Do interconnects matter? - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post
Why is it that those who think they have a better method, are never willing to put in any effort to prove it?
Over @ Polk Forums DarqueKnight put together a testing methology that is published in JOSS (Journal of Sensory Studies).

His basic premise is that AB/X is fundamentally flawed and that many giants in the audioindustry have abandonded this method.

Link to his thread and his abstract

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #212 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post
Over @ Polk Forums DarqueKnight put together a testing methology that is published in JOSS (Journal of Sensory Studies).

His basic premise is that AB/X is fundamentally flawed and that many giants in the audioindustry have abandonded this method.

Link to his thread and his abstract
Already been linked to earlier in this thread. He provides no evidence that ABX is flawed, just opinion. All he does is describe a method of listening, no verification that the differences described actually exist. Big deal.

Obviously without blind listening, it's easy to identify the DUT. Not sure what the point is, or why it was published, in what's basically a food journal no less.
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post #213 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post
You've just reaffirmed my earlier reply, "It was to see how you will respond to it and that in turn exposes what your preconceived notion is". There would be no need for such investigation if you already stated one way or another. Although, some try to disguise by making things up. Some others don't realize what was in the Kool-aid they drank.
I leave out certain quotes of yours as a gift to you, it just seems the decent thing to do.

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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post
Your opinion requires some reading on the basics about audio cables.
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
http://www.sound.westhost.com/cables...#interconnects
Neither of the sites you link mention of RFI or EMI let alone any audible effects they may or may not introduce, so how exactly is that relevant to the RFI/EMI discussion. Just shows, yet once again, you are incapable of grasping what is being discussed.

With regards to RFI/EMI interference and it's audibility at low levels I don't have an opinion. In the process of looking for some studies on the subject I found the gadget Shure is selling which was accompanied with a claim. I clearly stated I can found no evidence to back up such claims but it does appear to be consistent with general pro audio practices to reduce or eliminate the effects of RFI/EMI. Can low or inaudible levels really have a negative impact perceived sound quality, I don't know, that's the reason for the questioning.
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post #214 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 12:39 PM
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Like most of the in-line modules Shure and others make, they were developed at the request of customers in the field encountering unusual problems. As I mentioned on rare occasions I have had RF incursion. In my case it was the audio that was an issue due to the proximity to the transmitter and the transmitter frequency. I have had maybe 3 issues with RF since I started in this biz.

We do use phase reversers a LOT, hi/lo pass filters, and ground lifts in li level balanced interconnects between house sound systems and satt trucks or mobile recording trucks. Shure sells all of these in large quantity but I would bet the A15RF is a rarity.
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post #215 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post
Already been linked to earlier in this thread. He provides no evidence that ABX is flawed, just opinion. All he does is describe a method of listening, no verification that the differences described actually exist. Big deal.

Obviously without blind listening, it's easy to identify the DUT. Not sure what the point is, or why it was published, in what's basically a food journal no less.
As a note: Recently there was a cable burn-in thread there.

I offered to $100 and bragging rights to send two 12' Belden 12AWG GLS locking nanners that have easily 400-500 use on them and two 12' Belden with same nanners that have never been used (all cable from the same spool). All they had to do is place two sets of cables into their correct catagory.

You have never seen so much back peddling in your life. It was like they just rounded the bend in a trail and happened upon a Cobra. It was comical to say the least.

DK was one of the back pedlers.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #216 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post
As a note: Recently there was a cable burn-in thread there.

I offered to $100 and bragging rights to send two 12' Belden 12AWG GLS locking nanners that have easily 400-500 use on them and two 12' Belden with same nanners that have never been used (all cable from the same spool). All they had to do is place two sets of cables into their correct catagory.

You have never seen so much back peddling in your life. It was like they just rounded the bend in a trail and happened upon a Cobra. It was comical to say the least.

