The official Dirac Live thread - Page 34 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #991 of 1300 Old 06-30-2020, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Guess that was your C then.

In any case you want to have a crossover around 80Hz to take advantage of the spatially optimized monophonic subwoofer response. That's why anyone would bother with multisub in the first place.
I don't plan to set the crossover at 30hz but it does result in a very smooth splice in DLBC. I tried crossovers from 30hz all the way up to 100hz in 10hz increments and the 70hz crossover Dirac suggested looks the best until I get down to 30hz.
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post #992 of 1300 Old 06-30-2020, 07:39 AM
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The latest response from Dirac support is below. It sounds like I am going to have to play around with my rear sub and see if I can get better results. I can't move the one in the front of the room but can the one in the rear. I have been waiting to get any issues with Dirac Live resolved before moving it around. They also said that getting slightly different results each calculation is expected. DLBC is based on an AI algorithm and has a bit of randomness to it.

"Hi Tony

The dips in the crossover range has to do with the average phase of the bass group and the bass managed group.

When we do the optimization we aim for a low seat-to-seat variation when we design the bass group,
we can do that when you have multiple subwoofers (more degrees of freedom).
But when we optimize the summation in the crossover range we can really optimize on the average response,
instead we try to make the summation between the bass group and the managed group as good as possible in the sweet spot.
This means that the average response will not be completely flat though."
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post #993 of 1300 Old 06-30-2020, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
The latest response from Dirac support is below. It sounds like I am going to have to play around with my rear sub and see if I can get better results. I can't move the one in the front of the room but can the one in the rear. I have been waiting to get any issues with Dirac Live resolved before moving it around. They also said that getting slightly different results each calculation is expected. DLBC is based on an AI algorithm and has a bit of randomness to it.

"Hi Tony

The dips in the crossover range has to do with the average phase of the bass group and the bass managed group.

When we do the optimization we aim for a low seat-to-seat variation when we design the bass group,
we can do that when you have multiple subwoofers (more degrees of freedom).
But when we optimize the summation in the crossover range we can really optimize on the average response,
instead we try to make the summation between the bass group and the managed group as good as possible in the sweet spot.
This means that the average response will not be completely flat though."
Sounds like measuring the response with REW at the MLP might support what Dirac is saying.
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post #994 of 1300 Old 06-30-2020, 07:53 AM
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Sounds like measuring the response with REW at the MLP might support what Dirac is saying.
Yes. I thought about that. I could take a single measurement in the sweet spot to see if the summation is optimized at that position like they say it is.
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post #995 of 1300 Old 06-30-2020, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
Yes. I thought about that. I could take a single measurement in the sweet spot to see if the summation is optimized at that position like they say it is.
Didn't you do a 1 point measurement? If yes, the crossover splice should display as flat in DL.

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post #996 of 1300 Old 06-30-2020, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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"[... ]But when we optimize the summation in the crossover range we can [not] really optimize on the average response,
instead we try to make the summation between the bass group and the managed group as good as possible in the sweet spot.
This means that the average response will not be completely flat though."
While optimizing the MLP is probably what most enthusiasts want, optimizing the average response could be an option. Not sure why they make it sound it wouldn't be feasible.

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post #997 of 1300 Old 06-30-2020, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Didn't you do a 1 point measurement? If yes, the crossover splice should display as flat in DL.
I did a 1 point measurement in Dirac Live and then optimized. I still had big dip in crossover region. That was done in 3.0. I could do another one in 3.0.2 if you want to see it. I have not done any in REW.
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post #998 of 1300 Old 06-30-2020, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
I did a 1 point measurement in Dirac Live and then optimized. I still had big dip in crossover region. That was done in 3.0. I could do another one in 3.0.2 if you want to see it. I have not done any in REW.
Please repeat with 3.0.2. If the dip is still there this is where Dirac's argument would fall flat on its face.

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post #999 of 1300 Old 06-30-2020, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
I had also thought DLBC was going to determine the best crossover filters based on each speaker pair response. Some speakers could get 12db high pass like my smaller sealed surrounds and some like my large fronts 24db. This doesn't seem to be the case though. It looks like DLBC always uses 24db per octave Linkwitz/Riley.
Correct and expected behavior.

