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post #151 of 243 Old 11-19-2010, 05:38 PM
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Apparently he is and has a some stuff published. Do a search under his full name and notice that he's got some book published by Wiley: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...306.x/abstract

Perhaps I can ask someone if they can get a copy.

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post #152 of 243 Old 11-19-2010, 06:01 PM
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I read the article published in Affordable Audio. It's hard to know where to begin critiquing the dubious "science", assumptions, and methodology. Nowhere does he state the hypothesis: cooking cables will produce an audibile difference. He offers nothing that I could find in the way of properly structured comparison tests. He's a professor, for cryin' out loud! His students should ask for a refund.

This statement by the author was revealing:

"Afterthought: Input And Output Waveforms

I know my fellow meter pontiffs will be bitterly disappointed by this, but it did not occur to me to look at the pre-cooked and post-cooked cable waveforms until I started cooking the speaker cables. By that time, the interconnect and power cables had been cooked."

The entire concept is overcooked. Maybe its a crock(pot)?
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post #153 of 243 Old 11-19-2010, 06:12 PM
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I heard a shout in the distance from Charles, geek, and gizmo......"to the cable car" and off they went.
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post #154 of 243 Old 11-19-2010, 09:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

I heard a shout in the distance from Charles, geek, and gizmo......"to the cable car" and off they went.

What would you say your contribution is on this thread?
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post #155 of 243 Old 11-19-2010, 10:16 PM
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Hughman tell me: If I "cook" the CAT5/6 cables in my house, will I suddenly multiply the bandwidth capability 100 fold? Will the YouTube videos suddenly achieve 3 D appearance with more intense color and will the audio now sound like 7.1 from my 2 desk top speakers?

If I had "cooked" the romex in the electrical system in my house would I get a higher voltage, "cleaner" power, no drops from regional grid load?

The claims made for power, speaker and interconnect cabling are on a par with those.

Show me any testing by the National Bureau of Standards (current name?) or JPL, Hughes, Ratheon, Livermore Labs, etc that can back up those cable claims.
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post #156 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 04:09 AM
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Seems these threads end up in endless debates involving all sorts of complex arguments about stuff that does not seem relevant to me, no offense.

IMO, for me to believe cables could make a difference, someone would have to explain scientifically, why they would make a difference.

I believe a number of articles have broken down the electrical properties of cables. I admit to not believing there's some hidden properties we have not yet discovered (yes, it's always possible there are unknown properties, but seems unlikely.)

We have basic resistance. Seeing how I believe this affects all frequencies equally, seems irrelevant to the discussion.

I suppose a sufficiently high impedance could create some sort of interaction with the output circuitry which could result in non linearity. I was led to believe though, that the low impedance output of a line out matched to the high impedance input at the input would mean such interactions would be minimized.

We have inductance. If cables behaved in a strongly inductive way that would definitely affect the frequency response. Do cables have sufficiently high inductance for this to matter? I have seen no evidence of this.

Finally, if cables have sufficiently high capacitance, that could effect the sound. But even if you pick up a non defective cable of the freebie type that often get or used to get with a CD player or whatever, will it have significant capacitance? Anecdotal evidence says no. Of course we can't fully trust anecdotal evidence. But I am willing to be convinced of the problems of cable impedance IF someone demonstrates that multiple samples from the same manufacturer of a cheap RCA cable show capacitance sufficient to affect frequency response audibly (say with 6ft cables or shorter.)

In summary, I see no evidence that any measurements we can make on cheapo cables will demonstrate any potential issues. And yes, I think the burden of proof is on the side of people who say cables make a significant difference (and I am talking about short line level audio cables here.)

