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post #1 of 38 Old 05-26-2020, 12:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Receiver Recommendations

Hi, I was curious about current 2020 recommendations on a good receiver for anywhere between $800-$1,500.

Mainly this will be for competitive gaming. So concerns of input lag is important. I will not pass video through it for this reason, but rather have the audio hit it separately somehow either out the computer directly via Optical... or via HDMI pass through from the monitor ? IDK ?

Looking for 7.1. Need no more than that.

The secondary importance would be for movies (blu-ray or whatever comes out next). Third importance would be music.

I’m a brand dude, and like quality and reliability with reputable company. Been out the game now for 15 years , so need some advice as to where it’s at now. What’s the best in that price range ? Also would like somewhat future proof.

Thanks in advance
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post #2 of 38 Old 05-26-2020, 12:32 AM
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I started my HT journey with Onkyo about 8-10 years ago. At that point I was on the bandwagon of 'poor man' s bose', and when I finally heard bose, I wasn't impressed. From there I switched to yamaha and I can say, it's the best thing I've done. Though it doesn't have a very good bass management out of the box, I used good subs with minidsp to rid of hill and flatten them down to 10Hz. Anything lower is removed through HPF.
Others in competition would be AVR from denon and Marantz. Like you said brand conscious hence I'll stick to these 3.
Denon for me got hot. Like quite literally. Within 10-20 mins of play, I swear I could fry an egg on it. So if you buy a denon make sure it goes in the top rack and also attach a cooling fan system. It needs it more than others. Otherwise it's a powerful AVR.
Marantz I found to be a bit bright. Though it's sound quality is good I just found a shrill thay wasn't pleasing to my ear. The build and quality is nice though.
Also to note Marantz and Denon are Co owned, so a lot of tech and parts are shared between each of them. Not sure of the latest build but generally a 7.1 from Marantz will cost you a bit more. Only research will tell you if it's worth the money.

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post #3 of 38 Old 05-26-2020, 05:57 AM
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@BhootZ What Denon MODEL are you talking about that gets HOT! What year??

Making a blanket statement that Denon's get hot, is not the norm, across their model board. Please explain.

Info on AVR for gaming: https://www.avforums.com/threads/whi...ready.2272012/

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post #4 of 38 Old 05-26-2020, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by teetertotter View Post
@BhootZ What Denon MODEL are you talking about that gets HOT! What year??



Making a blanket statement that Denon's get hot, is not the norm, across their model board. Please explain.
It's common knowledge. Denon runs hot. My friend has a 2600 (I think) he needed to put an aircom8 to blow the air out. Without that he was constantly having overheating and avr turning off. He's running it with a PJ and air conditioner. When I was buying my A3070 I think I checked out the 4400 again hot. Mind you the 4400 has a fan built in the A3070 doesn't. And temps were checked on all sides (top/bottom/sides). Yamaha was cooler
"That home theater dude" while reviewing the denon flagship pre pro said it ran hot.
A lot of people on this forum have also complained about the same thing. While I'm not dishing out judgment to the OP about what he should buy, I still think it's worth being honest about products and that's what I think I did.

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post #5 of 38 Old 05-26-2020, 06:31 AM
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@bootz , Thank you for your explanation and reference. My Denon 2015 model bought in 2016, runs cool, with Cbl box on top for long periods.

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post #6 of 38 Old 05-26-2020, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BhootZ View Post
I started my HT journey with Onkyo about 8-10 years ago. At that point I was on the bandwagon of 'poor man' s bose', and when I finally heard bose, I wasn't impressed. From there I switched to yamaha and I can say, it's the best thing I've done. ***edited, please see original post above for full length post***
Thanks so much for helping me BhootZ ! Good info there. Yea, I hate Bose. They suck. They were good in the early 90's, thats it. I am a pro audio musician, studio engineer and have been for a couple decades now, forgot to mention that. So I know sound. But from a different perspective. In our industry, Bose never even got that "poor mans Bose" rep, cause we never used it in the first place. They have a fake inflated sound to achieve what a inexperienced listener thinks is quality. In my industry thats a super no-no. Flat honest response is best.

Also for me, I go for quality of sound over features. Matter fact, I hate features. I do nothing audio or video wise wireless, bluetooth, etc.. don't like the lag or reliance of cheap D/A conversion in the speakers (unless maybe you spend thousands per speaker, and I'm not doing that). So thats a no go. And several other new age features are just pointless for me.

BUT, at same time, I am a quality dude. True quality, and not fake frequency scoops to make something sound inflated/mistakenly better. I like a flat honest sound from good boutiquey components. The way the recording/producer intended. In this day and age of Optical and HDMI/DisplayPort its ALL about the D/A converter component put inside these things and then the analog path after that. Thats the only thing I want the money I spent on the unit to go to, no features.

I used to be a Marantz dude ! But this was in the 80's. They were the best. I didn't want to say anything to steer the convo or recommendations, but that was the good quality back then. If they got bought out though, I say hell no to that. In all my years of life that NEVER works for either company. So both them brands suck to me now. Thanks for telling me. Venture Capital Corps never work for quality. I've ditched several companies after their quality went downhill so bad only to find they got bought out right beforehand. LOL - Not a coincidence bro.. Not at all.

Yamaha, ?? Wow, funny you mention that - as upon my research, some Yamaha model kept coming up as a great receiver....very surprising to me. As they are such a "do everything" company, and back in my day them companies that only did one thing, did it right. Yamaha was never one of those unless you were buying a Motorcycle. As the YZ125 was my thing baby !!! But ok. Yea a few years ago they came out with decent keyboards and good piano emulators too. So maybe they are ok.

When I looked at it I forget which model, it seemed to be extremely overly feature rich to me. Figured if thats the case, the build quality and components must not be as good as they could be.

Amazing, but from the research and now here, we got Yamaha with 2 votes... everything else with none.

Anyone else got some recommendations ? Like I said, I know I'm not in the super bad ass boutiquey level budget for this (as I need to draw the line on a gaming system, lol) BUT I was hoping there was something out there that left the features out to just concentrate on simple good level components and deliver that to me at my price points. I other words, I'll trade features for slightly more boutiquey components/build level.
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post #7 of 38 Old 05-26-2020, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by teetertotter View Post
Thanks for the link teetertotter. And thanks for chiming in to help.