DK was one of the back pedlers.
Not surprised. That forum's sole existence seems to be to spread audio myths. I wouldn't take it too seriously, no one else does. Most of the more active posters there don't even own Polk speakers.

I'm surprised Polk Audio puts up with them. I'm sure they drive many people away from Polk speakers with their arrogance.
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post #217 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post
perhaps avs IS the forum for the $5 and under crowd...
I think the "CECB" sub-forum here specifically has already got that title sewn up.
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post #218 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 02:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Hughman View Post
Just shows, yet once again, you are incapable of grasping what is being discussed.
^^^
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post
Try this, after listening to music for a few minutes with your system, stop the music and put your ear close enough to the speaker until you notice the noise floor (hiss, buzz or hum).
I was waiting to see if you have any grasp on EMI/RFI translating to audibility but your reply is as I expected.

Do you know what buzzing from the speaker can mean?
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post #219 of 243 Old 11-21-2010, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

... Not sure what the point is, or why it was published, in what's basically a food journal no less.

Most likely because that journal didn't require further evidence that it works. Remember, IEEE wants a bunch more work before it will even review the paper. Not submitted to JASA? JAES? Why not?

I wonder what expertise those peers reviewing the paper have in sound, acoustics, etc, way out of the food industry knowledge base.
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post #220 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

I think the "CECB" sub-forum here specifically has already got that title sewn up.

lol...

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post #221 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jpaik View Post

Indeed. Just two days ago, 38 atoms of anti-matter (antihydrogen) were captured for 1/10 of a second, at CERN.

Actually, it was over a longer timeframe, as it was within 335 runs.

They mixed the antiprotons and positrons for one second, then pulse the electrodes of the penning trap four times at up to 500 volts to clear then mirror trapped antiprotons, this takes 172 milliseconds.. then they shut the superconducting octupole down..this takes about 10 milliseconds.

Then they look for annihilation events for 30 more milliseconds.


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Wonder if those atoms were musical?

Of course they were. They sang their guts out with their swan song..

One hit wonders...

Cheers, John

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post #222 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 12:38 PM
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"They mixed the antiprotons and positrons for one second, then pulse the electrodes of the penning trap four times at up to 500 volts to clear then mirror trapped antiprotons, this takes 172 milliseconds.. then they shut the superconducting octupole down..this takes about 10 milliseconds"

I believe that is what the magic cables and wires do with help from those super secret design miracle capacitors. Pink Floyd never sounded so good(?).
"
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post #223 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

"They mixed the antiprotons and positrons for one second, then pulse the electrodes of the penning trap four times at up to 500 volts to clear then mirror trapped antiprotons, this takes 172 milliseconds.. then they shut the superconducting octupole down..this takes about 10 milliseconds"

I believe that is what the magic cables and wires do with help from those super secret design miracle capacitors. Pink Floyd never sounded so good(?).
"

It's all in the mix...

Just send two SASE's, and they'll toss the positrons in one, the antiprotons in the other, shake and bake...

Just keep the Oakleys on..oh, and the SPF 50,000.

John

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post #224 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 01:44 PM
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Bob, you certainly can think what you wish. The engineers that I mentioned do exist and one in particular would cause you to fall out of your chair if you read his name. Yup, that credible.

I'm talking about engineers with actual technical knowledge, not superstitious guys who call themselves engineers.

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post #225 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

Actually, it was over a longer timeframe, as it was within 335 runs.

They mixed the antiprotons and positrons for one second, then pulse the electrodes of the penning trap four times at up to 500 volts to clear then mirror trapped antiprotons, this takes 172 milliseconds.. then they shut the superconducting octupole down..this takes about 10 milliseconds.

Then they look for annihilation events for 30 more milliseconds.




Of course they were. They sang their guts out with their swan song..

One hit wonders...

Cheers, John

I see you got my brain wave transmissions the other day wondering where you are
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post #226 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by terry j View Post

voldemort.

he's an engineer as well?? wow.

