Do interconnects matter? - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Wow, so far from imaginary. This was confirmed by TWO electrical engineers.

When will you name the imaginary engineers? Particularly the one that "would cause you to fall out of your chair if you read his name"?
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post #182 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

When will you name the imaginary engineers? Particularly the one that "would cause you to fall out of your chair if you read his name"?

"Imaginary".... your just trying to get under my skin, it will not work. The disclosure of his name is his call not mine. Not going to watch you guys tear up a very accomplished engineer to promote your self internet rep worth.
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post #183 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 05:43 PM
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He who shall not be named. Ok...you probably shouldn't have brought him up then.
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post #184 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 06:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Not going to watch you guys tear up a very accomplished engineer to promote your self internet rep worth.

What is there to tear up if he has facts to back up whatever he discovered?
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post #185 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 08:04 PM
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voldemort.

he's an engineer as well?? wow.
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post #186 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by a9x-308 View Post

and sent to guantanamo bay for attempting to annihilate themselves in the presence of normal matter.

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post #187 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

The Higg's Boson will explain all this stuff we don't understand. It will be nicknamed the audiophile particle.

Exactly! The four forces will show how the audiophile particle interacts in the universe. Just hook up a boson guage to your turntable, or power cord, or interconnect, and all will be revealed.
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post #188 of 243 Old 11-20-2010, 10:11 PM
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We will all get to experience that awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to..... the outer limits.

(Disclaimer:This will of course require a superbly revealing system, slathered in blue goop anti-vibration compounds from the uber complex upgrades developed in laboratories using such advanced equipment that no one on earth can possibly grasp the concepts and all interconnects are completed with cables developed using quark based molecular alignment and immersed in liquid nitrogen)
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post #189 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

There is another member here with, to me, a much more curious sign-up history. He registered for this forum about 5 years ago, never posted even once until about a year ago, but has been furiously posting ever since.

Which reminds me - I wonder if Pulliam ever made it back here under an assumed name?

Nah - I think we'd have known by now.
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post #190 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Wow, so far from imaginary. This was confirmed by TWO electrical engineers.
The ground contamination issue is not contrary to EE theory at all, but you will opposite just for the sake of oppositing. If the placebo effect was real I would have said "wow look what the new dedicated 20 amp circuit with JPS wire and the new Furman has done to the picture...so much better." Instead the opposite occured. Enjoy your system which is surely connected by coat hangers. Someday some of you will learn things you previously discounted. Unfortunately those type of guys rarely post.

for starters, you need to read a bit about how power supplies in a tv work...

yes, i expected the usual dismissal (coat hangers, etc.)...

you'd be surprised at what i've learned.... those "learnings" have saved me considerable funds...

you also might want to read a bit about what "learning" really is...

- chris

 

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post #191 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Which reminds me - I wonder if Pulliam ever made it back here under an assumed name?

Nah - I think we'd have known by now.

dear me, i hope not...

yea, it'd be hard not to recognize his posting style...

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post #192 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

I see no issues at all with the A15RF. It is doing what my changing of the cables achieved. Shure is not the only one to carry such products. The question is, how do you tell if you have sub audible audio interference?

You can't hear it so the methodology must be test equipment. The same equipment we are trying to get the esoteric cable aficionados to use the prove the claims they make for these magic cables.

You can't have it both ways.

I can't find any research/listening tests which would back-up Shure's claim that removing inaudible low level interference can improve perceived sound quality but there appears to considerable information from the pro audio world which definitely would steer one in that direction. A quick look-up in my "Sound Reinforcement Handbook, Davis & Jones" would tend to steer one that way as well.

Even in the absence objective testing it's safe to conclude interference whether, RFI or EMI, most definitely has a audible effect on sound quality, question is at what levels does it stop having perceived effect. It's also obvious there are many different shielding strategies applied to cable design, each of these shielding strategies employed has direct effect on the characteristics of the cable such as flexibility, robustness, capacitance and inductance and the amount of RFI/EMI attenuation. The cable chosen for an application would be the one which best balances these attributes to the usage.

