? The graphs do not seem to support this. I don’t see anything unusual happening with your targets.

Edit: There is an experiment you could try. Move the right correction “curtain” down to 5KHz so that there is no Direct correction happening in higher frequencies. Optimize, load the results and give it a listen. Do you still feel the high frequencies are attenuated? If yes, then Dirac is not the cause.

Last edited by AustinJerry; 04-23-2020 at 07:25 AM.
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post #53 of 1106 Old 04-23-2020, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiva Nair View Post
Hi Markus,

I have an AudioControl AVR-7 connected to the following Dali speaker configuration. Am not happy with the current calibration as I find treble to be very low and I have to increase it in the Tone Controls to +9db or more to hear the mid and high frequency sounds clearly but then the music appears thinner with low bass.

Recently Tried the Harman default target curve from the Arcam site with the latest Dirac version. Bass is good. But treble seems to be low and I have to increase the Tone Control on my AudioControl AVR-7 to +4db to +5d to hear the mid and high frequency clearly.

I also visited your site but I am not sure which target curve to use in my case, hence have used Harman Default Target v1_0 for all speakers and surrounds and Large Subwoofer Harman Target v1_0 for the Two subwoofers.

Any inputs or help would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks Markus.

I have following 7.2 configuration connected to the AudioControl AVR-7:
1. Dali Zensor 7 - One Pair (Front Left and Right)
2. Dali Zensor Vokal (Center)
3. Dali Fazon Sat - Two Pairs (4 Speakers- Left and Right Surround + Rear Left and Rear Right Surround))
4. Dali Sub E-9 F - Two Subwoofers

I am also attaching screenshots of the DL filter with Harman curve applied:
You're probably used to the broad peak centered around 6-7kHz. Have the target curve follow the response more closely around that area.

For target curves with a bass boost see links in post 1.

Markus

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Last edited by markus767; 04-23-2020 at 07:32 AM.
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post #54 of 1106 Old 04-23-2020, 07:36 AM
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Yes, of course Markus, good observation. Another approach would be simply not correct above 3Khz, approximately where the HF attenuation starts. It might be appropriate to try both approaches and pick the one that sounds the best.
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post #55 of 1106 Old 04-23-2020, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
You're probably used to the broad peak centered around 6-7kHz. Have the target curve follow the response more closely around that area.

For target curves with a bass boost see links in post 1.
Thanks Markus and team. Am a novice hence do not know how to make the corrections that you have suggested. Is there a target curve that you can help me with so that I can load the same and test. Greatly appreciate your support.
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post #56 of 1106 Old 04-23-2020, 07:46 AM
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A link to a discussion of Dirac Bass Management as implemented on StormAudio, courtesy of @KASOFO .

https://www.avforums.com/threads/dir...ement.2284463/
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post #57 of 1106 Old 04-23-2020, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Shiva Nair View Post
Thanks Markus and team. Am a novice hence do not know how to make the corrections that you have suggested. Is there a target curve that you can help me with so that I can load the same and test. Greatly appreciate your support.
See post 1. Happy reading

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #58 of 1106 Old 04-23-2020, 07:57 AM
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See post 1. Happy reading
Thanks Markus..

For my case, which one do you recommend out of the below:

Target curves for Dirac Live 2.5.2 and later:
+4dB low frequency boost
+6dB low frequency boost
+8dB low frequency boost
+10dB low frequency boost

Thanks.
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post #59 of 1106 Old 04-23-2020, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Shiva Nair View Post
Thanks Markus..

For my case, which one do you recommend out of the below:

Target curves for Dirac Live 2.5.2 and later:
+4dB low frequency boost
+6dB low frequency boost
+8dB low frequency boost
+10dB low frequency boost

Thanks.
Depends on room, listening level and preference. Try them all. Start with the one in the middle so you know in which direction to go.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #60 of 1106 Old 04-23-2020, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiva Nair View Post
Thanks Markus and team. Am a novice hence do not know how to make the corrections that you have suggested. Is there a target curve that you can help me with so that I can load the same and test. Greatly appreciate your support.
Hi,

Just making sure you understand what is being explained. Sometimes it is tough understanding each other. What @AustinJerry and @markus767 are saying is:

On each end(left and right side) you have a vertical curtain. Dragging it will stop Dirac from EQing above(highs) and below(lows)(Left or Right of the line).

If you drag the Right one to the left it will stop EQing your highs(which are to the right). Therefore letting your speakers sound the way they sound without EQ.

So if you don't like the way Dirac sounds with your highs this should give you your speakers and rooms natural sound.

If I am wrong someone better at Dirac can correct me. But this is what I think he didn't understand.
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