"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2570 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #77071 of 79637 Old 09-09-2015, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

Thanks for the pictures. That looks as if it is a fun space, especially with overhead speakers. Someone else may have some placement suggestions, but I can't really see many options to what you have already done. If you toe the fronts in more, you may get better sound at the MLP, but lose a little bit for the other two seats, so that is something you would just have to try and see what happens. Given the fairly narrow spacing of the fronts, which is dictated by the room dimensions and by the other speakers, I would probably lean toward a narrower mic. pattern for Audyssey. I might go out 12"-18" from the center point of the center seat, but I probably wouldn't go out much further. IMO, if you did toe the fronts in more, the mic. pattern would probably need to tighten up a little, as well, for optimum SQ, but I could be wrong. Most of this has to be determined through trial and error.

With the fairly small space, hard surfaces, and angled ceiling on both sides, I would expect there to be a lot of high frequency energy (distortion) in the room. Somewhere down the road, you might want to consider some acoustical panels to help with that. Most rooms can benefit from bass traps, even in addition to Audyssey. But in some cases, high frequency distortion can present even worse problems, and that is where Audyssey is generally least effective. So, if you don't mind the suggestion, you might want to investigate some room treatments. A separate thread on that can often get you some free advice from industry professionals. I hope this suggestion is helpful.

Regards,
Mike
+1 to Mike, all are very sound advice.
@tbaucom : It would be nice to see how Audyssey set level trims and distances, including Small/Large configuration determined by the AVR. BTW, what AVR do you have?
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post #77072 of 79637 Old 09-09-2015, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
+1 to Mike, all are very sound advice.
@tbaucom : It would be nice to see how Audyssey set level trims and distances, including Small/Large configuration determined by the AVR. BTW, what AVR do you have?
I have a marantz 7009. I don't know the exact trim levels and distances.

Audyssey set main speakers as large. It sets all other speakers to small. It has consistently set an 80hz crossover on center, surrounds, and surround backs. The top front has varied between 80 and 90. The top rear has consistently been 110 hz.

Before I moved things, audyssey always set both pair of overhead speakers at 90hz. I wish I could find someway to get the top rears set lower. 110 is too high in my opinion. I currently have both pairs set to 90. I realize I probably have a slight dip in frequency response in the top rears but I haven't noticed anything.

Maybe it is my imagination, but leaving top rear at 110 seems to make them too loud and they somewhat overpower the surround speakers. That is the main thing I notice with using individual crossovers. the speakers with the higher crossovers always seem louder to me. I wish i could set everything to the same crossover.

I have been experimenting with using a global 90hz crossover for movies and it seems ok. I had issues before with noticing my rear subwoofer when I had them both in corners. I haven't noticed the issue since being able to move them to 1/4 walls.

I have played around with it and honestly I think a global 80hz crossover sounds best even though I have dips in the frequency response of the overhead speakers according to audyssey. If I can get the top fronts to come in at an 80hz crossover when i have everything placed, I will likely just use a global 80 hz crossover and live with the dip in the top rear speakers. All of my speakers are sealed other that the mains so hopefully they are not rolling off that fast. The omd-5s rated +or- 3db point is 60hz by the manufacturer.
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post #77073 of 79637 Old 09-09-2015, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
I have a marantz 7009. I don't know the exact trim levels and distances.

Audyssey set main speakers as large. It sets all other speakers to small. It has consistently set an 80hz crossover on center, surrounds, and surround backs. The top front has varied between 80 and 90. The top rear has consistently been 110 hz.

Before I moved things, audyssey always set both pair of overhead speakers at 90hz. I wish I could find someway to get the top rears set lower. 110 is too high in my opinion. I currently have both pairs set to 90. I realize I probably have a slight dip in frequency response in the top rears but I haven't noticed anything.

Maybe it is my imagination, but leaving top rear at 110 seems to make them too loud and they somewhat overpower the surround speakers. That is the main thing I notice with using individual crossovers. the speakers with the higher crossovers always seem louder to me. I wish i could set everything to the same crossover.

