Denon AVR-X4500H/3600H or Onkyo TX-RZ840 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 33 Old 05-29-2020, 03:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Denon AVR-X4500H/3600H or Onkyo TX-RZ840

Hello!

I am very new to the world of surround sound/home theater setups and have some questions. Please excuse me if some of these questions seem dumb.

I am planning on buying a new 5.1 speaker set that I will be using for movies/gaming and music. I am looking for good surround and stereo performance and I am not sure which AVR to pick.

I am currently looking at the Denon AVR-X4500H/3600H and Onkyo TX-RZ840. I am not sure if a smaller receiver is suitable for my needs. Does it make sense to wait for the new version of the Denon 4500 at this point?

I am also thinking of eventually upgrading the system to 5.1.2 or 5.1.4. I am unable to install speakers on the ceiling, so I would be getting the type that sits on your other speakers and reflects the sound from the ceiling. Are those reflecting speakers any good or should I stay away from Atmos if I cannot install speakers on the ceiling? My room is about 16' long and 14' wide, the ceiling is about 8' and I am sitting pretty much in the middle. Does a setup with 2 or 4 Atmos speakers make more sense for me?

Is any AVR also good at performing in stereo mode for music or should I be thinking of getting a separate stereo amp that will be connected to the pre-outs of the AVR for the front 2 speakers? I heard different opinions on this.

Thank you so much for your help!
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post #2 of 33 Old 05-29-2020, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
Hello!



I am very new to the world of surround sound/home theater setups and have some questions. Please excuse me if some of these questions seem dumb.



I am planning on buying a new 5.1 speaker set that I will be using for movies/gaming and music. I am looking for good surround and stereo performance and I am not sure which AVR to pick.



I am currently looking at the Denon AVR-X4500H/3600H and Onkyo TX-RZ840. I am not sure if a smaller receiver is suitable for my needs. Does it make sense to wait for the new version of the Denon 4500 at this point?



I am also thinking of eventually upgrading the system to 5.1.2 or 5.1.4. I am unable to install speakers on the ceiling, so I would be getting the type that sits on your other speakers and reflects the sound from the ceiling. Are those reflecting speakers any good or should I stay away from Atmos if I cannot install speakers on the ceiling? My room is about 16' long and 14' wide, the ceiling is about 8' and I am sitting pretty much in the middle. Does a setup with 2 or 4 Atmos speakers make more sense for me?



Is any AVR also good at performing in stereo mode for music or should I be thinking of getting a separate stereo amp that will be connected to the pre-outs of the AVR for the front 2 speakers? I heard different opinions on this.



Thank you so much for your help!
Hi there. The thought of getting a home theater is awesome. I've had the thought since I first heard an onkyo HTIB in 2007/2008. Nothing fancy. Just a 5.1 and the 'cd' quality was nothing great. We generally heard things in 5 channel stereo and I was impressed. Fast forward 2014 I built a dedicated media room with a 7.1 with onkyo 727 at the heart of it. In 2018 I built my latest theater, replacing most of my older equipment and introducing a theater. Even after building it, things have constantly changed, replacing older stuff or buying new things to get better sound/video. 90% of the people in the forum will agree, no one's got a perfect home theater. Even if they like it now, they'll replace it in the foreseeable future.

With that, I'll get to your problem at hand. I hope to cover as much as I can from personal experiences, experience of other friends and/or forum members.

Before we begin, I'd like to know the size of your room. The reason I ask, is so that the number of speakers can be decided easier with help of everyone. As far as atmos is concerned, I'd stay away from the reflection and jargon the marketing throws out there. That's not to say atmos isn't possible. You could mount regular speakers on the bracket if you can't cut a hole or look at angled speakers to be mounted at a height and project the sound at an angle towards the listeners. These are better than the reflection speakers but can't perform as well as in ceiling speakers. The dispersion of atmos is different from most speakers, since the atmos has a higher non angular bias dispersion. The bookshelves have a very low to negligible verticle dispersion compared to their lateral dispersion and monitors are very directional. Also in ceiling have concentric tweeter and bass driver which is a better blend of sound over low distance than different location of the drivers. Also since they are in ceiling, they don't suffer from the reflection from the wall they are placed against. The name of this phenomenon has slipped my mind.
While researching these, I'd also suggest researching a bit of Yamaha. Great receivers those.

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post #3 of 33 Old 05-29-2020, 05:12 AM
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The real question is: Where are you even able to find a Denon 3600/4500 or Onkyo 840? Coronavirus pandemic has wiped out the supply everywhere.
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post #4 of 33 Old 05-29-2020, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by spacecowboy View Post
The real question is: Where are you even able to find a Denon 3600/4500 or Onkyo 840? Coronavirus pandemic has wiped out the supply everywhere.
Amazon Germany still has plenty of X4500H Black & Silver units in stock. Silver is cheaper!!
New X3600H are all gone...
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post #5 of 33 Old 05-29-2020, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
Hello!



