AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/)
-   Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/)
-   -   Do interconnects matter? (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1289499-do-interconnects-matter.html)

m-heat 11-12-2010 07:16 AM

After some time of buying into snakoil I and convinced speaker wire/power cables do not matter. I am wondering about RCA cables? Is there a difference there?

geekhd 11-12-2010 07:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by m-heat View Post

After some time of buying into snakoil I and convinced speaker wire/power cables do not matter. I am wondering about RCA cables? Is there a difference there?

Here you go.

htcritic 11-12-2010 08:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by m-heat View Post

After some time of buying into snakoil I and convinced speaker wire/power cables do not matter. I am wondering about RCA cables? Is there a difference there?

Provided good construction, no.

m-heat 11-12-2010 08:07 AM

Posting mobil the link doesn't take me anyware.

m_vanmeter 11-12-2010 09:07 AM

basically no. As mentioned, well constructed interconnect cables do their job, whether you paid $5 or $500 a piece.

excellent place to buy quality cables minus any "snake oil" www.monoprice.com

Colm 11-12-2010 09:22 AM

Well, the capacitance of the cable is going to cause high frequencies to roll off. But the effect over short distances is not audible. If you have to run longer distances, you might want to consider low capacitance cables. Other than that, any well constructed cable should do. Doesn't even have to be coax. Doesn't have to be expensive.

ChrisWiggles 11-12-2010 10:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by m-heat View Post

After some time of buying into snakoil I and convinced speaker wire/power cables do not matter. I am wondering about RCA cables? Is there a difference there?

They can, but usually don't. The two issues are shielding and capacitance. Low capacitance can be important with long runs, and depending on the input/output impedances of the devices you're connecting, but most gear is made properly in that respect.

Shielding is important with unbalanced RCA runs because the only thing preventing noise from entering the cable is the shielding. How important this is depends on again the length of the run and how noisy the environment is.

Over short distances inside a rack, really any decent cable will be more than sufficient. For long distance, high-quality interconnects should be used, but they should be pro-grade, not snakeoil crap (which is actually usually WORSE than generic cheap stuff). If you really need the best, look to professional TP or coax from Belden, Canare, Mogami, etc.

A9X-308 11-12-2010 11:10 AM

^^^ What he said - sums it up very well.

2.ooohhh 11-12-2010 11:35 AM

I have a mix of Tera Labs, Mogami, and MIT interconnects, mostly hand me downs/trade-ins from studios I've helped reconfigure(often installing Mogami/Belden). I have determined that 99% of the systems out there are not transparent enough in thier amplification/reproduction to allow you to hear any difference in interconnects. My system with off the shelf Monitor 5s speakers and a B&K amp-I cannot for the life of me hear a difference. That said my primary listening room is my living room, has minimal acoustic treatment(only as much as the wife would allow) and an older pre-amp but it still works just fine for my purposes.

My father's reference setup is an entirely different story the MIT interconnects clearly made the highs seem brighter and more full, but to hear that difference you will not only increase the cost of the interconnects x10, the entirety of your system will need to be at the top of the performance range(not always tops price wise but usually not cheap either). Just getting into the acoustics and power conditioning these systems easily spend more than my entire "bargan basement" theater and that's before adding sources, pre-amps, and amplification into the mix.


Cliff's Notes-While there are slight difference in cabling (especially on long runs) most studios I've been in are wired with Mogami, or ocassionally Belden and work just fine.

Tara Labs and MIT cables as Reviewed by Stereophile Magazine
http://stereophile.com/cables/1206tara/

http://www.stereophile.com/cables/300mit/

geekhd 11-12-2010 11:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2.ooohhh View Post

I have a mix of Tera Labs, Mogami, and MIT interconnects, mostly hand me downs/trade-ins from studios I've helped reconfigure(often installing Mogami/Belden). I have determined that 99% of the systems out there are not transparent enough in thier amplification/reproduction to allow you to hear any difference in interconnects. My system with off the shelf Monitor 5s speakers and a B&K amp-I cannot for the life of me hear a difference. That said my primary listening room is my living room, has minimal acoustic treatment(only as much as the wife would allow) and an older pre-amp but it still works just fine for my purposes.