Issue with that link for me and my exact thread question and situation is... They are casual gamers (using TV's, PS5, etc..) talking about passing video THROUGH the amp first.. This creates massive lag. All my gaming equipment is eSports level, ready.

I use different equipment entirely (don't want to get into that) but its more about the speed/latency in eSports gaming than it is in the visual looks. So anything recommended in that thread would just be a mess. And if you read it, you'll see they are already experiencing issues. lol (its because they are using TV's and passing video through the receiver)

So if you guys don't mind, I'd like to keep this thread alive with recommendations for my personal situation and desires.
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post #8 of 38 Old 05-26-2020, 01:52 PM
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My last 2 receivers have beenYamahas and they have done well for me. My current Yammie is an outdated RX-A3020. The current generation is the RXA3080. I too am looking to buy a new receiver and I have considering Denon and Marantz because they offer what some say is better room correction (important for home theater use). Also, I just wanted to try something different.

But back to your question... my first Yamaha receiver is getting close to 20 years old and it is now performing admirably as my garage stereo... they are built to last, if nothing else.

One thing Yamaha is known for is their DSP programs that make it sound like you’re in some church in some European country... to me... that’s a total gimmick (Does anyone actually use that?) so it does factor into your dislike for features. That aside, Yamaha is solid in my opinion.
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post #9 of 38 Old 05-26-2020, 02:03 PM
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My last 2 receivers have beenYamahas and they have done well for me. My current Yammie is an outdated RX-A3020. The current generation is the RXA3080. I too am looking to buy a new receiver and I have considering Denon and Marantz because they offer what some say is better room correction (important for home theater use). Also, I just wanted to try something different.



But back to your question... my first Yamaha receiver is getting close to 20 years old and it is now performing admirably as my garage stereo... they are built to last, if nothing else.



One thing Yamaha is known for is their DSP programs that make it sound like you’re in some church in some European country... to me... that’s a total gimmick (Does anyone actually use that?) so it does factor into your dislike for features. That aside, Yamaha is solid in my opinion.
I'd only suggest, don't sell the yammy while you're trying the others out. In the 11 channel pure avr (no pre/pro) I've got a lot of friends owning marantz and denon switch to yamaha. Very few have gone with the V series and a lot of them with the 10x0 or 20x0. The dsp do sound like a gimmick but I like a few of them for listening to MP3s. Realized those compressed files hate the straight and outright suck on pure direct. Even a lot of flac and online music apps don't tickle the subs in pure direct, despite my XO at 120Hz (speakers aren't very mid/bass heavy).


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post #10 of 38 Old 05-26-2020, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mustangtexas View Post
My last 2 receivers have beenYamahas and they have done well for me. My current Yammie is an outdated RX-A3020. The current generation is the RXA3080. I too am looking to buy a new receiver and I have considering Denon and Marantz because they offer what some say is better room correction (important for home theater use). Also, I just wanted to try something different.

But back to your question... my first Yamaha receiver is getting close to 20 years old and it is now performing admirably as my garage stereo... they are built to last, if nothing else.

One thing Yamaha is known for is their DSP programs that make it sound like you’re in some church in some European country... to me... that’s a total gimmick (Does anyone actually use that?) so it does factor into your dislike for features. That aside, Yamaha is solid in my opinion.
Hey mustangtexas, thanks for joining in.

Ok, I guess its for sure looking like Yamaha then. lol wow. Ok.. (side note, yes you are totally right, them DSP programs are the exact thing I don't need and never use. Or anything like that).

So if the votes stay Yamaha, now its onto the question of which one ? And why ?

Upon my research, I found the CX models are just out of my budget for this set up.

But the:

RX-A1080
RX-A880
TSR-7850
RX-A780
and
RX-V685

are all within my budget. And they are the 7.1 models I am interested in.

The main different I can find with the higher priced A1080 compared to the others is the A1080 is using SABRE Premier DAC ES9007S chips for its conversion, whereas the other all use Burr-Brown 384 kHz / 32-bit DAC chips.

(side note, funny story but Burr Brown is known to be better imo, BUT only in the ones I've blind tested before, sure a low end Burr Brown will be worse than a high end better designed Sabre.) But I wanted to bring that up.

Other than that - I notice the A1080 has a touch more wattage, which is good. But not much more than the A880 or TSR7850.

So other than that, here is where I need help as I am not familiar with the brand enough to know, but what else are the differences between these models and what makes the higher price worth it ?

I don't want to miss out on something I'd like but not know now - At same time, I don't wanna spend more money for nothing I'll use.

If the Sabre chip outperforms the Burr Brown by that much, that alone would be enough for me to get the 1080 whether or not it has features I wouldn't use. As sound quality is vastly more important to me.

Also, small question - How does the A1080 for instance compare to a similar priced Arcam ? I know Arcam can get ridiculous expensive for their best models, but curious if their similar priced ones are better just cause of the company alone ? (UK built, etc..) So say something like the Arcam AVR390 vs Yamaha A1080
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Hey mustangtexas, thanks for joining in.



Ok, I guess its for sure looking like Yamaha then. lol wow. Ok.. (side note, yes you are totally right, them DSP programs are the exact thing I don't need and never use. Or anything like that).



So if the votes stay Yamaha, now its onto the question of which one ? And why ?



Upon my research, I found the CX models are just out of my budget for this set up.



But the:



RX-A1080

RX-A880

TSR-7850

RX-A780

and

RX-V685



are all within my budget. And they are the 7.1 models I am interested in.



The main different I can find with the higher priced A1080 compared to the others is the A1080 is using SABRE Premier DAC ES9007S chips for its conversion, whereas the other all use Burr-Brown 384 kHz / 32-bit DAC chips.



(side note, funny story but Burr Brown is known to be better imo, BUT only in the ones I've blind tested before, sure a low end Burr Brown will be worse than a high end better designed Sabre.) But I wanted to bring that up.



Other than that - I notice the A1080 has a touch more wattage, which is good. But not much more than the A880 or TSR7850.



