The 10 Biggest Lies In Audio - Page 17 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #481 of 624 Old 03-13-2009, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Herc View Post

Likely the suffocation of harmonics.

As in...harmonics above ~17-18 kHz?

I doubt it would have the reported audible effect.

Harmonics much below that wouldn't be 'suffocated'. High-quality mp3 isn't telephone sound.
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post #482 of 624 Old 03-13-2009, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herc View Post

I'll bet the phone company was experimenting with filtering and bandwidth limiting functions before they "got it right".


Nope.

200-3200Hz for phone bandwidth has been with us since the 1950's. Unless you were with a very wierd phone company.

As to MP3, if you're "suffocating harmonics" I'm curious to know what you mean. At a high rate, you have no bandwidth limiting to speak of beyond the original PCM antialiasing filter, and that's regardless of your use of MP3.

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post #483 of 624 Old 03-14-2009, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post

Seriously, Ethan, I've seen a whole lot worse.

Of course, but when a professional reviewer claims to be able to hear "break-in" as Chu mentioned, you'd expect an excellent room.

--Ethan
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post #484 of 624 Old 03-14-2009, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

When I hear sounds that are linked to an instrument playing but cannot have been made by that instrument, it's a dead give-away that I'm hearing compression artifacts. Higher bitrates tend to make those artifacts less obvious and higher up the frequency range; at 256k, I hear it as "edge" on things like pick noise (acoustic guitar), extra sibillance on vocals, or a "crisper" percussion sound on instruments with a sharp attacks (cymbals, bells, snare, etc.).

By suffocation of harmonics I meant the identifying harmonics which make a "C" on a trumpet vs a "C" on a piano.
After reading the portion above I imagine a very quiet subharmony playing out underneath the orchestra. The fundamental and a couple of harmonics of that subharmony are reproduced but the remainder gets stripped when converting to MP3.
In the same way that 1980's MIDI never replicates the real thing very well. Especially the piano. Enough harmonic content (or perhaps transients) which make the unique sound isn't generated. Kind of backwards with the MP3, that existing harmonic content is stripped away because of it's relative volume to the rest of the orchestral piece.

As for the telephone company are you sue they still employ that audio bandwidth in the strictest sense? Their focus is voice and only voice. Everything else is noise and requires no bandwidth. Like when you're talking to someone in a car with the radio on. The radio is completely unintelligible if it has no vocal content.
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post #485 of 624 Old 03-14-2009, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herc View Post

By suffocation of harmonics I meant the identifying harmonics which make a "C" on a trumpet vs a "C" on a piano.

Not at all an issue with a decent mp3
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post #486 of 624 Old 03-14-2009, 04:40 PM
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"real" listening, it's either a CD or Vinyl.

Wowee! speaking of compression and distortion....geeze
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post #487 of 624 Old 03-14-2009, 07:28 PM
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Wowee! Take CD and vinyl and rip to MP3 and add compression and distortion as well remove info... geeze

Room treatments will make it better... sheesh.

St. Patricks's Day... MP3 O'Philes!



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #488 of 624 Old 03-14-2009, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herc View Post

In the same way that 1980's MIDI never replicates the real thing very well.

MIDI and MP3 are completely incomparable. MIDI uses whatever synthesizer you have to render the extremely-low-bitrate sound you send to it.

MP3 takes what you did, be it from MIDI or Bosendorfer, and figures out what parts are audible and what parts aren't, and works on from there.
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As for the telephone company are you sue they still employ that audio bandwidth in the strictest sense?

For everything except cell phones, it's now 200-3600 in a lot of applications, but that is not a significant change.

Low bit rate cell phones may be more bandwidth limited, depending on what you're using, where, and what you're listening to.
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Their focus is voice and only voice. Everything else is noise and requires no bandwidth. Like when you're talking to someone in a car with the radio on. The radio is completely unintelligible if it has no vocal content.

Um, you're confuting so many different issues I hardly know where to start. Yes, I know what Telcos care about, I worked for one for 26 years, after all, even if I did work in a completely different area, that of full-bandwidth audio. Telcos care about very few things at this point: Cheap service cost, low bandwidth, and sales. Service used to be an issue, but is no longer.
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post #489 of 624 Old 03-14-2009, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Wowee! Take CD and vinyl and rip to MP3 and add compression and distortion as well remove info... geeze

Room treatments will make it better... sheesh.

St. Patricks's Day... MP3 O'Philes!


You know, direct, obscenely insulting comments like this lead me to conclude that you are really hear to insult, make fun of people, and show how much contempt you can muster.