My father's reference setup is an entirely different story the MIT interconnects clearly made the highs seem brighter and more full, but to hear that difference you will not only increase the cost of the interconnects x10, the entirety of your system will need to be at the top of the performance range(not always tops price wise but usually not cheap either). Just getting into the acoustics and power conditioning these systems easily spend more than my entire "bargan basement" theater and that's before adding sources, pre-amps, and amplification into the mix.


Cliff's Notes-While there are slight difference in cabling (especially on long runs) most studios I've been in are wired with Mogami, or ocassionally Belden and work just fine.

Tara Labs and MIT cables as Reviewed by Stereophile Magazine
http://stereophile.com/cables/1206tara/

http://www.stereophile.com/cables/300mit/

As expected, it's just a matter of time before someone posting bunch of wild claims without evidence to back it up.

2.ooohhh 11-12-2010 12:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

As expected, it's just a matter of time before someone posting bunch of wild claims without evidence to back it up.


What exactly would you propose to have me do to "prove" a particular cable sounds better over the internet? I don't see anything I posted as being a "wild claim".

geekhd 11-12-2010 12:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2.ooohhh View Post

What exactly would you propose to have me do to "prove" a particular cable sounds better over the internet? I don't see anything I posted as being a "wild claim".

For someone who's not very well acquainted with this forum, a.k.a. new member, you owe it to yourself to read up on some discussions already posted on this forum regarding audio cables. I'll guarantee you that your questions quoted above will be addressed.

2.ooohhh 11-12-2010 12:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

For someone who's not very well acquainted with this forum, a.k.a. new member, you owe it to yourself to read up on some discussions already posted on this forum regarding audio cables. I'll guarantee you that your questions quoted above will be addressed.

Well I find it interesting you go strait to attacing the speaker rather than actually rubut the claim, I will however do my best to back my claim with solid evidence if I get a time over the weekend as well as look into the threads you mention as they sound like an interesting read.


Erik

Full disclosure- I do not have any stake in either company only cables from both that I was given for free when the owners replaced them with new models, I will simply attempt to compare them to the other interconnects I have laying around. (monoprice, monster, ect.)

ChrisWiggles 11-12-2010 12:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2.ooohhh View Post

What exactly would you propose to have me do to "prove" a particular cable sounds better over the internet? I don't see anything I posted as being a "wild claim".

It's called science.

You do a robust blinded listening test and determine whether there even are any differences.

No one has ever succeeded in doing that. Ever.

But this is America, where people are not taught any science in school, hence what we see here.

kgveteran 11-12-2010 01:06 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I use to sell audioquest cables. Solid silver for $1,200.00 meter pair.

Do they sound different, yes. Do they sound better, not sure.

Glad at least ten years have past, NY State.....statute of limitations on feleonies...Lol

2.ooohhh 11-12-2010 01:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

It's called science.

You do a robust blinded listening test and determine whether there even are any differences.

No one has ever succeeded in doing that. Ever.

But this is America, where people are not taught any science in school, hence what we see here.


Blind listening tests are generally flawed b/c what sounds better to me may sound worse to my wife and the same to you. I've seen grown "audiophiles" stand in CES booths in the middle of a trade show floor and claim the speakers currently in front of them as the best the've heard, with almost no way to actually tell what they sound like given the high noise floor of the enviroment. Other makers drag you off to a hotel room away from the convention where you can get a "proper listen" as if a random hotel suite in vegas is a "perfect listening enviroment".

I plan to take out my graphing digital labscope and compare the cables electrically to see it the "science" backs up what I remember subjectively hearing.

I learned plenty of science in school and understand very well the idea of evidence.

geekhd 11-12-2010 01:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2.ooohhh View Post

Blind listening tests are generally flawed b/c what sounds better to me may sound worse to my wife and the same to you.

I urge you to go right into the reading session I suggested before going any further on this. You'll be glad you did.

