"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1295 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #38821 of 79637 Old 04-10-2011, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ReneV View Post

Yes, you're right. My statement was an unfortunate case of computer-science centrism, I'm afraid, where expensive first and foremost relates to algorithms' CPU and/or memory requirements, either asymptotically or relative to any real-time demands there might be.

I did not intend to say anything about licensing or purchasing costs, or anything of the kind.

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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Expensive in terms of processing resources.

So I understood but that doesn't mean it was clear to all.

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post #38822 of 79637 Old 04-10-2011, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I would replace the word "expensive" with either "intensive" or "complex" but I understand what you are saying.

Yes, you're right. My statement was an unfortunate case of computer-science centrism, I'm afraid, where expensive first and foremost relates to algorithms' CPU and/or memory requirements, either asymptotically or relative to any real-time demands there might be.

I did not intend to say anything about licensing or purchasing costs, or anything of the kind.
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post #38823 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 02:59 AM
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Hi all Audyssey gurus,
Is this a bug in calculations by Audyssey?

I think i have read pretty much everything on the net about Audyssey but i seem to be the only one having issues with way too much bass when I use dual subs.
I have a onkyo tx-nr 1007.
I am using a satellite, Atlantic technology 4.5 speaker system + 1 extra NHT Subwoofer.

With all the calibrations and positions I have tested the end result have always been way too much bass.
If I only use the Atlantic sub it sounds pretty ok but if I add an extra to get more headroom and dynamics it sounds crap.
Onkyo Tx-nr 1007 should supports this and should do individual measurements for each sub regarding frequency,distances and volume.
Yesterday I did another experiment by unplugging subwoofer nr 2 from the Tx-nr 1007. (total volume of bass went down)
Tx-nr 1007 was still configured to play with dual subs but one sub was physically disconnected.
When I changed the setting in Tx-nr 1007 from 2 subs to 1 I expected volume to go up on the remaining subs to compensate for the lost volume but nothing changes.
As a matter of fact the onkyo Tx-nr 1007 sets exactly the same volume to each sub no matter if it's one or two connected, if they are measured together or just one by one.
Is it me misunderstanding something or is this a nasty bug in the calculations for the Onkyo Tx-nr 1007?
Please advise me someone who knows.
Br JS
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post #38824 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 03:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

On my AVR DVol and DEQ are not coupled. Either can be used independently or they can be used together.

Just curious; do you notice any difference in sound when you use Dynamic Volume without Dynamic EQ compared to when using Dynamic Volume with Dynamic EQ?
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post #38825 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 03:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiofiler View Post

Thanks Keith.

I noticed that somehow all my speaker crossovers defaulted to 80hz. I did not make those changes, though.

I had just ran xt32 too but the xo levels set by Audyssey were different than 80hz across the board.

Wonder how that happened and if related to me changing listening modes had something to do with it.

Audyssey detects the XO point as being -3dB from the lowest frequency it measures during the calibration. Changing the calibration mic positions, using a different measuring technique etc can make the XOs different from the last run you made. If you are always consistent in where you place the mic, always use a mic stand, always have the mic at the same height etc, then the XOs will be set consistenty in my experience. It is OK to move the XO higher manually but not lower. 80Hz is a good starting point so long as Audyssey did not set them initially higher than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiofiler View Post

Another thing I noticed with the last xt32 run was that it set the xo for my center channel to 60hz. On the previous Audyssey settings the system set this speaker at 70hz. The speaker is rated at 80hz.

Like I say, this is fairly normal and can happen if anything is slightly different during the calibration. If it was set to 60Hz it's perfectly OK to move it up to 70Hz or higher if you wish.

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Originally Posted by Audiofiler View Post

Also, I just installed Surround side speakers in the ceiling. They are rated at 55hz. Audyssey set these at 150hz, which does not make sense to me. They are Of higher quality than the other 5 in-wall speakers..

First off, manufacturer's specifications are often way off beam compared to the real, in-room response. That alleged 55Hz may have been measured in an anechoic chamber for example. It is the location of the speakers in your actual room that Audyssey measures. The position of the speakers, even the material that the ceiling is made of, will all have a bearing on the actual in-room FR the speakers achieve. For small (I assume they are fairly small) speakers mounted in a ceiling I wouldn't think an Audyssey XO of 150Hz was all that unusual. Audyssey used to set my Kef 'eggs' that I used to use for height speakers to 150Hz too but the sound was terrific.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiofiler View Post

For most BD/DVD, these speakers will be the rear's. We will see what Audyssey sets them at here this run. I would not really want to leave them 150 with my setup if possible. Even with two subs. The sound was localizeable with xo at 150hz for them.