Since that's the point, I will stop trying to educate you on the issues.

First, MP3 adds no level compression, and no distortion. It adds only noise. So where do we go from there? You have no idea what you're on about. MP3 is a perceptual CODING algorithm that compresses the bit rate.

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post #490 of 624 Old 03-14-2009, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Wowee! Take CD and vinyl and rip to MP3 and add compression and distortion as well remove info... geeze

Room treatments will make it better... sheesh.

St. Patricks's Day... MP3 O'Philes!

Please don't drink and post.
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post #491 of 624 Old 03-14-2009, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post

You know, direct, obscenely insulting comments like this lead me to conclude that you are really hear to insult, make fun of people, and show how much contempt you can muster..

Excuse me... I tried to bow out of this thread a while ago. I understand and respect your expertise in regard to the development of the technology. Your defense is similar to someone making fun of your children and I appreciate your stance. I intended no "insult" to you whatsoever.

But IMO you don't need to lower yourself to the level of others and crap on me for my opinion... even if I'm wrong.

I added a response ONLY because a moderator decided to bust my balls.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #492 of 624 Old 08-05-2019, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by MadJazz View Post
I know a lot of you are probably familiar with The Audio Critic's article "The 10 Biggest Lies In Audio". It's been referred to on this forum before. It's a good one! The article can be found here:


The link to one of the most important articles on audio ever written no longer works, so here is a new, working link:

The 10 Biggest Lies in Audio reprinted in Ecoustics, by audio expert and longtime editor of the magazine The Audio Critic, Peter Aczel.

[The entire magazine issue this article comes from is here. I would suggest downloading a copy since it may not be around forever.]

I was a high end audio dealer at the time and read this blockbuster article right when it was published. Great stuff and convenient to have so many of the audio industry's dirty secrets (they don't want people to know) exposed in black and white by an expert. These very 10 lies are often promoted and bolstered by the competing magazines, both at the time and still to this very day. Don't fall for the lies, my friends (and there are more than just 10, by the way, but these are indeed some of the biggest).

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post #493 of 624 Old 08-06-2019, 06:58 AM
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All that time wasted coloring my CD edges green. I could have done something more useful with my time, like buy some Mpingo pucks!
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post #494 of 624 Old 08-10-2019, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
The link to one of the most important articles on audio ever written no longer works, so here is a new, working link:

The 10 Biggest Lies in Audio reprinted in Ecoustics, by audio expert and longtime editor of the magazine The Audio Critic, Peter Aczel.
Bloody great reading. Thanks for tracking that down and posting.
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post #495 of 624 Old 08-11-2019, 11:11 AM
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The Audio Critic

There are so many members on this forum who need to read this magazine especially that particular issue.

That magazine could have saved me a lot of grief 20 years ago when I purchased expensive audio separates thinking I was buying better sound. What a disappointment that turned out to be.

If you're reading this and you are about to purchase separate audiophile components that are going to cost you a fortune, don't!

Save your money. You're not going to get better sound buying those expensive audiophile boutique brands.
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post #496 of 624 Old 08-11-2019, 12:44 PM
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post #497 of 624 Old 08-11-2019, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Out-Of-Phase View Post
The Audio Critic

There are so many members on this forum who need to read this magazine especially that particular issue.

That magazine could have saved me a lot of grief 20 years when I purchased expensive audio separates thinking I was buying better sound. What a disappointment that turned out to be.

If you're reading this and you are about to purchase separate audiophile components that are going to cost you a fortune, don't!

Save your money. You're not going to get better sound buying those expensive audiophile boutique brands.
Thank your lucky stars that your era of gullibility is over. Imagine how much you would be still spending upgrading all the time.
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post #498 of 624 Old 08-11-2019, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
Thank your lucky stars that your era of gullibility is over. Imagine how much you would be still spending upgrading all the time.
Yeah, no kidding. Audiophilia is a perfectionistic, addictive behavior that can only be stopped through science education and possibly a 12-step group for some people.

"Hello, I'm Tom and I'm a recovering audiophile".

"Hi, Tom!"

"I spent over $100,000.00 on stereo components and I couldn't stop". "The sound was never, ever good enough to me".

That may sound silly, but it's not. It's very, very real and the audiophile industry knows it.
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post #499 of 624 Old 08-16-2019, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Out-Of-Phase View Post
The Audio Critic

There are so many members on this forum who need to read this magazine especially that particular issue.

That magazine could have saved me a lot of grief 20 years ago when I purchased expensive audio separates thinking I was buying better sound. What a disappointment that turned out to be.