Tulpa 11-12-2010 01:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2.ooohhh View Post

Blind listening tests are generally flawed b/c what sounds better to me may sound worse to my wife and the same to you.

Which is why they never just have one person be the test listener.

Quote:


I've seen grown "audiophiles" stand in CES booths in the middle of a trade show floor and claim the speakers currently in front of them as the best the've heard, with almost no way to actually tell what they sound like given the high noise floor of the enviroment. Other makers drag you off to a hotel room away from the convention where you can get a "proper listen" as if a random hotel suite in vegas is a "perfect listening enviroment".

And neither of those examples are the testing environments the above posters are referring to.

htcritic 11-12-2010 01:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2.ooohhh View Post

Blind listening tests are generally flawed b/c what sounds better to me may sound worse to my wife and the same to you.

The argument is not that blind listening tests are flawed because what sounds good to somebody doesn't sound good to somebody else. The argument is that nobody can tell any difference at all, let alone prefer one of those non-existant differences.

Nobody can differentiate between well constructed inter-connects in a level matched, blind listening test. Nobody. If you disagree, post a single, verifiable instance of anybody ever haveing done so.

Until somebody, anybody, can post such evidence, there really isn't anything to argue about. And as has been suggested, any cursory search of this site will turn up hundreds of threads along this same subject. As if you didn't know

2.ooohhh 11-12-2010 01:36 PM

Are there any particular threads you reccomend?


I'm not dead set one way or the other as I have no real investment in the cables or any ideals it's not like I paid list for them and don't want to eat the loss. I just know what I heard over at dad's, never heard the difference on my setup and figured it was b/c my gear wasn't up to snuff, and I don't have the budget for much nicer nor room to dedicate a whole room to listening so I never took it any further. Now my curiosity is piqued and I happen to find myself with a wonderful assortment of different cables to test.

Worst case I hand you a few more pages of data damning expensive cables, and have to fish those silly boxes built into the most inconvient places on the MIT cables out of my rack.

CharlesJ 11-12-2010 09:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2.ooohhh View Post
...I have determined that 99% of the systems out there are not transparent enough in thier amplification/reproduction to allow you to hear any difference in interconnects.
And how transparent must it be? Please provide lots of details.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2.ooohhh View Post
My father's reference setup is an entirely different story the MIT interconnects clearly made the highs seem brighter and more full, but to hear that difference you will not only increase the cost of the interconnects x10, the entirety of your system will need to be at the top of the performance range(not always tops price wise but usually not cheap either). Just getting into the acoustics and power conditioning these systems easily spend more than my entire "bargan basement" theater and that's before adding sources, pre-amps, and amplification into the mix.
And how was that test that clearly showed a difference performed? Details of the test would be nice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 2.ooohhh View Post
Tara Labs and MIT cables as Reviewed by Stereophile Magazine
http://stereophile.com/cables/1206tara/

http://www.stereophile.com/cables/300mit/
What is that supposed to be? A testimonial? Or, did they offer solid evidence that these make an audible difference?

CharlesJ 11-12-2010 09:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post
I use to sell audioquest cables. Solid silver for $1,200.00 meter pair.

Do they sound different, yes. Do they sound better, not sure.
...
And how was that determined?

CharlesJ 11-12-2010 09:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2.ooohhh View Post
.... I just know what I heard over at dad's, never heard the difference on my setup and figured it was b/c my gear wasn't up to snuff, ...:
No, you perceived something there and at your place. Without proper testing, who knows what it was. The human psychology and the brain is such that hearing and perception are two different things. Subconscious biases are tricky. Never know when the brain and it is confusing you. Multiple senses, hearing and seeing at the same time(knowing what you are comparing at any one time) can play great tricks on a person and cannot be anticipated when or controlled.
This is why a good DBT must be performed if one want real answers. It is the gold standard when a human is the test subject, the instrument trying to measure or detect.

ChrisWiggles 11-13-2010 12:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2.ooohhh View Post
Blind listening tests are generally flawed b/c what sounds better to me may sound worse to my wife and the same to you.
Clearly you're not understanding the purpose of the test.