So other than that, here is where I need help as I am not familiar with the brand enough to know, but what else are the differences between these models and what makes the higher price worth it ?



I don't want to miss out on something I'd like but not know now - At same time, I don't wanna spend more money for nothing I'll use.



If the Sabre chip outperforms the Burr Brown by that much, that alone would be enough for me to get the 1080 whether or not it has features I wouldn't use. As sound quality is vastly more important to me.



Also, small question - How does the A1080 for instance compare to a similar priced Arcam ? I know Arcam can get ridiculous expensive for their best models, but curious if their similar priced ones are better just cause of the company alone ? (UK built, etc..) So say something like the Arcam AVR390 vs Yamaha A1080
Well the Axx80 from Yamaha is the aventage series. That is their premier line, the V series is their entry level. If you're not looking for processing the dacs won't really matter. Pure direct switches off all the electronics and straight switches off most processing. If say drive to a store with a few media files /disks and hear it yourself. At times different ears perceive sounds and effects differently.
Like I said even I have the 3070, which is a 2018 model. So while I can eyeball what and how 3080 will sound, I won't be certain till I actually hear it.

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post #12 of 38 Old 05-26-2020, 11:11 PM
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post #13 of 38 Old 05-27-2020, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Well the Axx80 from Yamaha is the aventage series. That is their premier line, the V series is their entry level. If you're not looking for processing the dacs won't really matter. Pure direct switches off all the electronics and straight switches off most processing. If say drive to a store with a few media files /disks and hear it yourself. At times different ears perceive sounds and effects differently.
Like I said even I have the 3070, which is a 2018 model. So while I can eyeball what and how 3080 will sound, I won't be certain till I actually hear it.
Yea definitely got the idea of their "line-up". But my question is, besides DAC's, what's the real difference between say the A880 vs the A1080, or even the TSR7850 vs the A1080 ? As far as circuitry, path, components used, etc..

But yes you are right. Hearing them side by side with some familiar content is the absolute only way of knowing. The issue with that is, no stores in my area are open, and I aint playing the waiting game with my pansy nanny California/Bay Area government.

I'm about to make a decision on what we decide here and order it online asap.

About the DAC's, I of course will use them, as I need to go out my sound card either HDMI or good ol' Optical to get my 7.1, after the receiver, then its all analog wires, etc..

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post #14 of 38 Old 05-27-2020, 01:10 PM
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Amazing, but from the research and now here, we got Yamaha with 2 votes... everything else with none.

Anyone else got some recommendations ? Like I said, I know I'm not in the super bad ass boutiquey level budget for this (as I need to draw the line on a gaming system, lol) BUT I was hoping there was something out there that left the features out to just concentrate on simple good level components and deliver that to me at my price points. I other words, I'll trade features for slightly more boutiquey components/build level.

One thing a lot of people like about yamaha is they also make real instruments and high end ones at that. Their pianos are amazing. Hopefully the instrument folks and electronic audio folks at Yamaha work together.


Having said that, I was choosing between the Denon X3500H and the Yamaha TSR-7850 (A780 clone). The denon DAC actually does measure really well when you keep the output voltage below 1.2V if I remember right. The higher end x4500h+ models (and maybe the X3600H) have an even better DAC implementation. The yamaha DACs have been surprisingly "OK" and not as good as the newer/better Denon models listed previously.



I chose the X3500H mainly for XT32, SUBEQ and full set of pre-amp outputs (not that I will ever use them) but I'm not thrilled with the sound right now. My 13 year old Sony AVR sounded much better with my towers. I will also say my brother has the yamaha V683 and I do like it. The Yamahas actually do a higher sampling rate than audyssey when it comes to room correction. There is no perfect AVR or amp for that matter right now. Even if you spend $2k+ they all have shortcomings. It really comes down to hearing something and figuring out if you like the sound.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelxD View Post
Hi, I was curious about current 2020 recommendations on a good receiver for anywhere between $800-$1,500.

Mainly this will be for competitive gaming. So concerns of input lag is important. I will not pass video through it for this reason, but rather have the audio hit it separately somehow either out the computer directly via Optical... or via HDMI pass through from the monitor ? IDK ?

Looking for 7.1. Need no more than that.

The secondary importance would be for movies (blu-ray or whatever comes out next). Third importance would be music.

I’m a brand dude, and like quality and reliability with reputable company. Been out the game now for 15 years , so need some advice as to where it’s at now. What’s the best in that price range ? Also would like somewhat future proof.

Thanks in advance
If you only want 7.1 then the Denon x3500 or Yamaha TSR-7850 or A780 should suffice. Even though no longer on the Costco website the TSR-7850 is still in stock in warehouse stores. The last Costco I visited had 8 of them on the floor and its under $500. Both models have eARC so you can game with the console connected directly to the TV and still get hi res audio.
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post #16 of 38 Old 05-27-2020, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
One thing a lot of people like about yamaha is they also make real instruments and high end ones at that. Their pianos are amazing. Hopefully the instrument folks and electronic audio folks at Yamaha work together.


Having said that, I was choosing between the Denon X3500H and the Yamaha TSR-7850 (A780 clone). The denon DAC actually does measure really well when you keep the output voltage below 1.2V if I remember right. The higher end x4500h+ models (and maybe the X3600H) have an even better DAC implementation. The yamaha DACs have been surprisingly "OK" and not as good as the newer/better Denon models listed previously.



I chose the X3500H mainly for XT32, SUBEQ and full set of pre-amp outputs (not that I will ever use them) but I'm not thrilled with the sound right now. My 13 year old Sony AVR sounded much better with my towers. I will also say my brother has the yamaha V683 and I do like it. The Yamahas actually do a higher sampling rate than audyssey when it comes to room correction. There is no perfect AVR or amp for that matter right now. Even if you spend $2k+ they all have shortcomings. It really comes down to hearing something and figuring out if you like the sound.
Hey badtlc.
I was meaning to ask, but kinda slipped my mind, what SW is that in your DP?
Back on the topic
The older AVRs probably had the similar total watts in amplification and coz of lesser channel could produce a higher WPC and thus your 4 ohm (I'm guessing) speakers could draw more juice. Now from 5/7 channels the amplification it's gone to 9/11. That's a minimum 60% increase in channels with the internal amps not really keeping up. Once the amp channels started increasing, these guys also got smart about rating AVRs. Also coz of the cost factor, now a pre-pro and amps are costing a lot less than before (adjusted for inflation) and probably similar to what a 5.1 AVR was costing a decade back.
As far as your comparison of the denon and yamaha. Again could be a personal thing. Maybe your expectations were higher from your product and his were extremely low. One can't judge the receiver /speakers till you actually hear them. One man's trash could be another man's candy.