I am very new to the world of surround sound/home theater setups and have some questions. Please excuse me if some of these questions seem dumb.



I am planning on buying a new 5.1 speaker set that I will be using for movies/gaming and music. I am looking for good surround and stereo performance and I am not sure which AVR to pick.



I am currently looking at the Denon AVR-X4500H/3600H and Onkyo TX-RZ840. I am not sure if a smaller receiver is suitable for my needs. Does it make sense to wait for the new version of the Denon 4500 at this point?



I am also thinking of eventually upgrading the system to 5.1.2 or 5.1.4. I am unable to install speakers on the ceiling, so I would be getting the type that sits on your other speakers and reflects the sound from the ceiling. Are those reflecting speakers any good or should I stay away from Atmos if I cannot install speakers on the ceiling? My room is about 16' long and 14' wide, the ceiling is about 8' and I am sitting pretty much in the middle. Does a setup with 2 or 4 Atmos speakers make more sense for me?



Is any AVR also good at performing in stereo mode for music or should I be thinking of getting a separate stereo amp that will be connected to the pre-outs of the AVR for the front 2 speakers? I heard different opinions on this.



Thank you so much for your help!
I guess my following answer cover your questions. If not, feel free to reach me



Quote:
Originally Posted by asabrag View Post
Mmm...I dont think thats a good idea unless that the only thing available (once I bought an Onkyo HTS3505 HTIAB because there were no other options for me around.



Yes, you should go this way





The great thing about going separates, is you can start and keep upgrading.
Decide if you are going to go all the way to 7.2.4 (thats an 11 channel AVR required or what it will be cheaper a 9 channel amp with option to expand to 11 channels with external amp).



Yes, wires are still required, maybe you can go wireless with the sub, but it will always be better with cables.

Generalities:

- Unless you're Rockefeller, don't try to get all together, you'll end up with cheap components that will not satisfy you.

I've own Dolby Surrond 5.1 (VHS era) through DTS X since 30 years ago.

I've own the following AVRs:
-Technics SA GX650
-Sony STRDA985 (Dolby Digital+DTS through SPDIF)
-Onkyo HTS3505 (HDMI)
-Onkyo TX-NR646
-Yamaha 681
-Denon 4300H
-Onkyo TX-SR309 (now at my mum's)
-Pioneer 932

Current AVR:
-Onkyo RZ840 + -Onkyo 8250 + Nad C368

I've own the following Speakers:
-Technics SBLX90 + AFC32
-Technics ACS22 (today at parents house)
-Polk RTI-A5
-Polk CSI-A4
-Klipsch RP-140SA (atmos, garbage)
-Jamo 526 Fronts (today at parents house)
-Jamo C522 (today at parents house)


Current Speakers:
-Klipsch RP-280F
-Klipsch RP-250C
-Klipsch RP-260F
-Jamo S522
-Klipsch RP-250S
-Polk FXI-A4

Dont go with Atmos over Speakers, thats a gimmik.

Go with In Ceiling or In Wall (my current configuration).

Dont believe the "Atmos Speakers" stickers: I fall for the Klipsch RP140SA, garbage: replaced them with Surround ones (RP250S) even you'll read everywhere bipole/dipole are not recommended they are awesome as Atmos.

Dont believe everything you read, even from Dolby: they receive money from each Atmos sticker the speakers manufacturers put in a Speaker!

Dont let yourself guide you for what the masses think. I let myself convince Denon was better than Onkyo, I ended up with a Denon I couldnt sell for two years to get my hands again on an Onkyo!

Trust only you ears:

Auditions are good for a starting point, but the equipment wont sound the same at your home.

Final and most important recommendation: Buy from someone who has several brands to choose and great return policies, so you can try and exchange for other brand if you are not satisfied with the result you get at home.