Regarding "The question" it's not just how does one tell if you have sub-audible audio interference but also how does one tell when they have the grey transition area between sub-audible and obviously audible interference. The bigger question is how do these varying levels of sub-audible and audible interference influence the listening experience. Though Shure believe inaudible levels can reduce perceived sound quality, without objective testing (still looking but can't locate any yet) one can only guess at how. Is dynamic range sound more compressed, do the highs sound less smooth, does the soundstage become less defined and can these differences if any be defined outside of the usual physiological/pychological noise.

Yes, measuring the cable is step one. Out of curiosity what equipment are you trying to get them to use and for which measurements. What avenues of persuasion have been taken so far? Can the results of a measurement outside of the system provide relevant information for this purpose?

Unless there's objective testing to prove otherwise, it's unreasonable to conclude varying levels (approaching and below the audible range) rfi/emi attenuation influenced by differing cable designs either can or can not have an effect on perceived sound quality let alone know what descriptions might be used to describe them.
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post #193 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 07:11 AM
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RFI incursion can be sub audible and as such can and has created low frequency continuyous oscillations in the input amps stages that can be detrimental to the operation of the amp when handling a purely audible signal.

Think of that suspension bridge that collapsed from the resonant frequency oscillations triggered by the wind. The bridge itself was sound for its intended purpose, but the additional stress of the wind placed more strain on it than was intended.

You can see the noise on a scope in any stage of the preamp/amp system. It is NOT a common occurrence though and you will rarely find any sound engineer carrying an RF filter in his tech kit.

One way this can be detected is by meter movement on the VU meter when no audio signal on the input is present.
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post #194 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 09:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

Though Shure believe inaudible levels can reduce perceived sound quality, without objective testing (still looking but can't locate any yet) one can only guess at how.

How? If you are told about it then it will to you.

Surely Shure will believe it and say so. If you are selling audio products with added feature that other companies don't bother with, would you advertise that feature as unnecessary one?
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Is dynamic range sound more compressed, do the highs sound less smooth, does the soundstage become less defined and can these differences if any be defined outside of the usual physiological/pychological noise.

...

Unless there's objective testing to prove otherwise, it's unreasonable to conclude varying levels (approaching and below the audible range) rfi/emi attenuation influenced by differing cable designs either can or can not have an effect on perceived sound quality let alone know what descriptions might be used to describe them.

Try this, after listening to music for a few minutes with your system, stop the music and put your ear close enough to the speaker until you notice the noise floor (hiss, buzz or hum). If you do notice the noise floor, think of this as byproduct of EMI/RFI. Then sit back and listen to the same music again with a thought that now your system is polluted with EMI/RFI and see what you find. Don't forget to take the exact sequence as described (don't cheat) and also make sure your head is in the same position before and after.
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post #195 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

Even in the absence objective testing it's safe to conclude interference whether, RFI or EMI, most definitely has a audible effect on sound quality, question is at what levels does it stop having perceived effect.

No, it's not at all obvious that it causes an audible effect in the absence of substantiating evidence.

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post #196 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

No, it's not at all obvious that it causes an audible effect in the absence of substantiating evidence.

It seemed obvious enough in Gizmologists example.
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post #197 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

How? If you are told about it then it will to you.

You seemed to have completely missed the meaning of the sentenced you replied to.

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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Try this, after listening to music for a few minutes with your system, stop the music and put your ear close enough to the speaker until you notice the noise floor (hiss, buzz or hum). If you do notice the noise floor, think of this as byproduct of EMI/RFI. Then sit back and listen to the same music again with a thought that now your system is polluted with EMI/RFI and see what you find. Don't forget to take the exact sequence as described (don't cheat) and also make sure your head is in the same position before and after.

So this is the type of testing which passes muster with you, I believe some might call that speaking out of both sides of your mouth, but it's irrelevant to my post which again you've completely misunderstood.

Yes setbacks will happen, try to stay positive and eat well.
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post #198 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

It seemed obvious enough in Gizmologists example.

One of the few times I have disagred with giz, but I have seen no substantiative evidence that RFI is indeed the cause of any effect he may have seen. LF issues tend to be PS and decoupling related.

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post #199 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

One of the few times I have disagred with giz, but I have seen no substantiative evidence that RFI is indeed the cause of any effect he may have seen. LF issues tend to be PS and decoupling related.