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Hey badtlc.
I was meaning to ask, but kinda slipped my mind, what SW is that in your DP?

If you are talking about my avatar it is a PSA V1812.
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What sound formats do you need supported? And what speakers are you planning to drive with the setup?


Have you considered a pre/pro focused on audio quality, with a separate 7 channel amp?


From one musician to another, after I went separates, I was amazed at the difference in audio quality.

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One thing a lot of people like about yamaha is they also make real instruments and high end ones at that. Their pianos are amazing. Hopefully the instrument folks and electronic audio folks at Yamaha work together.
Yes definitely hope so too ! haha. The best thing musically they ever have done is their Digital Piano's and the Motif Keyboard.

Their Digital Pianos are known to be the best. Their real pianos are surprisingly decent. And the Motif was super popular. And great sounding. Lots of billboard hit songs done entirely on that thing. But tbh, the rest of their instruments are cheesy at best in the real world.

To me, they are a motorcycle company. Nothing they do will top that rep for me.
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There is no perfect AVR or amp for that matter right now. Even if you spend $2k+ they all have shortcomings. It really comes down to hearing something and figuring out if you like the sound.
Thats the solid truth brother. No holy grail. Thats how it is with everything.

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If you only want 7.1 then the Denon x3500 or Yamaha TSR-7850 or A780 should suffice. Even though no longer on the Costco website the TSR-7850 is still in stock in warehouse stores. The last Costco I visited had 8 of them on the floor and its under $500.
I agree and am leaning towards their lower end models like that. TBH, I will be getting by with 5.1 at first, cause thats really all my gaming needs require, anything more is redundant overkill IMO. But the main reason (cause I'd do it otherwise) is, in this gaming room, I simply don't have room for any more speakers. The entire space I have to work with is 80" x 70".

The reason why I want a 7.1 is because LATER I will use it in my bedroom and want 7.1 surround then. But again, will barely have room for them 8 speakers then too. lol

(I live in San Francisco, $2mil homes are the size of match boxes. So I aint poor, but space here is just extremely uncommon. Extremely expensive.)

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Both models have eARC so you can game with the console connected directly to the TV and still get hi res audio.
Yes but remember I will not be using eARC because I am on a PC eSports level gaming system, not a console. To supply the fps/refresh rates I'm doing I must use DisplayPort to the monitor (MSI Optix MAG251RX). So the audio has to come out my PC sound card directly to the receiver. (in this set up), in which that is Optical or HDMI.

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Originally Posted by Stoopalini View Post
What sound formats do you need supported? And what speakers are you planning to drive with the setup?


Have you considered a pre/pro focused on audio quality, with a separate 7 channel amp?
From one musician to another, after I went separates, I was amazed at the difference in audio quality.
Mainly for PC eSports competitive gaming (literally legal organized cash game competitions). So Optical or HDMI Out of my PC sound/graphics card to the receiver, then to wires, then to speakers.

If you meant format by music I want to play on it - then really thats not what this is for. But if I ever did, maybe my 24b/96k .wav files and mp3's off of USB thumb drives. But again, I don't really need that. I'm not interested in listening to music on this thing. TBH this set up is my BREAK from music ! lol I deal with music all day. Need to escape from it sometimes you know.

Of course if I wanted a real system I definitely know separate channel amps is best way to go. But this set up here simply doesn't have the room for all the gear. Its going to be hard enough to fit a receiver in here, and the speakers. Anymore gear is not going to work. Also, its going just a bit too far for what this set up is really for.

I do like quality, and in other set ups I go all out, sometimes medium out, etc.. This one, I have to respect the space and the purpose. So I want the best quality (which is why I came here to ask) in a simple 1 receiver plug and play system if you know what I mean.
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post #20 of 38 Old 05-28-2020, 04:43 PM
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(I live in San Francisco, $2mil homes are the size of match boxes. So I aint poor, but space here is just extremely uncommon. Extremely expensive.)
yeah, I was shocked what my friend who lived in SF sold his home for last year. I have other friends in the East Bay and you get large homes with big yards for that price in contrast to SF. Still not great compared to other parts of the country where $2M buys you acres of land and a mansion.

It sounds like a simple 7.1 will be more than enough for your needs. 80" x 70" is small so I understand why 5.1 is currently more than enough.

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post #21 of 38 Old 05-28-2020, 04:52 PM
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Mainly for PC eSports competitive gaming (literally legal organized cash game competitions). So Optical or HDMI Out of my PC sound/graphics card to the receiver, then to wires, then to speakers.

If you meant format by music I want to play on it - then really thats not what this is for. But if I ever did, maybe my 24b/96k .wav files and mp3's off of USB thumb drives. But again, I don't really need that. I'm not interested in listening to music on this thing. TBH this set up is my BREAK from music ! lol I deal with music all day. Need to escape from it sometimes you know.

Of course if I wanted a real system I definitely know separate channel amps is best way to go. But this set up here simply doesn't have the room for all the gear. Its going to be hard enough to fit a receiver in here, and the speakers. Anymore gear is not going to work. Also, its going just a bit too far for what this set up is really for.

I do like quality, and in other set ups I go all out, sometimes medium out, etc.. This one, I have to respect the space and the purpose. So I want the best quality (which is why I came here to ask) in a simple 1 receiver plug and play system if you know what I mean.

I meant audio formats from the PC. What surround formats does the receiver need to decode?