If you can localise the LF then yes, you do have an issue that needs addressing. Be sure you are following the Audyssey setup guide to the letter (it's linked in post 1 here) and re-run the calibration to see what you get. The problem you have is that if you lower the Audyssey-detected XO from 150Hz to, say, 90Hz, then you will have an uncorrected 'hole' in your Audyssey calibration from 150 down to 90. This may, however, be prefererable than localising the subs.

Kind Regards,

Keith
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post #38826 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 05:09 AM
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Silverlw,

Are your subwoofer equal distance to the listening position?

When switching from one subwoofer to two and back, are you rerunning Audyssey?
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post #38827 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 07:15 AM
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Hi JimP,
Thank you for your feedback.
Atlantic is at 3.30 meters, NHT is at 2.55 meters.
If i rerun calibration it seems to set about the same volume for each sub no matter if i calibrate the system with one sub or dual.
TX-nr1007 pings the subs individually, sets all values and should calibrate them to play together if im correctly informed.
Br JS
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post #38828 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverlw View Post

Hi all Audyssey gurus,
Is this a bug in calculations by Audyssey?

I think i have read pretty much everything on the net about Audyssey but i seem to be the only one having issues with way too much bass when I use dual subs.
I have a onkyo tx-nr 1007.
I am using a satellite, Atlantic technology 4.5 speaker system + 1 extra NHT Subwoofer.

With all the calibrations and positions I have tested the end result have always been way too much bass.
If I only use the Atlantic sub it sounds pretty ok but if I add an extra to get more headroom and dynamics it sounds crap.
Onkyo Tx-nr 1007 should supports this and should do individual measurements for each sub regarding frequency,distances and volume.
Yesterday I did another experiment by unplugging subwoofer nr 2 from the Tx-nr 1007. (total volume of bass went down)
Tx-nr 1007 was still configured to play with dual subs but one sub was physically disconnected.
When I changed the setting in Tx-nr 1007 from 2 subs to 1 I expected volume to go up on the remaining subs to compensate for the lost volume but nothing changes.
As a matter of fact the onkyo Tx-nr 1007 sets exactly the same volume to each sub no matter if it’s one or two connected, if they are measured together or just one by one.
Is it me misunderstanding something or is this a nasty bug in the calculations for the Onkyo Tx-nr 1007?
Please advise me someone who knows.
Br JS

The implementation of Sub EQ HT in the x007-models is only partly done, they left out the part where subs should be pinged together and have the trim levels set correctly.
Basically I think you have two choices: either you would have set the level of subs manually after Audyssey or use a splitter from PRE OUT SW1 to both subwoofers.
Onkyo finally implemented Sub EQ HT in the x008-models.
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post #38829 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

OK. I don't know what to believe.

Sure.

Still I'd really like to know if the Pro Kit is getting crossover limits from the AVR or if Pro Kit is recommending full-range.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
UDP-203/ATV4K(6,2)/X3500H/LG C8
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post #38830 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 07:46 AM
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Silverlw,

Are you using the Sub 1 and Sub 2 outputs on your 1007, each for an individual sub? That could be your problem.

With that hookup Audyssey pings your two subs seperately on your 1007, but does not ping them together during final calibration. The result is that your sub 1 level is set correctly (at say -12dB) and so is the sub 2 level, but when both subs are used together they may add 6dB to your actual sound level.

The answer is to hook up both subs to your Sub 1 output using a Y-adaptor and re-run the Audyssey setup. Chances are that you'll find that the combined level of both subs will read -15dB, which is over the limit that Audyssey can correct. To correct that you should turn down the gain controls on both subs (for example, if you have them at 12 o'clock turn them down to 10 o'clock) and run Audyssey again. Keep doing this until your sub level calibration reads somewhere under -12dB. That should take care of the problem.