You beat me to it.

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post #227 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Lee (QSC) View Post

I'm talking about engineers with actual technical knowledge, not superstitious guys who call themselves engineers.

Yep, lots of professionals fall into that kind of category, from time to time. No one has immunity from the voodoo world.
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post #228 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 01:53 PM
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"I'm talking about engineers with actual technical knowledge, not superstitious guys who call themselves engineers."

Why so worried about the details? Magic is just that. We mortals cannot grasp the concept.
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post #229 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 05:26 PM
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I saw the CERN thing. Very cool. I am all for the accelerator at CERN, providing they don't create micro black holes to destroy us, or strangelets or wavlets, or whatchamallcallit.

And no Grues. Grues are very dangerous.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #230 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 07:57 PM
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The saddest thing about this site is that after about 5 replies to a topic, it always turns into a d**k measuring contest. One way or another its about the science behind this, the test results about that, the "i know this engineer who said this", and on and on and on and on and on....

The man just asked a simple question, like a lot of other people on this forum, and it always gets hijacked by the "cables make a difference" vs the "cables dont make a difference" people, everytime, in every post.

Here's my theory, if paying 50, 500, or 5,000 bucks for an all silver cable makes me THINK im getting a better sound, and by the placebo effect i BELIEVE it sounds better, than to me, its worth the investment. I have no problem paying extra to trick myself into hearing a better audio quality in my mind. Only people who want to start a stupid no-win fight would care otherwise. The truth is, buy the interconnects you want, either way, you will enjoy them. Your budget is up to you, and damn all the science if need be- your ears are unique as are your audio experiences. END. OF. STORY.
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post #231 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Zmina View Post

Here's my theory, if paying 50, 500, or 5,000 bucks for an all silver cable makes me THINK im getting a better sound, and by the placebo effect i BELIEVE it sounds better, than to me, its worth the investment. I have no problem paying extra to trick myself into hearing a better audio quality in my mind. Only people who want to start a stupid no-win fight would care otherwise. The truth is, buy the interconnects you want, either way, you will enjoy them. Your budget is up to you, and damn all the science if need be- your ears are unique as are your audio experiences. END. OF. STORY.

Why would you want to spend money on something that does nothing in the hope that you can long term delude yourself into believing it makes an improvement, when you could spend the money on something that DOES make an improvement?

“You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.” Chuck Palahniuk
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post #232 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

What about the am station example:

"For instance I had an install with foil shield and brad shielded CL2 wire in a Lo-Z microphone line of 75 ft length that was receiving AM radio as clearly as if the tuner were plugged into the system. No amount of field jerry rigs would solve the problem so I tried exchanging the cable with a section of Canare L4E6S and that solved the problem


seemed obvious that degraded the intended signal somewhat, perhaps he just didn't like the particular song playing.

Hardly an appropriate example. The original cable may have been damaged upon installation or of not sufficiently high quality shielding for the application, so replacing it with a non fancy well engineered product solved the issue. Also in an average home system there is seldom 75ft of mic level signal. path lengths are much shorted, typically less than a metre and signal levels about 60dB higher. So using the generic Canare in a typical system should have resulted in no audible problems whatsoever and for about $4/m.

I have also spent many years in broadcast often working in the high radiation zone in Artarmon Sydney (3 major broadcast towers in a couple of sq km) and managed to get no interference on lots of audio systems.

“You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.” Chuck Palahniuk
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post #233 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 08:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Zmina View Post

The saddest thing about this site is that after about 5 replies to a topic, it always turns into a d**k measuring contest. One way or another its about the science behind this, the test results about that, the "i know this engineer who said this", and on and on and on and on and on....

The man just asked a simple question, like a lot of other people on this forum, and it always gets hijacked by the "cables make a difference" vs the "cables dont make a difference" people, everytime, in every post.