I was going to say the UMC-200 I have is really nice for quality playback, but it's not modern by any means. It just has a very clear preamp with great PEQ capabilities. But if you want one small package for everything, have you considered a smaller slim AVR? Something like the Marantz NR-1710? It's only 50 wpc, but the specs look nice for your purpose ... and it's small.



https://www.us.marantz.com/en-US/sho...ceivers/nr1710

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@bootz , Thank you for your explanation and reference. My Denon 2015 model bought in 2016, runs cool, with Cbl box on top for long periods.
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This post is more for fun. You spelt my name wrong
lol.......I might be replacing my Denon 2015 model year, bought in 2016, with another Denon, later this year.

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The 13 channel?
If you want a bit more plan on separates.

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post #25 of 38 Old 05-29-2020, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
If you only want 7.1 then the Denon x3500 or Yamaha TSR-7850 or A780 should suffice. Even though no longer on the Costco website the TSR-7850 is still in stock in warehouse stores. The last Costco I visited had 8 of them on the floor and its under $500.
I agree - but I also forgot to answer this part of this post - THANKS for letting me know this, checking into it now. What is he difference btw between the 7850 and the 780 its cloning ?

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yeah, I was shocked what my friend who lived in SF sold his home for last year. I have other friends in the East Bay and you get large homes with big yards for that price in contrast to SF. Still not great compared to other parts of the country where $2M buys you acres of land and a mansion.

It sounds like a simple 7.1 will be more than enough for your needs. 80" x 70" is small so I understand why 5.1 is currently more than enough.
And you'd be even more shocked if you seen its size ! haha, especially the size of the bathrooms here. (unless your house has been recently remodeled.) - My house is from 1911. Keep in mind I use most of it for the main Recording studio I have, and that takes priority and nothing can interfere with that. Meanwhile I am remodeling portions of the house now so things will change over time. This is why I need to find something that will suffice 2 purposes over time.

Also keep in mind, the entire room is not 80"x70", that's just the portion of the room this all needs to fit in. The entire room is 12f x 13f and such a weird stupid layout that doors and bathroom, other stuff just totally in the way to accomplish anything right.

But this IS temporary.

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I meant audio formats from the PC. What surround formats does the receiver need to decode?
Ahhh, lol, my bad, and of course the thing I didn't answer (along with the speakers question).

Ok so for me Dolby 5.1/7.1 and DTS has always sounded best. I am trying to understand Dolby Atmos but don't see what it is actually changing to the good ol normal format.. If its just simply the new Dolby, then yea add Dolby Atmos. In my previous set up, DTS sounded best and was used the most.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoopalini View Post
I was going to say the UMC-200 I have is really nice for quality playback, but it's not modern by any means. It just has a very clear preamp with great PEQ capabilities. But if you want one small package for everything, have you considered a smaller slim AVR? Something like the Marantz NR-1710? It's only 50 wpc, but the specs look nice for your purpose ... and it's small.https://www.us.marantz.com/en-US/sho...ceivers/nr1710
Dude thanks for the link and recommendation ! Wow I would love a smaller thinner design in a "all in one" ! That looks DOPE !

Only issue I see is, (and understandably so being so small) that would be fine for my gaming at 50w per channel, but when I move this set up onto my bedroom for true good movie sound at 7.1, and I like rip roaring volumes, lol I think it won't be enough power.

Looking for the 100w range stuff. Which honestly this brings me to a entirely different question.

Looking at the specs on all these amps, when they mention wattage, is that for each channel, INCLUDING the surrounds ? Those in my older set up were always so quiet.

Also, what I liked about my old set outdated setup was I had individual volume control for EACH set (Fronts, Center, Surrounds and Satellites) Do these newer models have that control too ? I'd be looking for that for sure, as its a good feature to control any varying distance setups between consumers..

Final new question. My old setup also had what's called "satellites" as a set of speakers. I always figured they were the last 2 in a 7.1 setup. And I like these. They would go high in the front L/R corners up by the ceiling to widen up the fronts. So you have 2 "Fronts", 1 "Center", 2 "Surrounds", 2 "Satellites" and the .1 is the "Sub".

Issue is, on these newer receivers, the 7.1's never have a "satellite" speaker connection in the back. just 2 sets of "surrounds". So can someone please clarify what position each section is suppose to go in the room.

Cause FYI, I will never have surrounds BEHIND me. My surrounds (which I only need 1 set of) can at most get right to my rear sides (equal to my ears position). As every room I will ever be able to have is not big enough to sit away from the rear wall.

I thought my older way with "satellites" was 7.1. But maybe that is considered 5.1 with satellites ? lol IDK ? But I know I liked the sound and it was more than suffice for ALL my possible future setups. So what is the system in which I described here ?:

2 "Fronts" (placed on each side of TV usually tall so sit on floor and go almost as high as TV sits), 1 "Center" (obvious position), 2 "Surrounds" (placed to each L/R side equal to my ear/head position), 2 "Satellites" (up high to the ceiling [8ft] and much wider apart than the 2 front speakers) and the .1 is the "Sub" (placed in the varying correct place for room)

Thats the speaker set up I will use at the biggest venture of this receivers life. lol. So what is that and how do I get that control ? (separate volume control too).

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Originally Posted by Stoopalini View Post
what speakers are you planning to drive with the setup?
IDK tbh, But they will be as I described above, the center speaker always looks like centers to (skinny and long) the fronts are the tower types, sit on the floor, etc.. the satellites and surrounds are small like little rectangle cubes sitting upright approx 10"x8" or so. Sub, well you know those. Good 12" sub should suffice.

Brand will be good quality equal to or better than the receiver (in case I want to upgrade my receiver down the road), as I know you are only as good as your weakest link. And after a receiver upgrade I would not want my speakers to be the weakest link.

That said, no brands decided on yet.

Last edited by JoelxD; 05-29-2020 at 12:09 PM.
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post #26 of 38 Old 05-30-2020, 06:59 AM
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Dude thanks for the link and recommendation ! Wow I would love a smaller thinner design in a "all in one" ! That looks DOPE !

Only issue I see is, (and understandably so being so small) that would be fine for my gaming at 50w per channel, but when I move this set up onto my bedroom for true good movie sound at 7.1, and I like rip roaring volumes, lol I think it won't be enough power.