I have been experimenting with using a global 90hz crossover for movies and it seems ok. I had issues before with noticing my rear subwoofer when I had them both in corners. I haven't noticed the issue since being able to move them to 1/4 walls.

I have played around with it and honestly I think a global 80hz crossover sounds best even though I have dips in the frequency response of the overhead speakers according to audyssey. If I can get the top fronts to come in at an 80hz crossover when i have everything placed, I will likely just use a global 80 hz crossover and live with the dip in the top rear speakers. All of my speakers are sealed other that the mains so hopefully they are not rolling off that fast. The omd-5s rated +or- 3db point is 60hz by the manufacturer.

The current location of your subs sounds good to me, both from a smoothing standpoint and with respect to localization. If your top rear speakers sound a little loud at the recommended crossover of 110, you could also consider going into your manual levels and adjusting them downward slightly. Either method would probably get you where you want to be sonically, but even the rebel in me tends to balk at going below recommended (ie detected F3) crossovers. On the other hand, like you I would probably do whatever sounded best to me. And if a global crossover of 80Hz were it, so be it.
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post #77074 of 79637 Old 09-09-2015, 10:37 AM
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I have a marantz 7009. I don't know the exact trim levels and distances.
If you don't know the trim levels and distances worry not, Marantz knows it. You only have to look 'em up in the menu.
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post #77075 of 79637 Old 09-09-2015, 11:09 AM
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If you don't know the trim levels and distances worry not, Marantz knows it. You only have to look 'em up in the menu.

I meant didn't have them memorized.



I am at home on my lunch break and have looked them up. I have the luxury of only living a couple of miles from work so I come home to let my dogs out.


Distances:
front L 11.2
front R 10.9
center 9.9
sub 1 11.3
sub 2 12.6
surround L 8.5
surround R 7.6
surround back L 8.1
surround back R 7.5
top front L 9.1
top front r 9.0
top rear L 6.0
top rear R 5.7


levels:
front L 0.0
front R -.5
center -3
sub 1 -8.5
sub 2 -8
surround L -4
surround R -6
surround back L -1.5
surround back R -1
top front L -2
top front r -2
top rear L -2.5
top rear R -5




My setup consists of mirage omd-28 mains, omd-c2 center, omd-r surrounds and surround backs, and omd-5 top front/rear. I am using an emotive xpa5 to power front, center, and surrounds. The Marantz powers surround backs and the 4 over heads. I have 2 psa xv30 subs.
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post #77076 of 79637 Old 09-09-2015, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
I meant didn't have them memorized.



I am at home on my lunch break and have looked them up. I have the luxury of only living a couple of miles from work so I come home to let my dogs out.


Distances:
front L 11.2
front R 10.9
center 9.9
sub 1 11.3
sub 2 12.6
surround L 8.5
surround R 7.6
surround back L 8.1
surround back R 7.5
top front L 9.1
top front r 9.0
top rear L 6.0
top rear R 5.7


levels:
front L 0.0
front R -.5
center -3
sub 1 -8.5
sub 2 -8
surround L -4
surround R -6
surround back L -1.5
surround back R -1
top front L -2
top front r -2
top rear L -2.5
top rear R -5




My setup consists of mirage omd-28 mains, omd-c2 center, omd-r surrounds and surround backs, and omd-5 top front/rear. I am using an emotive xpa5 to power front, center, and surrounds. The Marantz powers surround backs and the 4 over heads. I have 2 psa xv30 subs.
Pretty good and pretty consistent data. Also you have a fine selection of speakers and subs, so all is left is to ENJOY!
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post #77077 of 79637 Old 09-09-2015, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
If you don't know the trim levels and distances worry not, Marantz knows it. You only have to look 'em up in the menu.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I think the answer to that depends on what you are trying to accomplish. The center seat, if it is the MLP, is always going to have superior imaging, because distances (sound arrival times) and volume levels of the various speakers, are intended to converge there. That is why the selection of mic. position #1 is so important. If you want to try to EQ a larger area to give slightly more room correction equivalency to all three seats, then a larger mic. pattern would be the better way to go. If you really are trying to optimize sound for the center seat, though, the tighter mic. pattern (how tight is up to you) will help you to do that. FWIW, in recent years, Chris K. has endorsed using tighter mic. patterns than the 2' standard, as a way to optimize sound quality at the MLP. So, you just have to decide what your primary goal is. I use a fairly tight pattern, although a little larger than yours, with great results. I do a box about 22" by 22", going out to each side about 11" and forward about 22". But I think it's really trial and error to decide what works best for your particular goals and circumstances.
Do you take any measurements further back of MLP?
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post #77078 of 79637 Old 09-09-2015, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
Do you take any measurements further back of MLP?