So, my current equipment will be of course my recommendatios

Good Luck with your new hobby: It's a lifetime one
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post #6 of 33 Old 05-29-2020, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
I am currently looking at the Denon AVR-X4500H/3600H and Onkyo TX-RZ840. I am not sure if a smaller receiver is suitable for my needs.
If you stay within 5.1/5.1.2 you can get the X1600H or X2600H and upgrade later to an 9.2ch receiver for 5.2.4 setups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
Does it make sense to wait for the new version of the Denon 4500 at this point?
It depends on how soon are you going to go from 5.1 to 5.2.4 and how badly do you need [email protected] or 8K - for gaming, anyway, because 4K HFR or 8K video content is faraway...
The X4500H successor is the AVC-X4700H, it has only 1 8K input (in fact, all 2020 D+M units have only 1 8K input).
If you do not need 4K HFR or 8K you can use any 2018/2019 eARC receiver together with an 4K/8K eARC TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
I am also thinking of eventually upgrading the system to 5.1.2 or 5.1.4. I am unable to install speakers on the ceiling, so I would be getting the type that sits on your other speakers and reflects the sound from the ceiling. Are those reflecting speakers any good or should I stay away from Atmos if I cannot install speakers on the ceiling?
The Atmos experience that you get from Dolby Atmos Enabled Speakers (DAES) is a little different than when you have speakers on/in ceiling - and it depends on a lot of factors, the quality of the DAES masking of the drive, the distance from DAES to MLP, the height of the DAES versus your ear level height (DAES speakers MUST be well above ear level!!!), the ceiling type/angle/height. I have this kind of setup and the results are more diffuse and unprecise, but it works as a compromise solution if you can't install in/on ceiling speakers. A setup with DAES can be tricky and it may work in your case or not. Too many variables to tell.

A in/on ceiling Atmos setup is more forgiving and direct - it is hard to NOT get Atmos right with a standard in/on ceiling setup, you must screw things up big time to compromise the experience, so if you follow the usual Atmos setup diagrams you will be fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
My room is about 16' long and 14' wide, the ceiling is about 8' and I am sitting pretty much in the middle. Does a setup with 2 or 4 Atmos speakers make more sense for me?
Yes, absolutely go for 4 Atmos speakers. 2 are good, but you get better imaging and precision with 4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
Is any AVR also good at performing in stereo mode for music or should I be thinking of getting a separate stereo amp that will be connected to the pre-outs of the AVR for the front 2 speakers? I heard different opinions on this.
Purists/audiophiles will tell you a bunch of nonsense, you do what you please with your money but I am very pleased with the Stereo sound I get from my AVRs - the Stereo experience depends mainly to the quality of your main L+R speakers and the subwoofer (if used for music), so do not invest in cheap main speakers, go for the quality.
The surround speakers can be cheaper if you want.
Also, pay attention to the Center speaker - go for quality, not price.
There is no need to match all the speakers (same brand/same line) if you compromise on the quality. You can pick the best that fits your budget for the L+C+R+subwoofer.
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post #7 of 33 Old 05-29-2020, 09:31 AM
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In fact if I may change my opinion, I'll suggest for a HTIB to begin with. The speakers/avr will be perfectly matched along with the provided subwoofer. It's like the tricycle of home theaters. Once you realize you can peddle then look for balance and go for a big Boys cycle. Just another opinion. The first time around you'll make mistakes and not understand a lot of things. It's only later you realize why you're spending extra and what is the improvement. In my 12x14 room a kef t2 woofer (250w) looked solid. Now when I shifted to 23x13 room, I needed to buy new subs and now I know the difference. You may overkill with your first purchase taking suggestions. Also for pro equipment you do need pro side equipments. A minidsp (200$) with a umik 1 (100$) is an absolute must for untreated rooms. Cables can add up pretty quick. I think I have spent about $1000 in those. Speaker/hdmi/rca/power. Trust me it adds up pretty quick. You want to make cheaper mistakes first and then decide if you can live with those or you want to a mend it. The expensive mistakes will force you to live with them.

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post #8 of 33 Old 05-29-2020, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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First of all, thank you for all your replies in such a short time - they have been very helpful!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
It depends on how soon are you going to go from 5.1 to 5.2.4 and how badly do you need [email protected] or 8K - for gaming, anyway, because 4K HFR or 8K video content is faraway...
The X4500H successor is the AVC-X4700H, it has only 1 8K input (in fact, all 2020 D+M units have only 1 8K input).
If you do not need 4K HFR or 8K you can use any 2018/2019 eARC receiver together with an 4K/8K eARC TV.
I will probably go to 5.1.4 within a few months of getting the 5.1 system, so a bigger AVR probably makes sense. As for 8k etc, I don't really need it, so waiting for the 4700 isn't necessary I guess.


Quote:
The Atmos experience that you get from Dolby Atmos Enabled Speakers (DAES) is a little different than when you have speakers on/in ceiling - and it depends on a lot of factors, the quality of the DAES masking of the drive, the distance from DAES to MLP, the height of the DAES versus your ear level height (DAES speakers MUST be well above ear level!!!), the ceiling type/angle/height. I have this kind of setup and the results are more diffuse and unprecise, but it works as a compromise solution if you can't install in/on ceiling speakers. A setup with DAES can be tricky and it may work in your case or not. Too many variables to tell.

