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post #31 of 57 Old 05-20-2020, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
So I may be going with Nord then. Trying to determine which modules I should get based on power vs. money: shell out more for the 500w modules or is 250w enough?
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Originally Posted by spacecowboy View Post
Same dilemma for me. 3-channel vs 5-channel. 500W vs 200W. My 5 Klipsch floorstanders are pretty efficient. My Yamaha 3070 should power the 4 Atmos channels sufficiently.

I would very much imagine that the lower power units will be plenty. However, if you are the type that is always left wondering what if/second guessing....well, then maybe the higher power units would be better for you, then you will never be left wondering if you have enough power. Then, it's just buyer's remorse for maybe having spent a bit too much. I have found that buyer's remorse passes more quickly.....


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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
Besides pricing the other differences between the three companies are the enclosure sizes and the cooling:

KJF Audio
Size: Width 450 mm, Height 90 mm, Depth 350 mm
Max loadout: 3x NC502MP (6 channels) or 4x NC252MP (8 channels)
Cooling - Active, temperature controlled
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
The smaller size and active cooling of KJF has me still leaning towards them. The price actually evens out mostly once shipping is included. I think it'll come down to whoever has stock when I am ready to order.

I do like the idea of active cooling, and it can't hurt as long as it's quiet. In a cabinet? Probably O.K. In the open air? That'd be my only concern, though I'd like to think this won't be an issue, and if it was, would only be one at really low volumes.
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post #32 of 57 Old 05-20-2020, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
I would very much imagine that the lower power units will be plenty. However, if you are the type that is always left wondering what if/second guessing....well, then maybe the higher power units would be better for you, then you will never be left wondering if you have enough power. Then, it's just buyer's remorse for maybe having spent a bit too much. I have found that buyer's remorse passes more quickly.....

I do like the idea of active cooling, and it can't hurt as long as it's quiet. In a cabinet? Probably O.K. In the open air? That'd be my only concern, though I'd like to think this won't be an issue, and if it was, would only be one at really low volumes.

Yea, I've decided to do the (3) 500w modules and (2) 250w modules so I'll have a 5-channel amp to last me no matter what setup I may have.

Regarding the cooling, the specs for the fans he is using are listed as under 20dba at full load, so it should be fine.
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post #33 of 57 Old 05-20-2020, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Yea, I've decided to do the (3) 500w modules and (2) 250w modules so I'll have a 5-channel amp to last me no matter what setup I may have.

Regarding the cooling, the specs for the fans he is using are listed as under 20dba at full load, so it should be fine.

Sounds good! Look forward to hearing what you think about the amp once you've got it up and running.

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post #34 of 57 Old 05-20-2020, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by grunt66 View Post
Back in 2014 I became interested in the class D amps. Attending a high end audio show (The Show) in Southern California I went to listen to a class D amp company called Red Dragon audio. Before attending I was already using two Emotiva amps (XPA-2 and XPA-3). I wanted to reduce the overall heat in my room and I wanted an amp with more power to feed my Mirage OMD-28's (front L/R speakers) They have a sensitivity of 87db and need power. At the time I was using a Denon 4311 as my AVR. I am now currently using an Arcam AVR-850. Attending the audio show on Sunday (last day) Red Dragon audion had already packed up and left the show. I then came across Wyred 4 Sound and I had a chance to audition the ST-1000MKII and they sold me the one they had at the show for a nice savings. I still use that Wyred 4 Sound amp to this day connected to my Arcam. What I like about class D and Wyred 4 Sound, lower heat (next to none), light weight, the added power made the sub's in the OMD-28's come to life. I have read many good things about D-Sonic amps as well. You may want to look the offerings from ATI class D amps.
I also have mirage omd-28, I am currently powering them with an emotiva xpa-5. These speakers measure flat to 20hz in my setup with room gain. Music is a high priority in my setup so I usually run the speakers full range without my subs active. I have never been able to get a a smooth blend with my subs because the speakers aren't rolling off at all and the crossover slopes in typical equipment don't match( typically 24db/octave low pass and 12 db/octave high pass). This mismatch causes too much overlap in the frequencies being played by the 28s and my subs.