And if someone tells me I should listen rather than measure, all I can say is that I think hearing is not reliable. The large number of people coming into audio forums talking about night and day differences proves this. Why? Because numerous blind tests have shown that night and day differences don't exist in many areas where people claim they do. For example, amps. Blind listening tests show that amp differences are almost always subtle - yet people claim these huge differences.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #157 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

Hughman tell me: If I "cook" the CAT5/6 cables in my house, will I suddenly multiply the bandwidth capability 100 fold? Will the YouTube videos suddenly achieve 3 D appearance with more intense color and will the audio now sound like 7.1 from my 2 desk top speakers?

If I had "cooked" the romex in the electrical system in my house would I get a higher voltage, "cleaner" power, no drops from regional grid load?

The claims made for power, speaker and interconnect cabling are on a par with those.

Show me any testing by the National Bureau of Standards (current name?) or JPL, Hughes, Ratheon, Livermore Labs, etc that can back up those cable claims.

I'm sure most would hear and see many things, nothing too unlike the typical changes one might encounter on a daily basis with no changes to equipment whatsover.
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post #158 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 08:48 AM
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"I'm sure most would hear and see many things, nothing too unlike the typical changes one might encounter on a daily basis with no changes to equipment whatsover."

Hallucinations. I can accept that.
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post #159 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 09:42 AM
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Hi,

I having difficulty following you as your previous post appears to contradict an earlier post of yours earlier in this thread.

I posted the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

I'm sure most would hear and see many things, nothing too unlike the typical changes one might encounter on a daily basis with no changes to equipment whatsover.

You reply with the following which on the surface is saying you feel if any differences are perceived then it's purely a hallucination. Perhaps it was just a humorous retort, if so disregard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

Hallucinations. I can accept that.

But early in this thread you posted the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

Did you know that if you hold your breath and listen to a tone it will sound different to you as you exhale? Your body and it acoustic sensitivities are the weakest link in the system and cannot be nulled to make anything close to an accurate calibration to quantify a system performance.

Ambient humidity, physical position, blood pressure, temperature, where you are in your daily circadian rhythm (how long have you been awake) and a dozen other factors all weigh in on how YOU as an individual perceive sound streams. They vary from minute to minute.

I'm wondering if you could clarify another point as well, you mentioned earlier in this thread of one experience you've had with RFI and that changing the cable to another with of a different design solved the problem. I presume different cable products employ varying levels of RFI rejection and that 100% blockage near impossible to obtain. At any given time/system there could be varying levels of RFI from the profoundly obvious, as noted in your story, to the sublimely subtle or imperceptible. Is it plausible the introduction of very subtle RFI onto the signal may change a listeners perception of the SQ without it being apparent the changes may be due to RFI. Are you familiar with any studies which have looked into this?
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post #160 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 10:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

and that 100% blockage near impossible to obtain.

Perhaps you can contact them and ask. http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDis...oductItemID=80
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post #161 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Apparently he is and has a some stuff published. Do a search under his full name and notice that he's got some book published by Wiley: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...306.x/abstract

Perhaps I can ask someone if they can get a copy.

Here's a few more of his "articles", including the one you mention. He's been at this for years, and has devoted followers. Some want to believe so badly, they hang on his every word:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103417

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104973

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104701

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104101

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71545

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95998

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89349

He also has articles in Affordable Audio, a joke of a publication that thinks $1000 or more for wire, is "affordable":

http://www.affordableaudio.org/aa2010-09.pdf

Takes forever to load, apparently they can't "afford" any bandwidth.
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post #162 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 10:53 AM
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"I presume different cable products employ varying levels of RFI rejection and that 100% blockage near impossible to obtain. At any given time/system there could be varying levels of RFI from the profoundly obvious, as noted in your story, to the sublimely subtle or imperceptible. Is it plausible the introduction of very subtle RFI onto the signal may change a listeners perception of the SQ without it being apparent the changes may be due to RFI."

RF incursion from the AM broadast band into mic lines is not at all uncommon, especially if you are in close proximity to a transmitter. Sometimes this can even be detected in a TELCO pair. However what you hear is simply additional program audio over your local source audio. There are differing degrees of shielding offered by different cable construction styles.