Yes, absolutely go for 4 Atmos speakers. 2 are good, but you get better imaging and precision with 4.
Thank you for this information! I have been looking for some detailed information about those kinds of speakers.


Quote:
Purists/audiophiles will tell you a bunch of nonsense, you do what you please with your money but I am very pleased with the Stereo sound I get from my AVRs - the Stereo experience depends mainly to the quality of your main L+R speakers and the subwoofer (if used for music), so do not invest in cheap main speakers, go for the quality.
I had a feeling about this. So I will definitely just use my AVR for everything and I am sure I will be happy with the result in terms of stereo performance.


I saw some of you are actually from Europe. Does anyone know the German speaker manufacturer Teufel? I am looking at their Definion 3 5.1 set. I heard it before in person and liked it a lot. Unfortunately, I have no comparison right now. Like I said, this is all new to me. I am planning on checking out some more speakers soon. Any opinions on Teufel speakers in general?
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post #9 of 33 Old 05-29-2020, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BhootZ View Post
In fact if I may change my opinion, I'll suggest for a HTIB to begin with.
I had one of those before from Yamaha that cost me about $800. That is about all the home theater experience I have.

Quote:
A minidsp (200$) with a umik 1 (100$) is an absolute must for untreated rooms.
Is this to do the automatic speaker setup with the AVR? Doesn't it come with a mic to do the setup? Or are those mics not any good?
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post #10 of 33 Old 05-29-2020, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post

Is this to do the automatic speaker setup with the AVR? Doesn't it come with a mic to do the setup? Or are those mics not any good?
The mic system with the avr is good, but not very good for subwoofers. When you go big on subwoofers the room modes start affecting certain frequencies making the woofer boomy and muddy. May even make the woofer amp exceed limits. This is intermediate to advanced equipment and definitely more advanced than the AVR.

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Does anyone know the German speaker manufacturer Teufel?
Heard about the brand, but did not listen any Teufel speaker. No experience with them, sorry.

I like the Wharfedale sound and I have lots of Wharfedale speakers in my house, mainly the Diamond 225 line for the main speakers + the Crystal 4 line for surrounds and Atmos and also Emotiva subwoofers.
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post #12 of 33 Old 05-30-2020, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again for all the advice. I guess I will try to listen to a few different speakers over the next few weeks. I think the Denon 3600 or 4500 will be a good solution for me since I will be ready for 5.1.4 without having to replace my receiver. I will let you know once I actually make a decision and let you know I feel about it in the end.
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post #13 of 33 Old 06-11-2020, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
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I just realized that the speakers I am looking at seem to be rather inefficient being 4 ohm speakers rated at 86dB/1m. Size of my room and listening position is in the first post of this thread. Should I be planning on getting an external amp at least for the FR + FL or is the power of the 3600 or 4500 enough (I guess at this point probably 3700 or 4700)?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
I just realized that the speakers I am looking at seem to be rather inefficient being 4 ohm speakers rated at 86dB/1m. Size of my room and listening position is in the first post of this thread. Should I be planning on getting an external amp at least for the FR + FL or is the power of the 3600 or 4500 enough (I guess at this point probably 3700 or 4700)?
Before any plan, you should assess the situation by using something like Max SPL Calculator v6 (Excel file) from this page: http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013322spl-calculator/

Only this way you can see if you need external amps for your specific speakers and your specific room.
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post #15 of 33 Old 06-11-2020, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Before any plan, you should assess the situation by using something like Max SPL Calculator v6 (Excel file) from this page: http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013322spl-calculator/

Only this way you can see if you need external amps for your specific speakers and your specific room.
Thank you so much for this link, however, I am not sure I did this correctly since my result is that I need 482W of amplification.

I attached screenshots of the specifications of the speaker and what I entered into the spreadsheet. I have a few questions:

1. It seems that the manufacturer listed the sensitivity at 2.83V instead of 1W. It says in the article that this means that it needs 2W at 1m to achieve 86dB. How do I account for this in the spreadsheet?

2. Does it make sense to assume that I want to achieve peaks of 105dB at my listening position if the speaker can do a maximum of 105dB at 1m?

3. The speaker manufacturer lists the impedance on the website as 4-8ohms, the spec sheet/manual says 4 ohms. I understand from doing some google research that the impedance of the speaker changes, but what impedance do I use in the spreadsheet?

Also, I am living in an apartment with upstairs and downstairs neighbors and cannot watch movies with the speakers running at reference levels anyway. I am not sure how to account for that in the calculation.