I have been considering a few options to improve my setup. I could add a minidsp to get the correct high pass filter slope. That would insert an ADA conversion and the minidsp does't measure all that great. I also was considering one of the crown class D amps. It would give the benefit of both more powerful amplification and built in high pass filter. The crown would also add an ADA and doesn't measure that well. The other option would be to add one of the amps being discussed in this thread. They measure better and avoid the ADA but i would still be running the OMD-28 full range and that goes against conventional AVS wisdom. I have dual subwoofers in a 7.2.4 setup with a marantz 8805. I use subwoofers for the LFE track in movies and cross the other speakers in my setup (smaller mirage sealed speakers from the OMD line) over to them.

Do you guys think add a more powerful class D amp and leaving things as currently configured would be a significant upgrade? Would i be better off to add something like the mindsp and crossover to my subs?


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post #35 of 57 Old 05-20-2020, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
Do you guys think add a more powerful class D amp and leaving things as currently configured would be a significant upgrade? Would i be better off to add something like the mindsp and crossover to my subs?
Get a processor that supports Dirac Live Bass Management and your speaker to sub blend will be taken care of. The Monoprice HTP-1 is one of the processors that will get DLBC in the near future.

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post #36 of 57 Old 05-20-2020, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
Do you guys think add a more powerful class D amp and leaving things as currently configured would be a significant upgrade? Would i be better off to add something like the mindsp and crossover to my subs?
Well, I don't think you'd hurt anything (except maybe your wallet....), but your experience could be anything from no (audible) improvement, to just an incremental one that may or may not be worth the extra expense, to being a very good move. Only you will be able to tell. It's not unusual to see commentary about additional power enhancing a system or one's particular speakers. At least perceived.

I will let you make of this what you will, but this is a recent comment from a forum member in the D-Sonic thread:

"I changed from XPA-DR3 and XPA-5 gen2 to D-Sonic and never regret is an awesome amplifier and I'm looking to buy another one for the atmos channels as I'm currently using a Creston 16x60 just because of budget, decided to buy more subs first."

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post #37 of 57 Old 05-20-2020, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
Well, I don't think you'd hurt anything (except maybe your wallet....), but your experience could be anything from no (audible) improvement, to just an incremental one that may or may not be worth the extra expense, to being a very good move. Only you will be able to tell. It's not unusual to see commentary about additional power enhancing a system or one's particular speakers. At least perceived.

I will let you make of this what you will, but this is a recent comment from a forum member in the D-Sonic thread:

"I changed from XPA-DR3 and XPA-5 gen2 to D-Sonic and never regret is an awesome amplifier and I'm looking to buy another one for the atmos channels as I'm currently using a Creston 16x60 just because of budget, decided to buy more subs first."
That´s me and yes more power make things more dynamic and can get less distortion to achieve the same loud
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post #38 of 57 Old 05-20-2020, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
Get a processor that supports Dirac Live Bass Management and your speaker to sub blend will be taken care of. The Monoprice HTP-1 is one of the processors that will get DLBC in the near future.

If I didn’t already have the 8805, that is the direction I would go. I would take a significant loss selling the 8805 and I haven’t seen anything that is getting the Dirac bass management for less than about 4K. I’m pretty sure the multi sub option is additional dollars on top of most of these pre pros too.


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post #39 of 57 Old 05-20-2020, 04:26 PM
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Well, I don't think you'd hurt anything (except maybe your wallet....), but your experience could be anything from no (audible) improvement, to just an incremental one that may or may not be worth the extra expense, to being a very good move. Only you will be able to tell. It's not unusual to see commentary about additional power enhancing a system or one's particular speakers. At least perceived.

I will let you make of this what you will, but this is a recent comment from a forum member in the D-Sonic thread:

"I changed from XPA-DR3 and XPA-5 gen2 to D-Sonic and never regret is an awesome amplifier and I'm looking to buy another one for the atmos channels as I'm currently using a Creston 16x60 just because of budget, decided to buy more subs first."