If you're reading this and you are about to purchase separate audiophile components that are going to cost you a fortune, don't!

Save your money. You're not going to get better sound buying those expensive audiophile boutique brands.
I have a friend that I just watched go down that rabbit hole. I felt helpless, but that's what he wanted to do. He's new to all this, and I tried to tell him, but his excitement got the best of him.

And I'm not one on the cheaper side myself. I intentionally bought an Anthem MCA 525 (225 wpc x 5 ) to go with an older B&K reference amp (125 wpc x 7). I like having those separates so that I can upgrade preamps over time as codecs and whatnot change without ever having to worry about amps ever again. I do like relatively expensive preamps, so the separate amps save me a little money by not having to buy the AVR version each time I upgrade.

But he got sucked into a Trinnov with a stack of high-end McIntosh amps. I guess the positive here is that he didn't "build up" into that massive expense with a lot of smaller purchases before it. That's the way it usually happens, but he just jumped right in. And he rolled the cost into his mortgage on a new house, so I guess he'll never "see" that payment if he just pays the mortgage.

What's kind of funny about it is that he listens at about 70 dB. LOL, what is the point? I listen louder than that, and I still have vastly more headroom than I'll ever need. Plus, I have a more ideal room shape that is also better treated, so my theater simply sounds better than his.
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post #500 of 624 Old 08-16-2019, 11:53 AM
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Here is a current thread that appears legit of a poor soul that seems to have spent $50k in gear only to want to downsize a year later.

He'll be lucky to get, what, 35 cents on the dollar?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...ease-help.html

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The biggest lie of all is that listening to music is supposed to be fun. It actually sucks.
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post #502 of 624 Old 08-17-2019, 07:47 AM
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^^^ That's what audiophiles say. No matter how much time and money they spend, it is never, ever complete. They never achieve the right sound. They're always looking for the next component, the next tweak, the next purchase that will take them to a higher level of musical nirvana. But of course, they never get there.

With audiophiles, it's not about the music, it's all about their 'gear' and the endless obsession.
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post #503 of 624 Old 08-17-2019, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Out-Of-Phase View Post
^^^ That's what audiophiles say. No matter how much time and money they spend, it is never, ever complete. They never achieve the right sound. They're always looking for the next component, the next tweak, the next purchase that will take them to a higher level of musical nirvana. But of course, they never get there.

With audiophiles, it's not about the music, it's all about their 'gear' and the endless obsession.
It's "audiophiliac". They spend and want others to bleed out hard earned dollars and suffer along with them seeking acceptance.
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If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #504 of 624 Old 08-17-2019, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Out-Of-Phase View Post
With audiophiles, it's not about the music, it's all about their 'gear' and the endless obsession.
Hey, wait a minute. I resemble that remark.

The difference is I'm concerned with performance, not the brand nor price, but if I think I'm hearing a difference I verify it by blind testing rather than just accepting it as gospel, because I realize all humans, including myself, are gullible and suffer from expectation bias.
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Audiophiles are the Illuminati.
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Hi new here don’t know where this question would go
Start a new thread because what you are asking has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Thanks. [BTW, I suspect you need this sort of cable: https://www.amazon.com/TNP-3-5mm-Mon.../dp/B01MA18DPL ]
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post #507 of 624 Old 08-17-2019, 12:20 PM
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Audiophiles are the Illuminati.
"There is substantial controversy on the subject of audiophile components. Many have asserted that the occasionally high cost produces no measurable improvement in audio reproduction."
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post #508 of 624 Old 08-17-2019, 12:26 PM
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Yeah, no kidding. Audiophilia is a perfectionistic, addictive behavior that can only be stopped through science education and possibly a 12-step group for some people.
Education? But they often flat out reject any evidence contrary to their thought bubble [confirmation bias, etc.] and steadfastly refuse to undergo blind tests because the snake oil peddlers who con them with these 10 lies teach them such testing is the devil's work, so how exactly does science break through to them?

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post #509 of 624 Old 08-17-2019, 12:49 PM
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Good point. Dopamine is a hard habit to break.

Science finally broke through to me though, so there's hope.
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Education? But they often flat out reject any evidence contrary to their thought bubble [confirmation bias, etc.] and steadfastly refuse to undergo blind tests because the snake oil peddlers who con them with these 10 lies teach them such testing is the devil's work, so how exactly does science break through to them?
I know that people like ex neo-nazis often do motivational speaking tours. Maybe that would work but with ex Hifi snake oil salesman instead.
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