Looking for the 100w range stuff. Which honestly this brings me to a entirely different question.
Sure thing man, glad to help. But the whole 50w vs. 100w thing is why I asked what speakers you plan to use. The speakers will have a big impact on how loud the setup will play. A single 97dB sensitivity speaker will hit 104dB SPL sitting 10ft away at 50 watts. That's plenty loud for music listening and movie watching in a small bedroom.

But .. if you go for low sensitivity speakers (like my NHTs) it's different. a single 86dB sensitivity speaker will hit 93dB SPL sitting 10ft away at 50 watts.

As a comparison, doubling the amplifier output to 100 watts will only increase the loudness by 3dB. So at 93dB, an extra 3dB could matter to you, bumping it up to 96dB. But at 104dB, an extra 3 won't mean much for a bedroom setup.

So 50watts should be plenty for what you are going for, assuming you have speakers with a mid-to-high sensitivity rating.

Check out the SPL calculator located here: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html. You can play with wattage, speaker sensitivity, distance, placement, etc ... to see how loud a particular setup will be. I think you'll find the difference between 50 and 100 watts won't mean as much as you think it will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelxD View Post
Looking at the specs on all these amps, when they mention wattage, is that for each channel, INCLUDING the surrounds ? Those in my older set up were always so quiet.

Also, what I liked about my old set outdated setup was I had individual volume control for EACH set (Fronts, Center, Surrounds and Satellites) Do these newer models have that control too ? I'd be looking for that for sure, as its a good feature to control any varying distance setups between consumers..
The 50 watt rating is for each channel, including the surrounds, but receivers are typically rated with 2 channels playing to account for total harmonic distortion (THD). You need to check out the fine print to be sure though. Very few amp/receiver manufacture's rate their equipment will all channels playing, at a reasonable THD level. It's typically something like 100 watts per channel, with 2 channels driver, with a 1kHz tone, for 0.5% total harmonic distortion ... or similar to this.



But ... when watching movies, all 7 speakers are never really playing max capacity all at the same time anyway. So unless you're talking about a really large theater setup, it's usually fine to spec out the amp and speakers with just two channels playing.


But ya, all modern receivers will have the capability to control the levels of each individual speaker.

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Originally Posted by JoelxD View Post
Final new question. My old setup also had what's called "satellites" as a set of speakers. I always figured they were the last 2 in a 7.1 setup. And I like these. They would go high in the front L/R corners up by the ceiling to widen up the fronts. So you have 2 "Fronts", 1 "Center", 2 "Surrounds", 2 "Satellites" and the .1 is the "Sub".

Issue is, on these newer receivers, the 7.1's never have a "satellite" speaker connection in the back. just 2 sets of "surrounds". So can someone please clarify what position each section is suppose to go in the room.

Cause FYI, I will never have surrounds BEHIND me. My surrounds (which I only need 1 set of) can at most get right to my rear sides (equal to my ears position). As every room I will ever be able to have is not big enough to sit away from the rear wall.

I thought my older way with "satellites" was 7.1. But maybe that is considered 5.1 with satellites ? lol IDK ? But I know I liked the sound and it was more than suffice for ALL my possible future setups. So what is the system in which I described here ?:
What you are describing are called front height speakers. I actually have front heights in my setup, instead of rear surrounds. For the same reason you mention, in that my room isn't suited for rear surrounds. But there are a LOT of ways to setup a multichannel theater setup. Check out this link for the Dolby recommended setups: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/speaker-...des/index.html

Apple TV 4K / TiVo Roamio OTA / Xbox One S / PS3
Emotiva UMC-200
JBL Performance AVA7 / Mitsubishi DA-A10 / Carver a-400x / Adcom GFA-545
NHT VT-1.2a / NHT VS-1.2a / NHT Superones / Sonotube Sub
LG OLED65CXUAP / Vizio M602i-B3 / Dell 5100MP

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post #27 of 38 Old 05-30-2020, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, ok thanks again so much, as I just learned a lot right now from you and then also the links - which leads to this:

First off, embarrassingly enough, learning from that link about what every speaker set is in a system is, I realized I will never use above a 5.1 format. What I was inadvertently planning on was now I know a 5.1 system with "Front Heights". But after reading your links, what I could do is a 5.1.2 Dolby Atmos with 2 ceiling speakers but I will just hang them in the most front'est recommended positions.

(or just simply stick to 5.1 with front heights - leading to these questions, and answers.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoopalini View Post
But the whole 50w vs. 100w thing is why I asked what speakers you plan to use. The speakers will have a big impact on how loud the setup will play. A single 97dB sensitivity speaker will hit 104dB SPL sitting 10ft away at 50 watts. That's plenty loud for music listening and movie watching in a small bedroom.

But .. if you go for low sensitivity speakers (like my NHTs) it's different. a single 86dB sensitivity speaker will hit 93dB SPL sitting 10ft away at 50 watts.

As a comparison, doubling the amplifier output to 100 watts will only increase the loudness by 3dB. So at 93dB, an extra 3dB could matter to you, bumping it up to 96dB. But at 104dB, an extra 3 won't mean much for a bedroom setup.

So 50watts should be plenty for what you are going for, assuming you have speakers with a mid-to-high sensitivity rating.

Check out the SPL calculator located here: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html. You can play with wattage, speaker sensitivity, distance, placement, etc ... to see how loud a particular setup will be. I think you'll find the difference between 50 and 100 watts won't mean as much as you think it will.
So its hard to use the calculator now, not knowing what speakers I get.. But I did play with it using made up situations and their recommended middle ground of a 90db sensitivity speakers. I see your point.

I guess I need to start a new thread too about speakers. As that's the next/now decision as well which may help this.

Here are some things to help recommending me the correct thing - The final destination this receiver will go is in a room that is 12f x 13ft dedicated solely for this. (and sleeping). Listening positions will be 9ft from fronts/center, 12ft from "front heights" (or 10ft from the .2 Atmos's) and 5.5ft from surrounds. All speakers would be up against a wall or ceiling/corner. I like scary loud booming action, rumbling thunder levels. I also learned from my recording engineering that having a amp wattage overpowered and always using it at 50%-75% max power creates much better quality than using a lower properly fit "good enough" wattage amp at 80%+ to max power all the time.

Keeping that in mind, what would be the recommendation ? 50watt to power a 12" sub seems... ehhh. IDK ?