The entire purpose of the test is merely to determine whether there are ANY audible differences that can be perceived by ANY listener.

A legitimate and robust positive result from ANY listener, regardless of their subjective preference, is significant.

And that has never happened over short distances with reasonable cabling. Ever.


Quote:
I plan to take out my graphing digital labscope and compare the cables electrically to see it the "science" backs up what I remember subjectively hearing.

I learned plenty of science in school and understand very well the idea of evidence.
Then you should understand that you have provided no evidence of anything at all.

Sitting down and asking yourself "gee do I think I hear a difference?" is as determinative as playing a quick game of Sudoko. It is nothing more than a curious mental exercise.

And keep in mind that I am an unabashed believer that cables absolutely CAN make a difference in all kinds of situations. The question is WHEN, HOW, and why they do. And over most short distances they matter not a hoot.

Bigus 11-13-2010 12:49 AM

I think 2.ooohhh has displayed a very open mind to the idea that perhaps what seems to make a difference actually isn't. Hats off. Most people that wander into a discussion like this new to the forum get their panties in a wad because they, or their dad, or their friend, or whoever bought some expensive cables and they feel obligated to defend the idea that it wasn't money wasted.

Sounds like you have a decent technical background, which probably helps and is likely why you were willing to entertain the idea that scientific testing might actually be useful. As others pointed out above, the really surprising point to many is that no one can tell any difference, let alone pick out A or B as being superior. Your oscope test will be revealing... even subtle electrical differences are exceedingly difficult to detect in well designed cables (note: many expensive boutique cables are not so well designed and their linear distortion might be more easily detected). And your oscope is orders of magnitude more sensitive than the human ear at distinguishing those differences.

Heads up though... while you might have your curiosity piqued and after reading are convinced in the unavoidable logic of science, don't expect your dad to be a convert. Not easily, probably never. At the dinner table, don't discuss religion, politics, or subjective audio topics.

Hughman 11-13-2010 07:32 AM

Not sure why during tests the focus is on listening for audio level differences when imo another, potentially, more predictable and repeatable method of ascertaining differences, if any, is available. I'm talking about imaging, placement of sounds within the soundstage is something which can be determined and marked with near pin point accuracy for reference purposes and from my experience is something which is far more stable and repeatable than attempting to hear and explain the causes for changes in sound quality. If a cable changes the signal is a non-linear manner I'd expect it to show up in that area so if someone is looking for a headache and wished to to do more scientific testing on the matter that would be the angle I'd approach it from first.

m-heat 11-13-2010 08:28 AM

Thanks all. I kind'a knew that my question was going to get this kind if reaction but I really wanted to know. So thanks again.

WilliamZX11 11-13-2010 09:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

Not sure why during tests the focus is on listening for audio level differences when imo another, potentially, more predictable and repeatable method of ascertaining differences, if any, is available. I'm talking about imaging, placement of sounds within the soundstage is something which can be determined and marked with near pin point accuracy for reference purposes and from my experience is something which is far more stable and repeatable than attempting to hear and explain the causes for changes in sound quality. If a cable changes the signal is a non-linear manner I'd expect it to show up in that area so if someone is looking for a headache and wished to to do more scientific testing on the matter that would be the angle I'd approach it from first.

Who says the focus is on audio level differences? A well done DBT will always be level matched. Although you'd need a pretty poor cable to attenuate the signal.

While I disagree that the human ear can determine those things you mention with "pin point" accuracy, I don't see why you couldn't listen for anything you want in a DBT. Good luck being the first to demonstrate the ability to hear differences in wire of the proper gauge.

Hughman 11-13-2010 09:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

Good luck being the first to demonstrate the ability to hear differences in wire of the proper gauge.

Won't be me, I'm way past the point of really caring. That would be my approach though, physical markers at least exclude memory from the equation.

WilliamZX11 11-13-2010 09:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

Won't be me, I'm way past the point of really caring.

Way past the point of caring? Why is it that those that just don't care, still feel compelled to comment? Odd...


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:59 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.