I'm speaking from experience, as I had the same problem when I first installed an additional sub in my system. I was advised here to use the Sub 1 and Y-adaptor method and it worked perfectly. In my particular case each sub measured -12dB individually with their respective gain controls set at 12 o'clock which is within Audyssey's ability to calibrate them (maximum is -15dB) when run individually. My combined level turned out to be -15 dB which is up against the maximum and no doubt past it in my case. After hooking them both up to Sub 1 with the Y-adaptor and turning their gain controls down to 10 o'clock Audyssey set the sub level to -9 dB and I've not had the excessive bass problem since.

Cheers,
SB
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post #38831 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 08:21 AM
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Richardl, SpotcheckBilly,
Thank you for both your inputs in this matter.
If it is so as Richardl said:
"The implementation of Sub EQ HT in the x007-models is only partly done, they left out the part where subs should be pinged together and have the trim levels set correctly.", then i feel real a**f*ck*d since that specific function was the major contribution that made me upgrade my old amplifier to this TX-NR1007 instead. I even checked it with Onkyo themselfs that TX-NR1007 really had SubEQ HT for the subs before i procured the amp.
Oboy how many hours of testing ive spent on this...
I could not imagine that Mult.EQ XT and Sub EQ HT was flawed.

Well thank you very much both of you for clarifying this mystery to me.
Now im gonna use your advises and do some tests with subs at equal distance and a Y-cable instead.
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post #38832 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Sure.

Still I'd really like to know if the Pro Kit is getting crossover limits from the AVR or if Pro Kit is recommending full-range.

I'd bet it's at least only offering crossovers that are options on the hardware. Beyond that, who knows?

Jeff

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post #38833 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverlw View Post

Richardl, SpotcheckBilly,
Thank you for both your inputs in this matter.
If it is so as Richardl said:
"The implementation of Sub EQ HT in the x007-models is only partly done, they left out the part where subs should be pinged together and have the trim levels set correctly.", then i feel real a**f*ck*d since that specific function was the major contribution that made me upgrade my old amplifier to this TX-NR1007 instead. I even checked it with Onkyo themselfs that TX-NR1007 really had SubEQ HT for the subs before i procured the amp.
Oboy how many hours of testing ive spent on this...
I could not imagine that Mult.EQ XT and Sub EQ HT was flawed.

Well thank you very much both of you for clarifying this mystery to me.
Now im gonna use your advises and do some tests with subs at equal distance and a Y-cable instead.

Parts from the previous discussion:
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

SB your message the other day made me check with Onkyo. Much to my surprise they only implemented part of Sub EQ HT in the xx07 models. Sub EQ HT is basically the functionality that comes in the stand-alone Sub EQ processor from Audyssey. In the PC software you can run the two subs as 1-in to 2-out (which is what I was referring to earlier) and 2-in to 2-out. Well, apparently Onkyo only decided to implement the 2-in to 2-out mode. They added the other mode in the xx08 models. Confusing? Yes... I apologize for adding to the confusion. You still have a very good product with the ability for MultEQ to individually control the time delay, level, and room correction filter of each sub. This is a feature that took a very long time to convince manufacturers to implement. The 1-in to 2-out mode is a further enhancement that was added to the xx08 models.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

You can achieve the same benefit by doing a little work before running MultEQ. First, set the level of the subs so that they are as close as possible to each other at the listening position. If you can, try to place them at equal distance from the center listening position. Then, use a y-cord to feed the two subs from a single Sub Out of the xx07. Then run MultEQ so that it pings them together as one.

If you go the route to have MultEQ individually control the time delay, level, and room correction filter of each sub,
the manual adjustment to the subwoofers' trim levels would probably be between -3dB and -6dB to get you in the ballpark.
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post #38834 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Beyond that, who knows?

The punchline to an old joke: "The Shadow, he do!"

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #38835 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverlw View Post

Richardl, SpotcheckBilly,
Thank you for both your inputs in this matter.
If it is so as Richardl said:
"The implementation of Sub EQ HT in the x007-models is only partly done, they left out the part where subs should be pinged together and have the trim levels set correctly.", then i feel real a**f*ck*d since that specific function was the major contribution that made me upgrade my old amplifier to this TX-NR1007 instead. I even checked it with Onkyo themselfs that TX-NR1007 really had SubEQ HT for the subs before i procured the amp.
Oboy how many hours of testing ive spent on this...
I could not imagine that Mult.EQ XT and Sub EQ HT was flawed.