Also the thing you speak of here as far as speaker "sensitivity", I never heard that before. Is it the Ohms resistance ? As that I am familiar with with guitar amps to cabinets, bass amps to cabinets, etc.. and stuff in the pro audio world. And that's a can of worms cause different resistance gives you different tones. So one is not always better than the other. The average Joe would say, why not get the cabinet that gives me the loudest sound from that amp ? But the reason is, because the tone might suck compared to a different resistance that equals lower volumes, so then get a more powerful amp.

Etc... its a can of worms - is that what this is here ? Or is this something different than Ohms ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoopalini View Post
The 50 watt rating is for each channel, including the surrounds, but receivers are typically rated with 2 channels playing to account for total harmonic distortion (THD). You need to check out the fine print to be sure though. Very few amp/receiver manufacture's rate their equipment will all channels playing, at a reasonable THD level. It's typically something like 100 watts per channel, with 2 channels driver, with a 1kHz tone, for 0.5% total harmonic distortion ... or similar to this.
Ok, thanks, good to know. Yea I seen them specs listed , and that's what got me nervous. It seemed this rating was only for 2 channels at a time.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoopalini View Post
What you are describing are called front height speakers. I actually have front heights in my setup, instead of rear surrounds. For the same reason you mention, in that my room isn't suited for rear surrounds. But there are a LOT of ways to setup a multichannel theater setup. Check out this link for the Dolby recommended setups: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/speaker-...des/index.html
Ok, and here goes the 2nd can of worms !! lol Ok - As said earlier, I was accidentally referring to "Front Heights".

Question - Where is the dedicated channel for Front Heights on amps in a real set up ? Or are they always just a split off from the Fronts ? Is there a "Format" that supports front heights as a dedicated channel ? Do you use 7.1 and swap the rear channels for front heights and somehow the format changes it properly ?

In a receiver that supports Dolby Atmos, I do not see the "Atmos" speaker channel connections on the back of the receiver. So if I did go Dolby Atmos and skip the Front Heights idea, how do I exactly do that ?

Also, in general, do you guys like Dolby Atmos ? Is it worth it ? If its not a dedicated channel, then what's really the difference between a .2 Atmos and some Front Heights ? Hearing my entire story and size and goals and likes - What do you guys recommend ? 5.1 + Front Heights (or whatever that would be called ? 7.1 swapping the rear channels for front heights if possible ?) vs 5.1.2 Dolby Atmos

Last edited by JoelxD; 05-30-2020 at 12:21 PM.
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post #28 of 38 Old 05-30-2020, 12:43 PM
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I thought I would chime in, I know you have a budget, but if you considered upping it, Anthem makes very good receivers in their MRX line, not a lot off bells and whistles, just very good sound.
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post #29 of 38 Old 05-30-2020, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelxD View Post
Wow, ok thanks again so much, as I just learned a lot right now from you and then also the links - which leads to this:

First off, embarrassingly enough, learning from that link about what every speaker set is in a system is, I realized I will never use above a 5.1 format. What I was inadvertently planning on was now I know a 5.1 system with "Front Heights". But after reading your links, what I could do is a 5.1.2 Dolby Atmos with 2 ceiling speakers but I will just hang them in the most front'est recommended positions.

(or just simply stick to 5.1 with front heights - leading to these questions, and answers.)

So its hard to use the calculator now, not knowing what speakers I get.. But I did play with it using made up situations and their recommended middle ground of a 90db sensitivity speakers. I see your point.

I guess I need to start a new thread too about speakers. As that's the next/now decision as well which may help this.

Here are some things to help recommending me the correct thing - The final destination this receiver will go is in a room that is 12f x 13ft dedicated solely for this. (and sleeping). Listening positions will be 9ft from fronts/center, 12ft from "front heights" (or 10ft from the .2 Atmos's) and 5.5ft from surrounds. All speakers would be up against a wall or ceiling/corner. I like scary loud booming action, rumbling thunder levels. I also learned from my recording engineering that having a amp wattage overpowered and always using it at 50%-75% max power creates much better quality than using a lower properly fit "good enough" wattage amp at 80%+ to max power all the time.

Keeping that in mind, what would be the recommendation ? 50watt to power a 12" sub seems... ehhh. IDK ?

For the subwoofer, you don't use the amps inside the receiver. You either use a powered sub, or a passive sub with a separate amplifier. So the 50 watts in the receiver won't need to produce those low frequencies, or drive a large subwoofer driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelxD View Post
Also the thing you speak of here as far as speaker "sensitivity", I never heard that before. Is it the Ohms resistance ? As that I am familiar with with guitar amps to cabinets, bass amps to cabinets, etc.. and stuff in the pro audio world. And that's a can of worms cause different resistance gives you different tones. So one is not always better than the other. The average Joe would say, why not get the cabinet that gives me the loudest sound from that amp ? But the reason is, because the tone might suck compared to a different resistance that equals lower volumes, so then get a more powerful amp.

Etc... its a can of worms - is that what this is here ? Or is this something different than Ohms ?
It's different than impedance/resistence, or Ohms. The Ohm rating of the speaker is related to how much power it will demand from the amplifier. Sensitivity is more like an efficiency rating, and tells you how efficiently the speaker can turn that power into sound. All speakers have a sensitivity rating within their specs, just as they have an impedance (or Ohms) rating. Just go to any speaker manufacturer page, and look at the specs to find it. It's a measurement of how loud the speaker will play when standing 1 meter away and 1 watt of power is delivered to it.

So a 97dB sensitivity rated speaker will produce 97dB of sound pressure when measured from a 1 meter distance. A speaker with sensitivity rating of 86dB, will produce 86dB of SPL when measured at 1 meter. Doubling the power will increase the level by 3dB. So, a 90dB sensitivity speaker will produce 90dB with 1watt of power, 93dB with 2 watts, 96dB with 4 watts, 99dB with 8, 102dB with 16, 105 with 32, and 108 with 64.

This is why comparing a 50 watt amp with a 100 watt amp always results in a SPL increase of 3dB. But the sensitivity rating of the speaker determines how loud it's playing to start with. The Ohm rating will determine how much power it's going to get from the amp.