Sorry about all of these questions. It seems like the more I learn about how to figure out the right amp size, the more confused I am.
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post #16 of 33 Old 06-11-2020, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
Thank you so much for this link, however, I am not sure I did this correctly since my result is that I need 482W of amplification.
This seems correct because:
a) your speakers are very inefficient
b) the target SPL is 105dB - this is LOUD!!!
c) be aware that the required power (482W) exceeds the peak power of the speaker (200W). You can burn the coil in the speaker... So set the SPL target accordingly, so you stay well below 200W...


Quote:
Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
1. It seems that the manufacturer listed the sensitivity at 2.83V instead of 1W. It says in the article that this means that it needs 2W at 1m to achieve 86dB. How do I account for this in the spreadsheet?
This is a manufacturer trick - a 4 ohm speaker will quote the sensitivity at 2.83V/1m to sound more efficient than it is...
When using 2.83 volts into 4 ohms, you will need to reduce the speaker sensitivity figure by 3dB to obtain the correct result.
Remember - doubling the amplifier power (to 2 watts) adds 3dB to the speaker output. So to halve the output (back to 1 watt), you need to subtract 3dB.
So, 86dB - 3dB = 83dB @ 1W - the real sensitivity.
You can set the correction in the "Speaker Efficiency Adjustment" field - set the field to 3.



Quote:
Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
2. Does it make sense to assume that I want to achieve peaks of 105dB at my listening position if the speaker can do a maximum of 105dB at 1m?
Unless you want to be evicted..., no.
Most users have the Main Volume at -20dB - this means 85dB (where 0dB MV = 105dB).
So you can target 80-90dB instead of the 105dB reference. Watch the Peak Power value!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
3. The speaker manufacturer lists the impedance on the website as 4-8ohms, the spec sheet/manual says 4 ohms. I understand from doing some google research that the impedance of the speaker changes, but what impedance do I use in the spreadsheet?
Probably 4 ohms.



Quote:
Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
Also, I am living in an apartment with upstairs and downstairs neighbors and cannot watch movies with the speakers running at reference levels anyway. I am not sure how to account for that in the calculation.
Target lower SPL Required level (below the 105dB reference).



Quote:
Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
Sorry about all of these questions. It seems like the more I learn about how to figure out the right amp size, the more confused I am.
This is normal - but if you want to learn it becomes easy.
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post #17 of 33 Old 06-11-2020, 10:54 AM
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Introducing your speaker data results that you cannot expect more than 98dB Peak SPL (78 avg. pgm. + 20 headroom) from your speakers in your room and you need no more than an 100W RMS amp for them.
So, you are well within the X3600H limits (105W).
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post #18 of 33 Old 06-11-2020, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Introducing your speaker data results that you cannot expect more than 98dB Peak SPL (78 avg. pgm. + 20 headroom) from your speakers in your room and you need no more than an 100W RMS amp for them.
So, you are well within the X3600H limits (105W).
Thank you so so much for this!! Also, thanks for all the explanations above! I definitely want to learn, but also want to avoid asking a lot of annoying questions that have been asked a million times here already.

It sounds like 98dB is more than enough since I am living in an apartment. I read that the Denon amps now have this 70% guarantee that the amp will deliver at least 70% of power with all channels driven. Is that still enough to accomplish the desired dB if I am running a 5.1.4 setup? Also, could clipping become an issue using a 3700 or 4700 by itself? I remember reading a couple days ago that you should get an amplifier that exceeds your speakers' limits to avoid clipping - is this true?

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post #19 of 33 Old 06-11-2020, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
Thank you so so much for this!! Also, thanks for all the explanations above!
You're welcome!

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Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
It sounds like 98dB is more than enough since I am living in an apartment.
Indeed!

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Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
I read that the Denon amps now have this 70% guarantee that the amp will deliver at least 70% of power with all channels driven.
True.


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Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
Is that still enough to accomplish the desired dB if I am running a 5.1.4 setup?
Yes.

I am using speakers similar to yours with an X3600H in a 5.2.4 setup with no problems at all - I am unable to run that setup at 0dB Reference level because it is TOO LOUD for my room (10 feet to MLP), and no, my speakers are not capable of 105dB!

If you must target 0dB Reference the room must be treated acoustically in a professional way, which is very hard to do in an apartment...
Only after that treatment, you will feel the need for more power and better speakers.


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Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
Also, could clipping become an issue using a 3700 or 4700 by itself?
Not if you calibrate your system - using the integrated Room Correction - Audyssey.