Thanks. I’m trying to justify by telling myself I need another amp if I want to add top middles down the road anyway.


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post #40 of 57 Old 05-20-2020, 04:28 PM
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Hypex Ncore vs. ICEpower ASX2 vs. Pascal

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Originally Posted by juanchibiris View Post
That´s me and yes more power make things more dynamic and can get less distortion to achieve the same loud

I am sorta thinking along the same lines. Even if the differences in stereo are subtle maybe it would improve my headroom and dynamics for home theater use.

I’m going to post this over in the 2 channel forum to see if those guys have any opinions.


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post #41 of 57 Old 05-21-2020, 11:37 AM
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Which Hypex nCore modules did you get?
My multi-channel Nord Accoustics uses the Hypex NC502MP (qty 2) and Hypex NC500MP (qty 1) for a total of 5 channels.
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post #42 of 57 Old 05-22-2020, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Classe Audio Amp5

In my quest to find a small yet powerful 5ch amp I have decided on something using Class D technology. Was nearly set on a custom option from either Nord or a new business called KJF Audio.

However, I just came across a used Classe Audio Amp5 that is in my price range. I know this is a brand who has many products considered as "audiophile" and is usually rather expensive. But being a Class D amp, wasn't sure the thoughts on it/impressions.

Also, is it their own proprietary technology or built around something like ICE or Hypex?
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post #43 of 57 Old 05-22-2020, 12:50 PM
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I think classe went out of business...so maybe no support???? https://listenup.com/shop-products/e...anufacturer=13

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post #44 of 57 Old 05-22-2020, 12:55 PM
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also the Amp5 is odd in that it only has XLR connections for channel 1 &2. Channels 3,4, and 5 use RCA

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FS: Funk Audio 21.0LX Subwoofer
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post #45 of 57 Old 05-22-2020, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
I think classe went out of business...so maybe no support???? https://listenup.com/shop-products/e...anufacturer=13

From what I read they closed down in 2017, but was then bought out beginning of 2018 with plans to reopen their Montreal location and re-hire many of their former employees. They were present at CES.


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also the Amp5 is odd in that it only has XLR connections for channel 1 &2. Channels 3,4, and 5 use RCA

I saw that but that is perfectly fine for my use.
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post #46 of 57 Old 05-22-2020, 03:19 PM
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Going from 120 watts to 200 isn't much of a difference. You were looking at 500 watts for the front 3.

What difference do you expect going from 120 to 200?

I suggest you go with the Nord or KJF, that should put an end to upgrading amps.

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post #47 of 57 Old 05-22-2020, 03:49 PM
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if you ever get a 4ohm speaker and like to turn it up for movies or music....you probably gonna want more than 200w. my rotel integrated is 200w and I lose about 4db in spl compared to my nad amps bridged(600-1200 watts however nad measures). in my setup thats like 90db to 94db...my focals do well over 100db

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post #48 of 57 Old 05-22-2020, 04:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post
Going from 120 watts to 200 isn't much of a difference. You were looking at 500 watts for the front 3.

What difference do you expect going from 120 to 200?

I suggest you go with the Nord or KJF, that should put an end to upgrading amps.
I just wasn't sure if the setup/technology/implementation Classe used brought something to the table worthy of paying for.
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post #49 of 57 Old 05-23-2020, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Another thing I have found while reading about Class D amps, at least at the time of the Amp5 being made (2015), is Dead Band Time and how too large of a time frame can cause noticeable distortion. Being from 2015, the Sigma Amp5 claims to nearly overcome Dead Band Time. How do newer Class D modules like Hypex Ncore and the newest ICEpower's stack up? I tried looking at comprehensive specs but couldn't find the answer.
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post #50 of 57 Old 05-23-2020, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Correct me if I am wrong, but since the enter power supply circuitry is built-in into each Ncore module, there is no limitation of power draw when using multiple modules in one build (whether it be Nord or Apollon or KJF)?