As an example, the Marantz NR1710 I linked to below, delivers 50 watts to an 8 Ohm speaker. But delivers 70 Watts to a 6 Ohm speaker. So a 6 Ohm speaker will play louder than an 8 Ohm speaker will (assuming they both have the same sensitivity), but the 6 Ohm speaker will place a higher load on the amp; which is why Marantz rates the 6 Ohm speakers at 0.7% THD vs the 0.08% THD they state when using 8 Ohm speakers. It's this total harmonic distortion phenomenon you're touching on when you talk about sound quality of stage gear when using different impedance cabinets or speakers. I'm a guitarist myself, and have played around a lot with this concept as well

Here is a decent article on speaker sensitivity: https://www.lifewire.com/speaker-sensitivity-3134850

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelxD View Post
Ok, thanks, good to know. Yea I seen them specs listed , and that's what got me nervous. It seemed this rating was only for 2 channels at a time.
Ya, that's typical. They rate the amp with two channels driven, as you rarely have all channels driven near max levels at any given time, just due to the nature of how multichannel movie sound tracks are made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelxD View Post
Ok, and here goes the 2nd can of worms !! lol Ok - As said earlier, I was accidentally referring to "Front Heights".

Question - Where is the dedicated channel for Front Heights on amps in a real set up ? Or are they always just a split off from the Fronts ? Is there a "Format" that supports front heights as a dedicated channel ? Do you use 7.1 and swap the rear channels for front heights and somehow the format changes it properly ?

In a receiver that supports Dolby Atmos, I do not see the "Atmos" speaker channel connections on the back of the receiver. So if I did go Dolby Atmos and skip the Front Heights idea, how do I exactly do that ?

Also, in general, do you guys like Dolby Atmos ? Is it worth it ? If its not a dedicated channel, then what's really the difference between a .2 Atmos and some Front Heights ? Hearing my entire story and size and goals and likes - What do you guys recommend ? 5.1 + Front Heights (or whatever that would be called ? 7.1 swapping the rear channels for front heights if possible ?) vs 5.1.2 Dolby Atmos
It just depends on the receiver. My Emotiva UMC-200 is not Atmos enabled, but does allow for front heights. This is not a signal which is taken from the fronts, but is a unique signal created for the height speakers. In an Atmos setup, it's still not just the front signal also being directed to the heights or ceiling speakers. But is uniquely encoded signal especially for the Atmos height speakers. Some receivers will generate a signal for these speakers, even when no Atmos signal is encoded in the sound track as well. But it's still not just the front signals also going to the heights.

Atmos is definitely a very cool concept. The sound encoded in the movie isn't related t any particular speaker, but is a spacial position of the sound. So the receiver then plays that spacial sound back, and directs audio to whatever speakers are connected to best reproduce the spacial sound. Other formats encode sound per speaker, but Atmos encodes sound in a 3 dimensional space, and the receiver decodes this and then plays it back through whatever speakers will best reproduce it. If you have a 5.1.2, then it'll choose the best ones out of those. If you have an 11.2.4, then it'll choose the best out of all of those. Of course, the more speakers you have, the better the receiver can reproduce the spacial sound in your room.

Apple TV 4K / TiVo Roamio OTA / Xbox One S / PS3
Emotiva UMC-200
JBL Performance AVA7 / Mitsubishi DA-A10 / Carver a-400x / Adcom GFA-545
NHT VT-1.2a / NHT VS-1.2a / NHT Superones / Sonotube Sub
LG OLED65CXUAP / Vizio M602i-B3 / Dell 5100MP
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post #30 of 38 Old 05-31-2020, 10:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erick granato View Post
I thought I would chime in, I know you have a budget, but if you considered upping it, Anthem makes very good receivers in their MRX line, not a lot off bells and whistles, just very good sound.
Hi Erick, and thanks for chiming in and helping. For sure going to check out that brand. Thanks !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoopalini View Post
For the subwoofer, you don't use the amps inside the receiver. You either use a powered sub, or a passive sub with a separate amplifier. So the 50 watts in the receiver won't need to produce those low frequencies, or drive a large subwoofer driver.
Awesome to know. Thanks for clarifying that. I guess I always bought powered subs and never knew it ! lol And I will again for this set up, so that's that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoopalini View Post
It's different than impedance/resistence, or Ohms. The Ohm rating of the speaker is related to how much power it will demand from the amplifier. Sensitivity is more like an efficiency rating, and tells you how efficiently the speaker can turn that power into sound.
Got it. So I do and will need to consider all that when deciding here. Thanks for the clarification on this as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoopalini View Post
It just depends on the receiver. My Emotiva UMC-200 is not Atmos enabled, but does allow for front heights. This is not a signal which is taken from the fronts, but is a unique signal created for the height speakers. In an Atmos setup, it's still not just the front signal also being directed to the heights or ceiling speakers. But is uniquely encoded signal especially for the Atmos height speakers. Some receivers will generate a signal for these speakers, even when no Atmos signal is encoded in the sound track as well. But it's still not just the front signals also going to the heights.
Ok, and thanks the MOST for clarifying this. This is ground breaking for me. So this narrows down my search. I must have a receiver that has separate Front Height channels and/or Atmos. Preferably both, and almost mandatorily both. Cause I'd like to play with what I like better.

And last but not least question - When front heights are included in the channels of a receiver do they add to the number of the format name ? For instance 5.1 + Front Heights = 7.1 ? Or would the format still be considered 5.1 but just with added "front heights" ?

I am looking on all the receivers recommended and I do not see Front Heights jacks to plug into on any of them. So do I need to look for different ones ? Or am I missing something ? But I know they support Dolby Atmos, therefore would need to support the ceiling speakers and I do not see any Atmos ceiling speaker jack to plug into either. So what's going on here ? lol

And now with the new info - any different recommendations ?

(PS question) - Do they make what would be "rear heights" ? lol If so, I actually might be able to fit those in my set up So I'd want to add that possibility then. And if so, the previous questions applies - what's the format technically grow to, and where is the dedicated channels on the receiver ?

Last edited by JoelxD; 05-31-2020 at 10:18 PM.
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