For instance, some cable manufacturers use a simple circumferential wrap of copper wire, some use an open braid (low strand count) some use a foil wrap with a drain wire, some use a straight wrap with a Z-fold on the edges of the foil and a drain wire, some have double braids, some have braid AND foil.

The Canare wire I used has a tight single layer braid over 2 twisted pairs. The 2 pair (Quadstar) construction with the tight braid affords the best induced noise cancellation and RF shielding I have ever found.

One additional issue is that many audio devices in the non pro market and some in the pro market use active balanced inputs as opposed to transformer coupling. We try NEVER to use non transformer based inputs and outputs as active opamp based inputs are easily prone to noise incursion from any number of sources.

In the case I described, the amp had non transformer coupled inputs. As it was easier to change the cable than the amp. I opted for the cable solution.

In Hi-Z (unbalanced) interconnections I have not had any issues with noise, crosstalk or RF incursion.
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post #163 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 11:05 AM
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Two links:

The first discussing RFI

http://brneurosci.org/interference.html

The second discussing Common Mode noise.

http://www.maxim-ic.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/2045

Of particular note see "cables and noise" in the second links.

So cables and power cords under all circumstances can never make a difference? I don't think you all should be so quick to say "never." My house has a clear improvement with a conditioner that addresses both common mode and RFI issues. (Furman It-Ref 20i, and Surgex RT-1120.) If I run my my Lexicon MC12 and LX7 amp unbalanced the noise floor is awful. Run it balanced and there is a dramatic improvement in noise floor. Likely due to Common Mode noise removal.

An example of what noise can do: Have an JVC RS20 projector connected to a PurePower 1050 power regenerator/ups. The unit has a couple of MOVs in it but it does not have a very robust surge protection stage. As a reult I put a BrickWall unit prior to the UPS, with an Aluminata cord on the RS20 projector. The picture was remarkable. Decided to upgrade the BrickWall to a Furman so I could turn on the rear sub with a switch. Also added a dedicated 20 amp line with JPS ac wire. What was the result? A disaster. A much noisier image resulted with a big hit on the sharp 3d like improvement I got with the brickwall/Aluminata addition. I was dumbfounded since I even cleared the Furman with both Purepower and Furman. After extensive reading I finally found the problem. The UPS MOVs and preceeding Furman's MOV (hybrid multi-stage protection Series Mode and MOV), combine to cause extensive noise to the ground.

An excerpt from Surgex
2/ "Surge protectors which have MOVs only between live and neutral divert energy only to neutral and do not contaminate the ground wire, but they are also not effective at completely protecting equipment. Not having any MOVs or other shunt devices to ground, they allow live and neutral to float with respect to chassis ground up to dangerously high voltage levels during a surge event. To use the technical term: they convert normal-mode surges to common-mode surges. Common-mode surges are normally only found at low, harmless levels on branch circuits, but when generated by such a piece of equipment they can be large and damaging. Power supplies in electronic equipment may be damaged, and equipment that has a common-mode filter on the AC power input will almost certainly be damaged. Common-mode filters often have capacitors from live and neutral to ground and these capacitors will be blown out by the large common-mode surges that are generated by this type of surge protector. It is extremely important that no other surge protectors which have MOVs to ground be plugged into the type of surge protector which has MOVs only between live and neutral. To do so will convert the protection back to the type which has MOVs between live, neutral and ground resulting in ground contamination exactly as per the discussion in (1) above. There is also the risk of blowing out the MOVs that are inside the second surge protector. This also applies to UPSs since most UPSs have MOVs between live, neutral and ground. Whereas it has been standard practice for many years to plug a UPS into a SurgeX in order to protect the UPS front-end, plugging a UPS into a surge protector which has MOVs only between live and neutral cannot be recommended for these same reasons. The SurgeX True Series Mode architecture effectively “disconnects” MOVs inside any equipment plugged into it but this is not the case with other architectures"

Furman and SurgeX now both confirm the problem and recommend removal of the Furman and replacement with a dedicated Series Mode device or nothing at all. The result of adding the JPS ac wire, the dedicated 20 amp circuit, and the SurgeX 1120-RT was amazing and now curiously improved the picture further than the BrickWall/1050 combo . The SurgeX in addition to common mode noise (like the brick wall) has additional differential/normal mode removal. How is this relevant when the UPS recreates perfect power/sine wave is beyond me.