I found out about this after questioning Audyssey (Chris) here on this thread. At first I pointed a finger at Audyssey, blaming them for the problem, but it seems that even the Audyssey CTO was not aware of the half a**ed way that Onkyo/Integra chose to implement Sub EQ HT in their x007 and x.1 models. I was quite disappointed after discovering it, but I can honestly say that after performing the Y-cable workaround I am very satisfied with the SQ I'm now hearing as I suspect you'll be with yours.

So chin up, and try to make the best of an unfortunate situation.

Cheers,
SB
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post #38836 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 01:19 PM
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Just another example of having ethernet hookup to these devices for updates.

Now if you can only get the manufacture to update their products after the next model comes out.
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post #38837 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Just another example of having ethernet hookup to these devices for updates.

Now if you can only get the manufacture to update their products after the next model comes out.

JimP,

Yes, it would be great if the mfg. continued to release updates long after the new models hit the marketplace. It's so easy to do a firmware update via ethernet it would be a shame not to have that ability far into the service life of my AVR.

But I have a question about the first sentence in your above post. What does it refer to in the context of this thread? Maybe I'm slow, but I'm just not getting it

Cheers,
SB
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post #38838 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Sure.
Still I'd really like to know if the Pro Kit is getting crossover limits from the AVR or if Pro Kit is recommending full-range.
I suspect the following quote from Chris is what you are referring to. It turns out that even in the Pro implementation, Audyssey is restricted by the rules of the AVR manufacturers, one of which requires that if the roll off of a speaker is below a certain frequency, it must be set to Large.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post
Not really. Despite our best efforts, we have been unable to convince AVR makers that speakers should not be set to Large if there is a subwoofer in the system. So, with MultEQ Pro (as with MultEQ) we have to abide by their rules: Speakers are set to Large if the roll off is found to be 40 Hz or below. One day we will be strong and powerful and get rid of this silly rule
Mark
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post #38839 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post
It turns out that even in the Pro implementation, Audyssey is restricted by the rules of the AVR manufacturers
And it's even a recent comment.

Thanks.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #38840 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 07:38 PM
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My thinking is that if MultEQ Pro (or MultEQ) "recommends" a "Large" speaker setting, you should check the actual low frequency response of your speaker. If it goes decently low, you may opt to keep the "Large" setting -- maybe the advantage is precisely that there is no need for a crossover?

In my case, my front speakers theoretically go down to 25 Hz and the "before" chart of MultEQ Pro confirms that so I've decided to set the speakers as "Large". I am guessing that most of the sub-25 Hz signals go to the LFE channel anyhow so I think I'm not losing anything.

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post #38841 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post
I am guessing that most of the sub-25 Hz signals go to the LFE channel anyhow so I think I'm not losing anything.

Mark
I wish I knew the answer to that question. It is my understanding that if you do not have a crossover for the mains, that the ONLY thing that will go to the subs is the LFE content.

My question is (and has been for a very long time), what low frequency content goes to mains that can handle it? Explosions from action movies? (I think not). Music scores that have low frequency content? (I think so). What else.

I ask because I am about to re-install very full range main speakers (sub 20Hz ability) and am wondering what the downside and upside are of setting them to full for movies? (I have the Integra 80.2 so get X32 resolution all across the full frequency spectrum). If high energy explosions were included, I would definitely use a crossover and have the subs handle it?

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post #38842 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post
My thinking is that if MultEQ Pro (or MultEQ) "recommends" a "Large" speaker setting, you should check the actual low frequency response of your speaker. If it goes decently low, you may opt to keep the "Large" setting -- maybe the advantage is precisely that there is no need for a crossover?

In my case, my front speakers theoretically go down to 25 Hz and the "before" chart of MultEQ Pro confirms that so I've decided to set the speakers as "Large". I am guessing that most of the sub-25 Hz signals go to the LFE channel anyhow so I think I'm not losing anything.

Mark
If you leave the front speakers set to large, doesn't that mean that bass frequencies are reproduced in both the mains and the sub simultaneously? Isn't this the dreaded "double bass"?

Regardless of the ability of the mains to reproduce low frequencies, the sub (or subs) are designed specifically to handle bass frequencies, so why not let them do their job by re-directing all bass below the x-over by setting the mains to small? If you want the mains to reproduce the bass, why have subwoofers? I just don't understand.
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post #38843 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post


If you leave the front speakers set to large, doesn't that mean that bass frequencies are reproduced in both the mains and the sub simultaneously? Isn't this the dreaded "double bass"?