What about the am station example:

"For instance I had an install with foil shield and brad shielded CL2 wire in a Lo-Z microphone line of 75 ft length that was receiving AM radio as clearly as if the tuner were plugged into the system. No amount of field jerry rigs would solve the problem so I tried exchanging the cable with a section of Canare L4E6S and that solved the problem


seemed obvious that degraded the intended signal somewhat, perhaps he just didn't like the particular song playing.
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post #200 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 10:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

You seemed to have completely missed the meaning of the sentenced you replied to.



So this is the type of testing which passes muster with you, I believe some might call that speaking out of both sides of your mouth, but it's irrelevant to my post which again you've completely misunderstood.

Yes setbacks will happen, try to stay positive and eat well.

Of course you will say that and I expected it. It was to see how you will respond to it and that in turn exposes what your preconceived notion is. In this case, you are one of the cable believers and that's why you keep digging up issues that are not even problems with existing audio cable technology because you want it to be so that all those pseudo audio cable science written on those company white papers seem valid.

One part you've omitted in the quote (#197) was "Surely Shure will believe it and say so. If you are selling audio products with added feature that other companies don't bother with, would you advertise that feature as unnecessary one?" So you do agree with it, right?
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post #201 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

for starters, you need to read a bit about how power supplies in a tv work...

yes, i expected the usual dismissal (coat hangers, etc.)...

you'd be surprised at what i've learned.... those "learnings" have saved me considerable funds...

you also might want to read a bit about what "learning" really is...

Dear AVS:

Can you please create a "$5 and under" and "snake oil" forum for these swell bunch of guys. They really need a forum of their own to prosper in. Then more people would come out of the closet and talk about how quality cables, power cords, and line conditioners improved audio/video for them.

Thanks.
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post #202 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 10:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

What about the am station example:

"For instance I had an install with foil shield and brad shielded CL2 wire in a Lo-Z microphone line of 75 ft length that was receiving AM radio as clearly as if the tuner were plugged into the system. No amount of field jerry rigs would solve the problem so I tried exchanging the cable with a section of Canare L4E6S and that solved the problem


seemed obvious that degraded the intended signal somewhat, perhaps he just didn't like the particular song playing.

Funny how you twist things around just to fit your preexisting agenda. He wrote, "that was receiving AM radio as clearly as if the tuner were plugged into the system" and you describe it as, "seemed obvious that degraded the intended signal somewhat". Not good.
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post #203 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 10:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Outlaw30 View Post

Dear AVS:

Can you please create a "$5 and under" and "snake oil" forum for these swell bunch of guys. They really need a forum of their own to prosper in. Then more people would come out of the closet and talk about how quality cables, power cords, and line conditioners improved audio/video for them.

Thanks.

It hasn't been done because it's redundant. There already are forums like that. One of them is called Audio Asylum.
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post #204 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Of course you will say that and I expected it. It was to see how you will respond to it and that in turn exposes what your preconceived notion is. In this case, you are one of the cable believers and that's why you keep digging up issues that are not even problems with existing audio cable technology because you want it to be so that all those pseudo audio cable science written on those company white papers seem valid.

One part you've omitted in the quote (#197) was "Surely Shure will believe it and say so. If you are selling audio products with added feature that other companies don't bother with, would you advertise that feature as unnecessary one?" So you do agree with it, right?

Sure by itself, and even with additional anecdotal evidence it's worth questioning. Pleas re-read my post, are you using a language translator?

You should really try to be objective, as someone seems to want, at least,ve the impression you know something about science you're failing miserably in the objectivity department. I've never stated I'm a cable believer or that I'm not a cable believer. What difference would it make, there's nothing in my writing which would make any of that relevant anyway. I'm looking at an area which, imo, requires some clarification.
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post #205 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by 2.ooohhh View Post

My father's reference setup is an entirely different story the MIT interconnects clearly made the highs seem brighter and more full, but to hear that difference you will not only increase the cost of the interconnects x10

To keep things factual: MIT products are very technically NOT cables. They are no more a cable then me taking a DEQ2496 and having a input and output cable connected to it.

Anything with a big mystery box full of passive components in the middle is NOT a cable.