Noise has a direct effect on video and audio signals alike. That is why interconnects,power cords and proper power conditioners can, under the right circumstances, systems, and environments make an appreciable improvement. YMMV.
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post #164 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

... I admit to not believing there's some hidden properties we have not yet discovered (yes, it's always possible there are unknown properties, but seems unlikely.)

....

Yes, those undiscovered sub atomic particles yet to be discovered that are causing all this uproar. But, we have that Large Hadron collider coming to our rescue.
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post #165 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

"I presume different cable products employ varying levels of RFI rejection and that 100% blockage near impossible to obtain. At any given time/system there could be varying levels of RFI from the profoundly obvious, as noted in your story, to the sublimely subtle or imperceptible. Is it plausible the introduction of very subtle RFI onto the signal may change a listeners perception of the SQ without it being apparent the changes may be due to RFI."

RF incursion from the AM broadast band into mic lines is not at all uncommon, especially if you are in close proximity to a transmitter. Sometimes this can even be detected in a TELCO pair. However what you hear is simply additional program audio over your local source audio. There are differing degrees of shielding offered by different cable construction styles.

For instance, some cable manufacturers use a simple circumferential wrap of copper wire, some use an open braid (low strand count) some use a foil wrap with a drain wire, some use a straight wrap with a Z-fold on the edges of the foil and a drain wire, some have double braids, some have braid AND foil.

The Canare wire I used has a tight single layer braid over 2 twisted pairs. The 2 pair (Quadstar) construction with the tight braid affords the best induced noise cancellation and RF shielding I have ever found.

One additional issue is that many audio devices in the non pro market and some in the pro market use active balanced inputs as opposed to transformer coupling. We try NEVER to use non transformer based inputs and outputs as active opamp based inputs are easily prone to noise incursion from any number of sources.

In the case I described, the amp had non transformer coupled inputs. As it was easier to change the cable than the amp. I opted for the cable solution.

In Hi-Z (unbalanced) interconnections I have not had any issues with noise, crosstalk or RF incursion.

Thanks for the reply,

In the process of looking for some research I came across a device marketed by Shure to reduce RFI in mic cables and I'll copy a portion of the ad lit.

"In cases where interference is present but not audible, the A15RF can improve perceived sound quality by removing low level interference components from the audio signal path."

Would you consider this to be a true statement?
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post #166 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Yes, those undiscovered sub atomic particles yet to be discovered that are causing all this uproar. But, we have that Large Hadron collider coming to our rescue.

Indeed. Just two days ago, 38 atoms of anti-matter (antihydrogen) were captured for 1/10 of a second, at CERN. Wonder if those atoms were musical?
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post #167 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee (QSC) View Post

G-Rex,

It seems to me that the groups you call "pro-cable" and "cable critics" could also be defined respectively as "not knowledgeable how wire and interfaces work" and "knowledgeable about how wire and interfaces work," wouldn't you say?

Be truthful: do these anonymous "engineers" that you pal with, and who confirm your notions about wire, really exist? I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they're as imaginary as the supposedly insufficiently revealing quality of the "critics'" sound systems that you've convinced yourself of.

Bob, you certainly can think what you wish. The engineers that I mentioned do exist and one in particular would cause you to fall out of your chair if you read his name. Yup, that credible.
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post #168 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 12:12 PM
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Bob, you certainly can think what you wish. The engineers that I mentioned do exist and one in particular would cause you to fall out of your chair if you read his name. Yup, that credible.