I don't in my situation, and I might not in your room either, although you are far enough away from a wall that it probably wouldn't hurt anything. I could see taking some measurements slightly behind the MLP, if you are reclining your seats fairly frequently. And I could definitely see going behind the MLP if I were concerned about a second row behind the primary listening area. But that doesn't seem to apply to either of us. So, a lot depends on the room and how you are using it. I might start with a more or less standard calibration, using a box about 12" to 18" wide on each side and maybe a couple of feet forward, and then save two mic. positions to go 2"-3" higher and just behind your head. That should give you a pretty good baseline calibration, and then you could experiment more from there if you felt like it.

I just looked at your photos again. If your chair back is much higher than your ear level, then I might recline the chair just slightly during the measurements, but I would still use a blanket--preferably a thick, fuzzy one.
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How come it's never good to have a couch right by the wall? Is it because it causes reflections?

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post #77080 of 79637 Old 09-09-2015, 01:12 PM
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How come it's never good to have a couch right by the wall? Is it because it causes reflections?

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Yes, you get reflections bouncing into your ears from close range, which tends to garble mid and high frequency sound. And then if you try using room correction, you get those same short range reflections bouncing into the microphone, which causes Audyssey, or whatever you are using, to try to over-correct some of those frequencies. And that can compound the problem. Sometimes there is no choice in room arrangements, but staying a couple of feet off the back wall of a room is preferable, if possible.
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On topic, a question about reflections.

I have cloth seats. They are recliners with a high back and I'm pretty short. I sit about 12 feet from my front wall and 8 feet from the back wall. When my head is against the seat, the sound I hear is quite different compared to if I'm sitting up. I feel like I hear a lot more reflections when my head is brought forward. So the seat back is definitely blocking reflections coming from behind me.

My question is which one is more "what it's supposed to sound like"? I would think the blocked reflections would be what you'd want, but then again most of the seats I've seen in dedicated listening rooms have the listener's head above a (not high back) seat.
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post #77082 of 79637 Old 09-09-2015, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Yes, you get reflections bouncing into your ears from close range, which tends to garble mid and high frequency sound. And then if you try using room correction, you get those same short range reflections bouncing into the microphone, which causes Audyssey, or whatever you are using, to try to over-correct some of those frequencies. And that can compound the problem. Sometimes there is no choice in room arrangements, but staying a couple of feet off the back wall of a room is preferable, if possible.
Also, bass builds up along boundaries (walls).
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post #77083 of 79637 Old 09-09-2015, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
On topic, a question about reflections.

I have cloth seats. They are recliners with a high back and I'm pretty short. I sit about 12 feet from my front wall and 8 feet from the back wall. When my head is against the seat, the sound I hear is quite different compared to if I'm sitting up. I feel like I hear a lot more reflections when my head is brought forward. So the seat back is definitely blocking reflections coming from behind me.

My question is which one is more "what it's supposed to sound like"? I would think the blocked reflections would be what you'd want, but then again most of the seats I've seen in dedicated listening rooms have the listener's head above a (not high back) seat.

Hi,


That's a good question and one I am not sure that I am qualified to answer. There is a fair bit of controversy about whether we should use room treatments to eliminate as many 1st and 2nd reflections as possible, or whether the reflections naturally and appropriately augment the sound. My own point of view, FWIW, is that it depends.