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Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
I remember reading a couple days ago that you should get an amplifier that exceeds your speakers limits to avoid clipping - is this true?
That SPL calculator is used exactly so that you do not need to guess about speakers and power and amps. You will find many advices scattered on the Internet...
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post #20 of 33 Old 06-11-2020, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again. I have to say that I am very happy that it sounds like I do not have to worry about external amplification.
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post #21 of 33 Old 06-14-2020, 04:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a question concerning the rear speaker setup/height. I will be using bookshelf speakers on stands. I am not sure about the exact speakers yet, but I am currently looking at the Teufel speakers I mentioned earlier and also KEF LS50, Q150, and Q350. The problem is that I cannot find a speaker stand from any manufacturer that would place the speakers at ear level or above. The speakers should be at or above ear level, right? Even if it is just to have the possibility to install DAES later on as we discussed earlier. Ear level on my sofa is at about 40" and most speaker stands seem to be 22-26" inches tall. Adding a bookshelf speaker on top usually ends up being at least 2-3" below ear level. Are there any other possibilities or speaker stands that come in all sorts of sizes that will work with any speaker?
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post #22 of 33 Old 06-14-2020, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
Thank you so so much for this!! Also, thanks for all the explanations above! I definitely want to learn, but also want to avoid asking a lot of annoying questions that have been asked a million times here already.

It sounds like 98dB is more than enough since I am living in an apartment. I read that the Denon amps now have this 70% guarantee that the amp will deliver at least 70% of power with all channels driven. Is that still enough to accomplish the desired dB if I am running a 5.1.4 setup? Also, could clipping become an issue using a 3700 or 4700 by itself? I remember reading a couple days ago that you should get an amplifier that exceeds your speakers' limits to avoid clipping - is this true?

This is one of my favorite guarantees The equipment to accurately measure the multi-channel output including distortion of an AVR will likely cost a lot more than the AVR.

Is an owner actually going to be listening to a 9-channel system and think, "WOW, I don't think I'm getting 70% of rated power per channel," and then procure the equipment or pay for measurements? The measurements would need to be of the owner's actual piece of equipment. Per memory I don't remember seeing all channel driven measurements for 9-channel equipment and above from any source.
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post #23 of 33 Old 06-14-2020, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
I read that the Denon amps now have this 70% guarantee that the amp will deliver at least 70% of power with all channels driven.
The claims made by Denon are in fact for 5 channels driven not all channels driven, well according to the X6700H with 11 amps, their 70% guarantee claim is for only 5 channels driven.
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post #24 of 33 Old 06-17-2020, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
Are there any other possibilities or speaker stands that come in all sorts of sizes that will work with any speaker?
Just a caution, but the higher the stand the more unstable your speaker tends to be making it much easier to tip with disastrous consequences for the speaker and what it hits including you and yours.

Tall speakers stands are very rare - you enter in custom stands area.

And yes, side surrounds and rear surrounds should be higher than ear level - see the attached diagram.

But if you can't put them higher you can direct them not toward MLP but toward the opposite front speaker, so the direct sound will not point right at your ear.
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post

And yes, side surrounds and rear surrounds should be higher than ear level - see the attached diagram.
So can I only do this properly by using speakers that are not ported and then wall mount them for surrounds?

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But if you can't put them higher you can direct them not toward MLP but toward the opposite front speaker, so the direct sound will not point right at your ear.
Do you mean RL towards FL and RR towards FR? Does that not negatively effect the sound?

Also, the FL, FR tower speakers I am looking at cost 1500 and the RL, RR bookshelf speakers 900. If the stands end up being very expensive, I may as well get another pair of the same tower speakers for the rear setup instead of spending the same money on bookshelf speakers + stands. That seems like it would really be overkill for surround speakers though.

I also attached a sketch of my living room - I realized I forgot to do that in my original post and maybe this will help. The front speakers will be placed to the left, right, and middle of the TV unit (TV Bank). The rear speakers will be placed to the left and right of the book case (Bucherregal). I am hoping to extend it to 5.1.4 by placing DAES on top of the FL, FR, RL, RR speakers. My room is about 16' long and 14' wide, the ceiling is about 8' like I wrote in my first post.
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post #26 of 33 Old 06-17-2020, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
So can I only do this properly by using speakers that are not ported and then wall mount them for surrounds?


(snip)
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...guidelines.pdf

See page 8. The recommendation is that the fronts be at ear height, and that the surrounds be at ear height or up to 1.25X that. The surrounds are not required to be higher than ear height. You want to maintain height separation between the floor speakers and the overheads.

Those are Dolby Labs' recommendations, not mine.