Name him already. John Curl the bybee believer?

If he's really as credible as you claim, he will be happy to join the discussion and set us all straight, instead of hiding.
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post #169 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 01:18 PM
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I see no issues at all with the A15RF. It is doing what my changing of the cables achieved. Shure is not the only one to carry such products. The question is, how do you tell if you have sub audible audio interference?

You can't hear it so the methodology must be test equipment. The same equipment we are trying to get the esoteric cable aficionados to use the prove the claims they make for these magic cables.

You can't have it both ways.
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post #170 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

Name him already. John Curl the bybee believer?

If he's really as credible as you claim, he will be happy to join the discussion and set us all straight, instead of hiding.

Oh, that is not all that he believes in
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post #171 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jpaik View Post

Indeed. Just two days ago, 38 atoms of anti-matter (antihydrogen) were captured for 1/10 of a second, at CERN. Wonder if those atoms were musical?

Not after they were captured.
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post #172 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

Name him already. John Curl the bybee believer?

Have you read his threads and the Bybee one on diyaudio? Hilarious, he's regularly bludgeoned with fact that contradicts him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

If he's really as credible as you claim, he will be happy to join the discussion and set us all straight, instead of hiding.

I agree.

“You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.” Chuck Palahniuk
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post #173 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 02:50 PM
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Not after they were captured.

And sent to Guantanamo Bay for attempting to annihilate themselves in the presence of normal matter.

“You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.” Chuck Palahniuk
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post #174 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

So cables and power cords under all circumstances can never make a difference? I don't think you all should be so quick to say "never." My house has a clear improvement with a conditioner that addresses both common mode and RFI issues. (Furman It-Ref 20i, and Surgex RT-1120.) If I run my my Lexicon MC12 and LX7 amp unbalanced the noise floor is awful. Run it balanced and there is a dramatic improvement in noise floor. Likely due to Common Mode noise removal.

An example of what noise can do: Have an JVC RS20 projector connected to a PurePower 1050 power regenerator/ups. The unit has a couple of MOVs in it but it does not have a very robust surge protection stage. As a reult I put a Brick Wall unit prior to the UPS, with an Aluminata cord on the RS20 projector. The picture was remarkable. Decided to upgrade the BrickWall to a Furman so I could turn on the rear sub with a switch. Also added a dedicated 20 amp line with JPS ac wire. What was the result? A disaster. A much noisier image resulted with a big hit on the sharp 3d like improvement I got with the brickwall/Aluminata addition. I was dumbfounded since I even cleared the Furman with both Purepower and Furman. After extensive reading I finally found the problem. The UPS MOVs and preceeding Furman's MOV (hybrid multi-stage protection Series Mode and MOV), combine to cause extensive noise to the ground.

An excerpt from Surgex
2/ "Surge protectors which have MOVs only between live and neutral divert energy only to neutral and do not contaminate the ground wire, but they are also not effective at completely protecting equipment. Not having any MOVs or other shunt devices to ground, they allow live and neutral to float with respect to chassis ground up to dangerously high voltage levels during a surge event. To use the technical term: they convert normal-mode surges to common-mode surges. Common-mode surges are normally only found at low, harmless levels on branch circuits, but when generated by such a piece of equipment they can be large and damaging. Power supplies in electronic equipment may be damaged, and equipment that has a common-mode filter on the AC power input will almost certainly be damaged. Common-mode filters often have capacitors from live and neutral to ground and these capacitors will be blown out by the large common-mode surges that are generated by this type of surge protector. It is extremely important that no other surge protectors which have MOVs to ground be plugged into the type of surge protector which has MOVs only between live and neutral. To do so will convert the protection back to the type which has MOVs between live, neutral and ground resulting in ground contamination exactly as per the discussion in (1) above. There is also the risk of blowing out the MOVs that are inside the second surge protector. This also applies to UPSs since most UPSs have MOVs between live, neutral and ground. Whereas it has been standard practice for many years to plug a UPS into a SurgeX in order to protect the UPS front-end, plugging a UPS into a surge protector which has MOVs only between live and neutral cannot be recommended for these same reasons. The SurgeX True Series Mode architecture effectively disconnects MOVs inside any equipment plugged into it but this is not the case with other architectures"