Regardless of the ability of the mains to reproduce low frequencies, the sub (or subs) are designed specifically to handle bass frequencies, so why not let them do their job by re-directing all bass below the x-over by setting the mains to small? If you want the mains to reproduce the bass, why have subwoofers? I just don't understand.

Perhaps the use of two subs in lieu of the mains for very low frequencies could help or reduce standing waves for very low sounds in music. Clearly the sats and center will need the sub.

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post #38844 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 08:36 PM
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^Double bass is when the sub is set to LFE+Main and speakers are set to Large.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #38845 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I wish I knew the answer to that question. It is my understanding that if you do not have a crossover for the mains, that the ONLY thing that will go to the subs is the LFE content.

My question is (and has been for a very long time), what low frequency content goes to mains that can handle it? Explosions from action movies? (I think not). Music scores that have low frequency content? (I think so). What else.

I ask because I am about to re-install very full range main speakers (sub 20Hz ability) and am wondering what the downside and upside are of setting them to full for movies? (I have the Integra 80.2 so get X32 resolution all across the full frequency spectrum). If high energy explosions were included, I would definitely use a crossover and have the subs handle it?

I agree with your guess -- that explosions go to the LFE channel while low-frequency music goes to the mains. However, I would also guess that there will be an occasional film whose mixer decided to put an explosion in a main speaker.

Therefore, to be safe, you need a huge power amp for "Large" speakers and you have to be sure that the main speakers can handle explosions.

Mark
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post #38846 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 08:53 PM
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I positioned my mains for optimal imaging and soundstage and positioned the sub for smoothest bass. In addition to offloading the work to the sub, for MultEQ and MultEQXT, it is advantageous to have a sub and a crossover set to something like 80 Hz because the sub channel has extra filters. I recommend one try out the various options and decide what settings sound best. There are no simple correct answers which apply to everyone because of the many variables including the room, speaker/sub position, equipment, source, etc.

As I understand it, the standard is set so that a film soundtrack does not require a sub, so good explosion sounds are included in satellite channel content. But LFE enhancement of explosions is limited to the LFE channel and that is not sent to the mains.

Many AVRs allow a separate setting for Stereo mode. Some people prefer to use their surround system's very capable mains as 2.0 (large, no sub) for stereo.

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post #38847 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

If you leave the front speakers set to large, doesn't that mean that bass frequencies are reproduced in both the mains and the sub simultaneously? Isn't this the dreaded "double bass"?

No. The bass of the front speakers will not go to the subs if they are "Large". As SOM said, that only happens when the sub is set to LFE+Main.

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Regardless of the ability of the mains to reproduce low frequencies, the sub (or subs) are designed specifically to handle bass frequencies, so why not let them do their job by re-directing all bass below the x-over by setting the mains to small? If you want the mains to reproduce the bass, why have subwoofers? I just don't understand.

You are correct. I guess the main reason I can think of is that your main speakers are so good that their bass output is cleaner than the subs. I'm also not sure but I would think that in theory, the absence of a crossover should help improve sound quality. Finally, I am thinking that if the front speakers are also reproducing deep bass, you effectively have 2 more subs in the room, thus helping bass output even more and perhaps helping to randomize the sources of bass.

I wonder if this makes sense.

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post #38848 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

Therefore, to be safe, you need a huge power amp for "Large" speakers and you have to be sure that the main speakers can handle explosions.

Mark

I have big amps (Bryston 7B-ST) and my mains are Dunlavy SC-VI's each with dual 15 inch drivers. But I have 4 Seaton Submersives (consisting of eight 15 inch drivers and 9600 watts of power!!) so would prefer to have all true LFE sound go to the subs.

Is there anyone who posts here who works on movie soundtracks who can answer this question?

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post #38849 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

In addition to offloading the work to the sub, for MultEQ and MultEQXT, it is advantageous to have a sub and a crossover set to something like 80 Hz because the sub channel has extra filters.

True, except when your AVR has MultEQ XT32, such as my Denon 4311.

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post #38850 of 79637 Old 04-11-2011, 09:09 PM
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Is there anyone who posts here who works on movie soundtracks who can answer this question?

Film Mixer. He posts here regularly.
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