Some speakers suitable for surrounds are front ported. I use rear ported ones, but they are mounted to give a small spacing away from the walls.
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post #27 of 33 Old 06-17-2020, 01:55 PM
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So can I only do this properly by using speakers that are not ported and then wall mount them for surrounds?
I use rear-ported speakers for all surround and height/Atmos speakers and all of them are wall-mounted (which means that are very close to the wall/ceiling). Sounds fine.

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Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
Do you mean RL towards FL and RR towards FR? Does that not negatively effect the sound?
You said that you have a 5.1 setup now.
That means that your "rear" speakers are in fact Surround Left + Surround Right - aka SL + SR.
Surround R+L are not practically REAR speakers (but 5.1 setups can place SL+SR a bit behind your side) - but SL+SR are more like SIDE speakers, not REAR speakers.

If you have a 7.1 setup, next to the SL+SR you have Surround Back Left + Surround Back Right - aka SBL + SBR.
Only Surround Back Left + Surround Back Right are true REAR speakers.

You can't have 7.1 without the base 5.1.
Accordingly, you can't have Atmos without the base 5.1 (L+C+R+SL+SR+SW).
Any sane device will not let you set up a 7.1.2 or 7.1.4 without SL+SR speakers - accordingly, SBL+SBR cannot be added if SL+SR are not configured. There are also similar rules for height/Atmos speakers. You can find those rules in the AVR manual.

Regarding directing the speakers away from MLP - that is necessary only if the Surround L+R speakers are (1) close to MLP or/and (2) at the ear level (and that might become uncomfortable for some). And SL is directed to the FR - SR is directed to the FL - not the way around.
Surround Back Left + Right speaker - SBL+SBR will be directed toward MLP - or, if SBL+SBR are at ear level and uncomfortable can be directed away from MLP, right to the front wall, perpendicular.


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Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
Also, the FL, FR tower speakers I am looking at cost 1500 and the RL, RR bookshelf speakers 900. If the stands end up being very expensive, I may as well get another pair of the same tower speakers for the rear setup instead of spending the same money on bookshelf speakers + stands. That seems like it would really be overkill for surround speakers though.
Only you can judge here.

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Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
I also attached a sketch of my living room - I realized I forgot to do that in my original post and maybe this will help. The front speakers will be placed to the left, right, and middle of the TV unit (TV Bank). The rear speakers will be placed to the left and right of the book case (Bucherregal). I am hoping to extend it to 5.1.4 by placing DAES on top of the FL, FR, RL, RR speakers. My room is about 16' long and 14' wide, the ceiling is about 8' like I wrote in my first post.
The position of SL+SR is a bit behind a normal side position - the position you mention is more fit for SBL+SBR (so for a 7.1 setup) with SL+SR closer to the sides of the couch.
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post #28 of 33 Old 06-18-2020, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...guidelines.pdf

See page 8. The recommendation is that the fronts be at ear height, and that the surrounds be at ear height or up to 1.25X that. The surrounds are not required to be higher than ear height. You want to maintain height separation between the floor speakers and the overheads.

Those are Dolby Labs' recommendations, not mine.
Thanks for that link! How bad is it really to have the surround speakers a little lower though? Let's say the front speakers are 4' tall and the surround speakers on a stand are 3' tall with my ear height being 3'4".
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post #29 of 33 Old 06-18-2020, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for your very detailed and helpful answer as always!

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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
You said that you have a 5.1 setup now.
That means that your "rear" speakers are in fact Surround Left + Surround Right - aka SL + SR.
Surround R+L are not practically REAR speakers (but 5.1 setups can place SL+SR a bit behind your side) - but SL+SR are more like SIDE speakers, not REAR speakers.

If you have a 7.1 setup, next to the SL+SR you have Surround Back Left + Surround Back Right - aka SBL + SBR.
Only Surround Back Left + Surround Back Right are true REAR speakers.

You can't have 7.1 without the base 5.1.
Accordingly, you can't have Atmos without the base 5.1 (L+C+R+SL+SR+SW).
Any sane device will not let you set up a 7.1.2 or 7.1.4 without SL+SR speakers - accordingly, SBL+SBR cannot be added if SL+SR are not configured. There are also similar rules for height/Atmos speakers. You can find those rules in the AVR manual.

Regarding directing the speakers away from MLP - that is necessary only if the Surround L+R speakers are (1) close to MLP or/and (2) at the ear level (and that might become uncomfortable for some). And SL is directed to the FR - SR is directed to the FL - not the way around.
Surround Back Left + Right speaker - SBL+SBR will be directed toward MLP - or, if SBL+SBR are at ear level and uncomfortable can be directed away from MLP, right to the front wall, perpendicular.
Thanks for explaining and clarifying. I had a feeling I was using the wrong nomenclature.