I could buy into trying to eliminate reflections for home theater faster than I could for music listening. I think the trick is to decide which reflections are disruptive and which are helpful. And that is very much a user preference kind of thing. There are certainly other schools of thought, though.

With that background, getting back to your question of "what's it supposed to sound like?" doesn't have a definitive answer for me. I would substitute the question: "Which sounds better to you?" Once you answer that, then I think you could take measures with room treatments, and/or with your calibration, to enhance the sound you prefer, and ameliorate the one you don't. So, which does sound better to you--leaning forward, or sitting back in your chair? Reflections can add ambiance, and create a sense of a larger soundstage, but they can also present destructive interference. Try to decide which sounds better to you, and why, if you can. Then if you want to, you can post some pictures, and several of us can try to help you get closer to what you prefer. I hope all of that makes sense.

Regards,
Mike

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post

...
With the fairly small space, hard surfaces, and angled ceiling on both sides, I would expect there to be a lot of high frequency energy (distortion) in the room. Somewhere down the road, you might want to consider some acoustical panels to help with that. Most rooms can benefit from bass traps, even in addition to Audyssey. But in some cases, high frequency distortion can present even worse problems, and that is where Audyssey is generally least effective. So, if you don't mind the suggestion, you might want to investigate some room treatments. A separate thread on that can often get you some free advice from industry professionals. I hope this suggestion is helpful.

Regards,
Mike
I agree with Mike. I have heard that with sloped ceilings in which the two sides both are sloped to face each other and focus rather than diffuse (i.e., more or less concave, or triangular, rather than convex), carefully placed absorption is highly recommended. I saw a picture of a ceiling almost identical to yours, in which absorbing pads were placed on both sloped surfaces, spaced a bit apart, with a few more widely spaced ones down the high, flat center of the ceiling. Don't over absorb, though. It's a judgement call.

If you need to put back some of the liveness of the room after putting in all that absorption, could you put some diffusors on the back wall, behind you? Or even the wall in front of you, as well. That might make the room sound a bit larger, while the absorbing pads would cut down on any treble distortion.

Make one kind of change at a time, then give yourself a couple of weeks to listen.

Of course, every time you make any changes, you should re-run Audyssey. Your AVR or Pre/Pro should provide a way to store the old EQ, so you could go back, if necessary.
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I feel that when leaning forward, it sounds more open, but it isn't necessarily better. When leaning back (my normal position), it sounds much more controlled, almost like you're wearing headphones. I feel like I want something in between.
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post #77086 of 79637 Old 09-09-2015, 03:44 PM
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I feel that when leaning forward, it sounds more open, but it isn't necessarily better. When leaning back (my normal position), it sounds much more controlled, almost like you're wearing headphones. I feel like I want something in between.

Honestly, that answer is sort of what I was expecting, and probably where I would be too. Maybe a larger soundstage versus greater clarity. As I recall, you have three speakers up front and no surrounds. Is that correct? Again, if you want to post some pictures, and your current calibration pattern, it will help. My first thought is to try calibrating a little further forward, and with at least two mic. positions about 3" above ear level, to see if Audyssey can help get you to a little better compromise. After that I don't know without pictures. (I know I sound just like Feri, but he's right. To troubleshoot a room problem, pictures really help.)

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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
I agree with Mike. I have heard that with sloped ceilings in which the two sides both are sloped to face each other and focus rather than diffuse (i.e., more or less concave, or triangular, rather than convex), carefully placed absorption is highly recommended. I saw a picture of a ceiling almost identical to yours, in which absorbing pads were placed on both sloped surfaces, spaced a bit apart, with a few more widely spaced ones down the high, flat center of the ceiling. Don't over absorb, though. It's a judgement call.

If you need to put back some of the liveness of the room after putting in all that absorption, could you put some diffusors on the back wall, behind you? Or even the wall in front of you, as well. That might make the room sound a bit larger, while the absorbing pads would cut down on any treble distortion.