Furman and SurgeX now both confirm the problem and recommend removal of the Furman and replacement with a dedicated Series Mode device or nothing at all. The result of adding the SurgeX 1120-RT was amazing and now curiously improved the picture further than the BrickWall . The SurgeX in addition to common mode noise (like the brick wall) has additional differential/normal mode removal. How is this relevant when the UPS recreates perfect power/sine wave is beyond me. Anyone?

Noise has a direct effect on video and audio signals alike. That is why interconnects,power cords and proper power conditioners can, under the right circumstances, systems, and environments make an appreciable improvement. YMMV.

... In the examples from your experience above, you probably could have had the power system repaired within your house and realize the same improvements. Most of the problems you are describing are due to poor grounding, bonding and connections. In some instances, poor power supplies within the equipment attached to the electrical system can cause power quality issues. Adding power conditioners, exotic suppression systems and such are typically band aid solutions which do not repair the underlying problem.

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post #175 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 03:23 PM
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^^^

well, since the "improvements" were completely imaginary in nature, repairing non-existent problems with the power in the house wouldn't have sparked the imagination nearly as much...

oy... now power cables are getting thrown in as well...

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post #176 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 03:28 PM
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Yes, those undiscovered sub atomic particles yet to be discovered that are causing all this uproar. But, we have that Large Hadron collider coming to our rescue.

The Higg's Boson will explain all this stuff we don't understand. It will be nicknamed the audiophile particle.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #177 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Doogie View Post

... In the examples from your experience above, you probably could have had the power system repaired within your house and realize the same improvements. Most of the problems you are describing are due to poor grounding, bonding and connections. In some instances, poor power supplies within the equipment attached to the electrical system can cause power quality issues. Adding power conditioners, exotic suppression systems and such are typically band aid solutions which do not repair the underlying problem.

New 200 amp sevice (twin panels) in 2008. Dedicated shot gun 20 amp lines all new. Cell tower near, tv station antenna near, a house filled with appliances, air conditioner, lighting/dimmers...Component interaction as well as the power from the town. Needed the conditioners.

In the example above I showed you how component interaction can pollute the ground. Could be a gain issue between the pre and amp, but would running balanced xlrs really help the problem to the degree it did? Doubtful. Power supplies in Lexicon products are pretty good quality.
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post #178 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 04:37 PM
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^^^

well, since the "improvements" were completely imaginary in nature, repairing non-existent problems with the power in the house wouldn't have sparked the imagination nearly as much...

oy... now power cables are getting thrown in as well...

Wow, so far from imaginary. This was confirmed by TWO electrical engineers.
The ground contamination issue is not contrary to EE theory at all, but you will opposite just for the sake of oppositing. If the placebo effect was real I would have said "wow look what the new dedicated 20 amp circuit with JPS wire and the new Furman has done to the picture...so much better." Instead the opposite occured. Enjoy your system which is surely connected by coat hangers. Someday some of you will learn things you previously discounted. Unfortunately those type of guys rarely post.
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Someday some of you will learn things you previously discounted.

You certainly don't consider yourself an exception, do you?
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post #180 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 05:07 PM
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You certainly don't consider yourself an exception, do you?

Nope, no exception. Just learned and posted to never put an MOV based device prior to a UPS (with MOVs). That which I (and many others) would have previously discounted as being a problem. We are all still learning, just some of you don't know it yet.
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