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post #1000 of 1300 Old 06-30-2020, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Please repeat with 3.0.2. If the dip is still there this is where Dirac's argument would fall flat on its face.
I will measure tonight and post the results.
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post #1001 of 1300 Old 06-30-2020, 11:11 AM
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Please repeat with 3.0.2. If the dip is still there this is where Dirac's argument would fall flat on its face.
Here you go. I opened the 1 position measurement project I had saved in 3.0.2 and ran full bass optimization. The results are even worse than 3.0.0. This just doesn't seem right to me.
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post #1002 of 1300 Old 06-30-2020, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Here you go. I opened the 1 position measurement project I had saved in 3.0.2 and ran full bass optimization. The results are even worse than 3.0.0. This just doesn't seem right to me.
Thanks, definitely a case for Dirac support at http://helpdesk.dirac.se/

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post #1003 of 1300 Old 06-30-2020, 11:58 AM
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Thanks, definitely a case for Dirac support at http://helpdesk.dirac.se/
Thanks. I have already replied to Dirac support with my measurements. I told them I would send them my 1 position project if they need it.
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post #1004 of 1300 Old 06-30-2020, 12:13 PM
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Thanks, definitely a case for Dirac support at http://helpdesk.dirac.se/
Looking at "upmix only" , it seems the bass channels and managed channels are out of phase with each other prior to optimization. Is Dirac not supposed to determine the correct delay as part of its initial correction?
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post #1005 of 1300 Old 06-30-2020, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
Looking at "upmix only" , it seems the bass channels and managed channels are out of phase with each other prior to optimization.

How much out of phase?

Maybe inverting the polarity of the subs would give a better starting point for Dirac and a better result.

Noah
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post #1006 of 1300 Old 06-30-2020, 12:26 PM
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How much out of phase?

Maybe inverting the polarity of the subs would give a better starting point for Dirac and a better result.
I asked Dirac support about doing that and was told it wasn't necessary because Dirac would take care of it. It may be worth a try though.
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post #1007 of 1300 Old 06-30-2020, 12:28 PM
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Maybe inverting the polarity of the subs would give a better starting point for Dirac and a better result.
This shouldn’t be so difficult. We should be able to run Dirac and just have it work as it is supposed to. The fact that it doesn’t work correctly means it is not ready for prime time, IMO. Very disappointing.
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post #1008 of 1300 Old 07-01-2020, 11:27 AM
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If I don’t have a module with the bass correction and just want to use Dirac as is, should I hold off updating to the new software before doing another measurement? Or is the problems people getting ONLY applying to the new bass correction and not the usual measurements?

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post #1009 of 1300 Old 07-01-2020, 11:51 AM
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If I don’t have a module with the bass correction and just want to use Dirac as is, should I hold off updating to the new software before doing another measurement? Or is the problems people getting ONLY applying to the new bass correction and not the usual measurements?
Go ahead do your usual measurements and filter design. Just leave the bass optimization off. Considering you don't have DLBC, you may not even see that option in the filter design section.

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post #1010 of 1300 Old 07-02-2020, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Are you referring to the subwoofer level in the screenshot? That should also be in the green zone.
Please post screenshots from DL once you have the necessary post count here.
...a quick update on this, purely for future reference, should anyone else finds themselves in the same position.

I bit the bullet and ordered a UMIK-1, which arrived today. ...and the issue is completely resolved! I suspected the included ARCAM mic right from the start, but I had no idea just how bad it was.

Okay, I understand that the quality of an included calibration mic is going to be lower than one bought for £100, but I would say that the one in with my amp isn't "fit for purpose." Not only is the calibration level of the sub improved by around 20db (!), with all the obvious knock on effects on the sub level set by Dirac, but the imaging (distance delay and level) on all speakers is vastly improved too.

Maybe I got a duff mic, but it makes me weep to think that people could pay what I paid for that amp only for their Dirac to be completely crucified by the abysmal mic included with the unit. Shocking.
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post #1011 of 1300 Old 07-02-2020, 02:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Maybe I got a duff mic, but it makes me weep to think that people could pay what I paid for that amp only for their Dirac to be completely crucified by the abysmal mic included with the unit. Shocking.
Thanks for reporting back. You could run a couple of measurements with REW and see if the Arcam mic gives consistent results and how it deviates from the UMIK-1.
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post #1012 of 1300 Old 07-02-2020, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Neil Palfreyman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Are you referring to the subwoofer level in the screenshot? That should also be in the green zone.
Please post screenshots from DL once you have the necessary post count here.
...a quick update on this, purely for future reference, should anyone else finds themselves in the same position.

I bit the bullet and ordered a UMIK-1, which arrived today. ...and the issue is completely resolved! I suspected the included ARCAM mic right from the start, but I had no idea just how bad it was.

Okay, I understand that the quality of an included calibration mic is going to be lower than one bought for £100, but I would say that the one in with my amp isn't "fit for purpose." Not only is the calibration level of the sub improved by around 20db (!), with all the obvious knock on effects on the sub level set by Dirac, but the imaging (distance delay and level) on all speakers is vastly improved too.