Here's my theory, if paying 50, 500, or 5,000 bucks for an all silver cable makes me THINK im getting a better sound, and by the placebo effect i BELIEVE it sounds better, than to me, its worth the investment. I have no problem paying extra to trick myself into hearing a better audio quality in my mind. Only people who want to start a stupid no-win fight would care otherwise. The truth is, buy the interconnects you want, either way, you will enjoy them. Your budget is up to you, and damn all the science if need be- your ears are unique as are your audio experiences. END. OF. STORY.

Zmina, make sure to look at the top of the page so that you will know which forum it is before posting. You mistook this forum with another.
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post #234 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Zmina View Post

I have no problem paying extra to trick myself into hearing a better audio quality in my mind. Only people who want to start a stupid no-win fight would care otherwise. The truth is, buy the interconnects you want, either way, you will enjoy them. Your budget is up to you, and damn all the science if need be- your ears are unique as are your audio experiences. END. OF. STORY.

Cool, buy what you want, but he asked if they made a difference. If we lie to him, will it make you feel better?
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post #235 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 09:17 PM
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As someone with a couple thousand hi end professional AV/multimedia designs and installs behind him, I have run into just about every issue imaginable INCLUDING AM RF incursion although very few. Most RF interference now arises from wireless mike systems of less than perfect alignment or incorrect multi unit frequency selection.

Another RF issue that can be very tough to control is military traffic. Around Pt. Mugu and a few other places here in SoCal, the traffic is a real PIA.

We get RF data from Blackberry style systems as well. That has been a MAJOR issue for production companies all over the country, so much so, that many times the MCs of a meeting will ask that everyone actually power them down as opposed to just silencing them. This RF data xmission noise can impart itself on short unbalanced interconnects between racks.

BTW anyone paying 4.00 a meter for Canare L4E6s or similar call me. I want to be your supplier so I can retire in a couple weeks.
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post #236 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 09:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

BTW anyone paying 4.00 a meter for Canare L4E6s or similar call me. I want to be your supplier so I can retire in a couple weeks.

Then you'll get sued by a cable vendor who posts here for copying his business tactic. Then he will retire in couple weeks.
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post #237 of 243 Old 11-22-2010, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

BTW anyone paying 4.00 a meter for Canare L4E6s or similar call me. I want to be your supplier so I can retire in a couple weeks.

In small quantities, a few metres or so, it's about $3.50 -$4.50 a metre down here. I seldom need a lot of quantity any more so spools aren't worth it.

“You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.” Chuck Palahniuk
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post #238 of 243 Old 11-23-2010, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

I see you got my brain wave transmissions the other day wondering where you are

Same ol same ol. Same place as well. Did the Geneva thing coupla weeks ago, somebody called from there, needed a plumber, so I went.....

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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I saw the CERN thing. Very cool. I am all for the accelerator at CERN, providing they don't create micro black holes to destroy us, or strangelets or wavlets, or whatchamallcallit.

I think the worst that could happen has happened....they flashed 2000 gallons of liquid helium into gas when they dumped most of the stored magnet energy into a bad solder joint.

Cosmic rays have energies many orders of magnitude higher than anything LHC can do. Yet the moon still exists..go figure.

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And no Grues. Grues are very dangerous.

I make no claims, they make no promises.

Cheers, John

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post #239 of 243 Old 11-23-2010, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Why would you want to spend money on something that does nothing in the hope that you can long term delude yourself into believing it makes an improvement, when you could spend the money on something that DOES make an improvement?


I agree.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #240 of 243 Old 11-23-2010, 09:04 AM
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"In small quantities, a few metres or so, it's about $3.50 -$4.50 a metre down here. I seldom need a lot of quantity any more so spools aren't worth it."

Here in SoCal I can buy full spools (1000ft) at about .40 a ft.

Is is the import fees that are so high? We buy from Canare warehouse in San Fernando, CA (not a rep) and he gets it right from Japan.
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