Make one kind of change at a time, then give yourself a couple of weeks to listen.

Of course, every time you make any changes, you should re-run Audyssey. Your AVR or Pre/Pro should provide a way to store the old EQ, so you could go back, if necessary.
Hi Gary,

I have heard some rooms with angled ceilings flanking each other and they can be very echoey in the center of the room, which in this case is where the MLP is located. All that high frequency energy just bounces back and forth. I was also thinking of some absorptive material on those angled planes, but I would go slowly to avoid over-treating the space. Add some, re-run Audyssey, listen for a while, and then add some more, if necessary. I think it's kind of like cooking--add seasoning gradually and carefully to taste. Not that I can cook for beans. I just like the analogy.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Honestly, that answer is sort of what I was expecting, and probably where I would be too. Maybe a larger soundstage versus greater clarity. As I recall, you have three speakers up front and no surrounds. Is that correct? Again, if you want to post some pictures, and your current calibration pattern, it will help. My first thought is to try calibrating a little further forward, and with at least two mic. positions about 3" above ear level, to see if Audyssey can help get you to a little better compromise. After that I don't know without pictures. (I know I sound just like Feri, but he's right. To troubleshoot a room problem, pictures really help.)
I have a 2.2 system. I won't be able to add surrounds until my next place, and there is no room for a center with a 64" plasma, especially considering the size of my speakers.

Honestly, I don't know if there is much Audyssey can do about this. I'll have to reevaluate this after I get some panels made for the walls.

I use all measurement positions with my X4000, starting with where my head is, then about 6" to each side, then forward a foot across my legs, then a couple on top of the seat back.

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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
I have a 2.2 system. I won't be able to add surrounds until my next place, and there is no room for a center with a 64" plasma, especially considering the size of my speakers.

Honestly, I don't know if there is much Audyssey can do about this. I'll have to reevaluate this after I get some panels made for the walls.

I use all measurement positions with my X4000, starting with where my head is, then about 6" to each side, then forward a foot across my legs, then a couple on top of the seat back.

Well, at least I remembered that your speakers were in front, without surrounds. As I recall, I had a somewhat similar problem at one point where leaning forward my sound seemed to change a little. In my case, I remember adjusting my speaker toe in just a little. Mine work best crossing a little in front of my listening position, and Audyssey actually helped me suss that out where I might not have noticed it otherwise. I also made sure that I came a little further forward, out to about 24" from my chair back, with a couple of my mic. positions to give Audyssey a little more information about the area in front of my chair. I really didn't like hearing the sound change when I leaned forward. No problems with that at all for the last couple of years.

I suspect that you are right about needing some acoustic treatment, but you might still want to try a couple of tweaks meanwhile. As you know, a lot of this stuff is just trial and error to find out what helps and what doesn't.

Regards,
Mike

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post #77090 of 79637 Old 09-09-2015, 06:41 PM
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Who here loves DEQ?

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post #77091 of 79637 Old 09-09-2015, 11:32 PM
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Who here loves DEQ?
Not me! But I usually play within 5 or so dB of Reference, so DEQ would have a minimal effect, since it is partly dependent on the position of the Main Volume control. But, even with that minimal effect, the music is noticeably less clear and articulate with DEQ in my room. If I need a little bass boost, I use the bass tone control (not the virtual graphic sliders, since they can't be used with Audyssey operating). Sometimes I use Audyssey Flat, sometimes Audyssey Reference.
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post #77092 of 79637 Old 09-09-2015, 11:47 PM
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Who here loves DEQ?

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Me. There was a good discussion on it in here, a month or so ago.
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post #77093 of 79637 Old 09-10-2015, 05:53 AM
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Who here loves DEQ?

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It seems to be pretty much a love it or hate it feature. Like Gary, I don't use it for music, because the bass boost (5db or more at MV -15, and even more at lower volumes) sounds unnatural to me. Others disagree.