Maybe I got a duff mic, but it makes me weep to think that people could pay what I paid for that amp only for their Dirac to be completely crucified by the abysmal mic included with the unit. Shocking.
I can verify your mic findings. I have an X7 with no issues using Dirac. I did change the mic to the UMIK-1 right from the start. This very well could be the problem other users are experiencing.
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post #1013 of 1300 Old 07-02-2020, 07:56 AM
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I can verify your mic findings. I have an X7 with no issues using Dirac. I did change the mic to the UMIK-1 right from the start. This very well could be the problem other users are experiencing.
In case I haven't mentioned it, I am using a UMIK-1 not the Arcam microphone. I don't think the microphone has anything to do with the issues I am seeing in Dirac 3.0.
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post #1014 of 1300 Old 07-02-2020, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Of all the Dirac plots I've seen, I do not recall ever seeing the corrected response of a given speaker (or subwoofer) after the crossover filter has been applied. It should look like a Linkwitz-Riley HP or LP filter, right? Is that something the Dirac menu can display? That would be useful in diagnosing this "crossover dip" issue.
I don't think there is a way to see the individual speakers response with the crossover filter. Once you turn on DLBC, you can't see the speakers response without the subs added. The results are shown with the bass channels added.

I am thinking maybe it is an issue with the filter. I took a single position measurement of my center channel and show the results below with "upmix only" so no multi sub optimization has been done. Given that my center channel shows corrected results pretty flat to 70hz and my sub results show flat to about 400hz, I don't think adding a 24db per octave Linkwitz/Riley crossover an octave above my center channel rolloff should cause any dips/phase problems but it does.
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post #1015 of 1300 Old 07-02-2020, 12:32 PM
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Mic Position Question

I haven't worked with measurements in Dirac for some time now, but I've made a change to my system that necessitates re-measuring. I worked with Dirac 3.0 last weekend, and I'm going to do some more measurements this weekend. I'm looking at taking measurements from 9 positions. I understand the first measurement is the most critical, and should be done right at the MLP with the microphone right at ear level. I cannot tell from the Dirac diagrams if the subsequent measurements should also be at ear level, or above and below ear level. From the diagrams it looks like the latter, with the measurements at the front of the chair below ear level, and the measurements at the back of the chair above ear level. Am I interpreting that correctly?

During normal listening the seat backs on my chairs block a bit of the side and rear surrounds. Does it make sense to measure with the seat backs reclined, allowing a more direct line of sight, or in the upright position, where they will be when I am listening?
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post #1016 of 1300 Old 07-02-2020, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I haven't worked with measurements in Dirac for some time now, but I've made a change to my system that necessitates re-measuring. I worked with Dirac 3.0 last weekend, and I'm going to do some more measurements this weekend. I'm looking at taking measurements from 9 positions. I understand the first measurement is the most critical, and should be done right at the MLP with the microphone right at ear level. I cannot tell from the Dirac diagrams if the subsequent measurements should also be at ear level, or above and below ear level. From the diagrams it looks like the latter, with the measurements at the front of the chair below ear level, and the measurements at the back of the chair above ear level. Am I interpreting that correctly?
The pictures and description given within the software are pretty unambiguous. No?

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During normal listening the seat backs on my chairs block a bit of the side and rear surrounds. Does it make sense to measure with the seat backs reclined, allowing a more direct line of sight, or in the upright position, where they will be when I am listening?
Leave as is as this is how you listen.

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post #1017 of 1300 Old 07-02-2020, 12:47 PM
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Well, if the pictures and descriptions given within the software were pretty unambiguous, then I wouldn't ask the question. I haven't been able to find a single reference anywhere as to whether the mic should be at ear level for the subsequent measurements. It's a pretty simple question. No?
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post #1018 of 1300 Old 07-02-2020, 12:57 PM
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Well, if the pictures and descriptions given within the software were pretty unambiguous, then I wouldn't ask the question. I haven't been able to find a single reference anywhere as to whether the mic should be at ear level for the subsequent measurements. It's a pretty simple question. No?
Th first position is at ear level. The other 8 are above and below if following the 9 position reccomendations.
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post #1019 of 1300 Old 07-02-2020, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, if the pictures and descriptions given within the software were pretty unambiguous, then I wouldn't ask the question. I haven't been able to find a single reference anywhere as to whether the mic should be at ear level for the subsequent measurements. It's a pretty simple question. No?
Once you are in the "Measure" tab you'll see this (example shows "Focused Imaging" suggestion):



This is what you get when you open the in-app help:



Not sure why you're confused what to do?
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post #1020 of 1300 Old 07-02-2020, 01:10 PM
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Well, if the pictures and descriptions given within the software were pretty unambiguous, then I wouldn't ask the question. I haven't been able to find a single reference anywhere as to whether the mic should be at ear level for the subsequent measurements. It's a pretty simple question. No?
Four of the subsequent measurement positions are higher than ear level, and four are lower than ear level. Recommendations are 6” to 12” higher and lower. And I disagree with Markus—you should try and maintain line-of-sight between the tip of the mic and all speakers during the measurements. IIRC, this is also the recommendation from Dirac.
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