What I mean is I was looking at an older Classe Sigma Amp and their design at the time had each channel sharing one power supply, so even though each module (channel) could output 400w, the total maximum overall power all channels combined was 1000w due to power supply limitation. This wouldn't apply to the Ncores since each module has it's own power supply, right?
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post #51 of 57 Old 05-23-2020, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but since the enter power supply circuitry is built-in into each Ncore module, there is no limitation of power draw when using multiple modules in one build (whether it be Nord or Apollon or KJF)?

What I mean is I was looking at an older Classe Sigma Amp and their design at the time had each channel sharing one power supply, so even though each module (channel) could output 400w, the total maximum overall power all channels combined was 1000w due to power supply limitation. This wouldn't apply to the Ncores since each module has it's own power supply, right?

Correct, though there are some modules that are slaved to others and I believe use the master's PS.

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post #52 of 57 Old 05-24-2020, 12:35 AM
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Correct, though there are some modules that are slaved to others and I believe use the master's PS.
This is common with ICEPower modules. All the "MP" nCore modules have their own PS. All the non-MP nCore modules use a separate PS that could be oversubscribed.

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post #53 of 57 Old 05-24-2020, 05:07 AM - Thread Starter
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One other question: what is the dead band time of the Hypex MP Ncore's?

On the detailed spec sheet I found a "Band Time" entry but the value for that was 30ns and from my reading that is actually pretty high and can cause noticeable distortion.

I ask because I was considering an older Classe Sigma Amp and they claimed a dead band time of 3ns which is where I first learned of its importance.
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post #54 of 57 Old 05-24-2020, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
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OP Amps: How do they affect the overall sound?

Been in a deep dive of Class D amp technology this last week as I plan on getting one to power my LCR. I was almost set on a 5ch Hypex Ncore MP module setup but have decided to get a 3ch amp to focus purely on the LCR. This has opened up the search to something like the Nord Acoustics MKII NC500 setup.

However, I don't quite understand how/why the OP amp choice affects the sound? For instance, Nord says that there is a difference between the Sonic Imagery and Sparkos Labs OP amps, with one being more warm and forgiving while the other is more critical and reveals details bettter.

My follow-up would then be: is a Class D module that doesn't use a discrete OP amp, like the Ncore MP series, a better route?
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post #55 of 57 Old 05-27-2020, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Hypex NC500 vs. NC500MP vs. NC400

Nevermind, answered elsewhere

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post #56 of 57 Old 06-02-2020, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
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ATI AT523NC Linear Power Supply?

Still trying to finalize a 3 channel Class D amp but at a bit of a crossroads as the first two routes I wanted to go, which was build my own Hypex NC400 setup or get a Nord NC500 setup, are not supported by my chosen payment method (PayPal Credit).

I have come across a discounted ATI AT523NC amp, which uses the Hypex NC500 modules but also uses a linear power supply instead of a switching power supply. What is the advantage/disadvantage of this? It seems like peak power output is lowered, as the NC500 modules with a 1200 SMPS are rated for around 400w/8ohms but the ATI's are only rated 200w/8ohms.
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post #57 of 57 Old 06-02-2020, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Still trying to finalize a 3 channel Class D amp but at a bit of a crossroads as the first two routes I wanted to go, which was build my own Hypex NC400 setup or get a Nord NC500 setup, are not supported by my chosen payment method (PayPal Credit).

I have come across a discounted ATI AT523NC amp, which uses the Hypex NC500 modules but also uses a linear power supply instead of a switching power supply. What is the advantage/disadvantage of this? It seems like peak power output is lowered, as the NC500 modules with a 1200 SMPS are rated for around 400w/8ohms but the ATI's are only rated 200w/8ohms.
Follow this thread from post #670 onwards

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post58768556

HT - Seymour Centerstage XD 2.39:1 133" W| JVC X790R | JBL SDP-55 | Nord NC500 | ATI AT528NC | Procella P8/P5V | Revel C763L | Monolith 12" x4
Living Room - LG OLED 65" | Denon X4400H | Monolith 3x200 | KEF Q900 L/R | Paradigm Millenia 20 CC | Polk Surrounds | Rythmik FV15HP x2
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