Secondly double blind testing is never about which sounds better, it is about following a difference regardless of preference.

Thirdly anyone can make an interconnect, cable, music interface and on purpose make it sound 'different' and then market that difference.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #206 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Outlaw30 View Post
Dear AVS:

Can you please create a "$5 and under" and "snake oil" forum for these swell bunch of guys. They really need a forum of their own to prosper in. Then more people would come out of the closet and talk about how quality cables, power cords, and line conditioners improved audio/video for them.

Thanks.

Dear AVS:

Thank you for being an open forum which values an open exchange of ideas, unlike all too many audio sites that restrict parameters of discussion which has only served to inoculate their members from anything that would substantively counter their existing attitudes about audio. Then when these members venture out to explore other audio sites, now with deeply entrenched views in tow, they are unable to adapt to any significant pushback challenge. Instead of simply ignoring these challenges or seriously re-examining their own attitudes, they seek to recreate the safe womb of restricted ideas provided by other forums.

Thanks

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post #207 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Outlaw30 View Post
Dear AVS:

Can you please create a "$5 and under" and "snake oil" forum for these swell bunch of guys. They really need a forum of their own to prosper in. Then more people would come out of the closet and talk about how quality cables, power cords, and line conditioners improved audio/video for them.

Thanks.
perhaps avs IS the forum for the $5 and under crowd...

"come out of the closet"... come now, is it that tragic to have your "beliefs" challenged by people? or is the tragedy having to deal with "reality"?

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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post
It hasn't been done because it's redundant. There already are forums like that. One of them is called Audio Asylum.
yes, amoungst others... there are more than enough places for the "true believers"... however, like most "true believers", regardless of the subject at hand, they want to impose those "beliefs" everywhere they go...

fortunately, avs isn't one of those places... rejoice, there IS some sanity in the world...

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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
Dear AVS:

Thank you for being an open forum which values an open exchange of ideas, unlike all too many audio sites that restrict parameters of discussion which has only served to inoculate their members from anything that would substantively counter their existing attitudes about audio. Then when these members venture out to explore other audio sites, now with deeply entrenched views in tow, they are unable to adapt to any significant pushback challenge. Instead of simply ignoring these challenges or seriously re-examining their own attitudes, they seek to recreate the safe womb of restricted ideas provided by other forums.

Thanks
lol... thats good cruel, and an altogether too true picture of the situation at hand...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

https://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #208 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 11:19 AM
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Anything with a big mystery box full of passive components in the middle is NOT a cable.
+1
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Secondly double blind testing is never about which sounds better, it is about following a difference regardless of preference.
DBTs can be used to determine which sounds better, but those aren't the DBTs we're talking about here. (And there's no point in determining which sounds better until you've determined that you can tell them apart at all.)
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Thirdly anyone can make an interconnect, cable, music interface and on purpose make it sound 'different' and then market that difference.
Fourthly, anyone can make an interconnect, cable, music interface that sounds the same as all the others and then market it as different anyway.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #209 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

To keep things factual: MIT products are very technically NOT cables. They are no more a cable then me taking a DEQ2496 and having a input and output cable connected to it.

Anything with a big mystery box full of passive components in the middle is NOT a cable.

Secondly double blind testing is never about which sounds better, it is about following a difference regardless of preference.

Thirdly anyone can make an interconnect, cable, music interface and on purpose make it sound 'different' and then market that difference.

And yet, even MIT's, own people can't pick out their cables in a blind test:

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/i...9789#msg539789

BTW, anyone think it's coincidence that they chose a name using the same initials as a distinguished institution of higher learning? Talk about marketing.
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post #210 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 11:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Hughman View Post
I've never stated I'm a cable believer or that I'm not a cable believer.
You've just reaffirmed my earlier reply, "It was to see how you will respond to it and that in turn exposes what your preconceived notion is". There would be no need for such investigation if you already stated one way or another. Although, some try to disguise by making things up. Some others don't realize what was in the Kool-aid they drank.

Quote:
I'm looking at an area which, imo, requires some clarification.
Your opinion requires some reading on the basics about audio cables.
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
http://www.sound.westhost.com/cables...#interconnects
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