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Only you can judge here.
I understand that I obviously have to decide about what is best in terms of price. However, are there actually any disadvantages or advantages in using tower speakers as surround speakers? Or would I be simply throwing my money away? Even if having the surround speakers below ear level is somewhat acceptable for surround alone - if that is even the case - I feel like I almost have to consider tower speakers to get the DAES speakers to the necessary height to work properly since I do not see another option right now.

Quote:
The position of SL+SR is a bit behind a normal side position - the position you mention is more fit for SBL+SBR (so for a 7.1 setup) with SL+SR closer to the sides of the couch.
I know that my setup isn't great for the surround speakers but would you actually advise against doing it in my case? I feel like this is the best option given the room I have to work with. Do you have any different suggestions for the speaker placement in my room? Unfortunately, I cannot place the surround speakers to the side or slightly behind the couch because my dining table is in the way on one side.
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post #30 of 33 Old 06-19-2020, 08:10 AM
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However, are there actually any disadvantages or advantages in using tower speakers as surround speakers? Or would I be simply throwing my money away?
Towers are perfect if you listen to high volumes frequently and those towers are of very good quality and high power.
That means:
1. You have a house that is far from neighbors;
2. Your family is not annoyed by your listening levels or music preferences...

Otherwise, bookshelves will work just fine provided you fit them with a good quality subwoofer, with enough power to pressurize the room, the right bass management settings, etc..

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Even if having the surround speakers below ear level is somewhat acceptable for surround alone - if that is even the case - I feel like I almost have to consider tower speakers to get the DAES speakers to the necessary height to work properly since I do not see another option right now.
Your room probably will not sound good with DAES because:
1. you want to make a 5.1.4, but your Surround speakers are far behind your MLP, and that great distance will require a very high ceiling so that the reflected sound has a chance to arrive at the MLP. The actual path of the sound can be calculated in a drawing app, such as MS Visio.
2. It is possible that also your front DAES to not have enough ceiling height so that the reflected sound to arrive at the MLP - that also needs to be calculated - so you not need to waste money and then wonder why it does not sound good.
3. a usual ceiling height will force you to put DAES pretty high (higher than any tower speaker) and use very good DAES with good masking (drivers deep in the box, with absorbing padding all around the driver, but especially at the front of the driver) so you can minimize the direct sound that kills any DAES setup that is placed at the wrong height relative to the ceiling height and distance to the MLP - this is why you need to calculate things and why most DAES setups sound very, very mild and unconvincing - because most DAES users hear mostly direct sound and less the reflected sound (hence the lack of true "from above" sounds).

Look at the attached diagram - that is a usual room, with a usual bookshelf speaker, placed at a usual height (ear-level) that has the usual DAES on top, with the usual 20 degrees DAES baffle angle.
- you can see very clearly that the direct sound (blue dotted line) has a good chance to get the MLP ears (this is why you need a very good DAES, with the drive position deep into the box and good padding, so the direct sounds are masked/absorbed);
- you can see that the first reflection (red dotted line) arrives in the front of the MLP (this is why compact DAES setup work, in very small rooms, TV very close, speakers very close) - your Surround DAES will not even have a chance to send audio to your ears...;
- the second reflection (green dotted line) shows what you can do to mitigate a DAES in an average room - rotate the speaker so that it points to the front wall so the sound is reflected twice - but that compromises even more the setup, the sound imaging will suffer, the sounds will be even more diffused and imprecise than with first reflection setup... The second reflection works only if the front and back walls are clean of furniture or other objects. And the rotated speakers probably will look ugly as hell - and you need some mounts for them to hold them at the right angle and the right distance from the front+rear walls.

DAES is very tricky to sound good if the ceiling height does not help you.

With low ceilings you need a compact DAES setup (speakers closer to MLP, set at above ear-level) - this restricts the distance between MLP and the screen and works only in small rooms.
Medium or Large rooms need high and very high ceilings height to sound good with DAES.

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Originally Posted by thorsten89 View Post
I know that my setup isn't great for the surround speakers but would you actually advise against doing it in my case? I feel like this is the best option given the room I have to work with. Do you have any different suggestions for the speaker placement in my room? Unfortunately, I cannot place the surround speakers to the side or slightly behind the couch because my dining table is in the way on one side.
You can test the current placement, and see how it sounds. If it sounds good to you, OK.

The room is restrictive and if you can't put speakers in/on the ceiling or at the ceiling/wall corner there is not much you can do...
And DAES has a low chance to work, in my opinion.
You have a better chance with a standard Atmos setup, with speakers on the ceiling, and the Surrounds at their standard angle (90-100) - even if asymmetric - the calibration will take care of the asymmetry - see your diagram attached - modified by me.
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