Where I really do like it though, is for the purpose it was designed to accomplish: to maintain spectral balance with respect to Reference volumes in home theater applications. I very much enjoy the bass boost for movies, and particularly for action films, or similar 5.1 TV shows. In part, I guess, that's because unlike with most music, I have no particular expectation for how things are "supposed" to sound in a movie. I usually listen at about -15, and I go back and forth between an RLO setting of 0 and -5. I think really visceral bass is great for movies, so I run my subs 6 or 7db hot and use DEQ. Good times!

I have a theory, which may or may not be correct, that the more a listener plays music with acoustic instruments (classical and jazz, for instance), the easier it is to hear the bass boost with DEQ. And the more that one listens to electronic or synthesized instruments, the less noticeable, or unnatural, the bass boost might seem, because again there would be less clear expectation for just how the instruments "should" sound. I base that theory, in part, on comments from users I have observed over the years. But even if there is a grain of truth to the theory, it wouldn't be any kind of universal thing, so there would be exceptions in both directions with respect to why people do, or do not, prefer DEQ for music applications.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #77094 of 79637 Old 09-10-2015, 10:50 AM
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Who here loves DEQ?

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Me, too!

For film it's effortless, just toss in a Blu-Ray Disc and adjust MV to your liking. DEQ will take care of the rest in the tonal balance department whenever you feel 0 dB ref. level is not convenient for your listening pleasure ( read: too loud).

For music DEQ needs some effort from the enduser. The secret lies in ReplayGain! I've posted my method a couple of Moons ago.
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post #77095 of 79637 Old 09-10-2015, 01:56 PM
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For music DEQ needs some effort from the enduser. The secret lies in ReplayGain! I've posted my method a couple of Moons ago.
If only there were a way to accomplish this for those of us who play our music from network storage with a device like a phone (Chromecast plugged into AVR), without normalizing our whole library.

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post #77096 of 79637 Old 09-10-2015, 02:08 PM
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If only there were a way to accomplish this for those of us who play our music from network storage with a device like a phone, without normalizing our whole library.
Did I mention "effort"?

I tried and gave up on Spotify coz I felt like being in the dark, it was like driving a car blindfolded!

The more sophisticated audio gear we have the more problems we experience when it comes to listining to high-quality audio material. Phone audio with ear buds the size of a Bayer aspirin are for those youth who need to get older to appreciate what we are talking here. Time is on their side.

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post #77097 of 79637 Old 09-10-2015, 02:24 PM
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I'm playing music through my XT32 AVR with a Chromecast. The phone is merely the controller, not the source or the processor. The idea is simplicity - not needing a computer running.
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post #77098 of 79637 Old 09-10-2015, 02:36 PM
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I'm playing music through my XT32 AVR with a Chromecast. The phone is merely the controller, not the source or the processor. The idea is simplicity - not needing a computer running.
I hear you Soulburner, yet we still do not know anything about "normalization" of audio streams provided by media like Chromecast, do we? Simplicity remains simplicity till the audio industry cathes up with film industry's standardization. Won't hold my breath for that!
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post #77099 of 79637 Old 09-10-2015, 03:11 PM
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I hear you Soulburner, yet we still do not know anything about "normalization" of audio streams provided by media like Chromecast, do we? Simplicity remains simplicity till the audio industry cathes up with film industry's standardization. Won't hold my breath for that!
Hi Feri,

FWIW, I think Spotify has done a lot recently to "normalize" volumes. I still encounter the occasional song that I need to turn down by a decibel, or a decibel and a half, but that doesn't happen with nearly as much frequency as it used to, and I always keep my remote handy anyway. For those who are looking for other viable options, this one has improved.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #77100 of 79637 Old 09-10-2015, 03:42 PM
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Hi Feri,

FWIW, I think Spotify has done a lot recently to "normalize" volumes. I still encounter the occasional song that I need to turn down by a decibel, or a decibel and a half, but that doesn't happen with nearly as much frequency as it used to, and I always keep my remote handy anyway. For those who are looking for other viable options, this one has improved.

Regards,
Mike
Mike, is there any way to verify what Spotify has done in the name of "normalization" of playback volumes? Curious, indeed!
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