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post #61 of 79 Old 10-12-2019, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papamiraculi View Post
As stated somewhere above I have the same problem.
What I have found out so far is this:

It has nothing to do with Amps or Receivers. I have tried four different manufacturers. No change.

Room acoustics are part of the problem, as slight room treatment (basetraps, absorbers) have made it easier to listen to music.

Apart from that, even changing the room (I moved two years ago) didnt solve the problem.

Im having most of my problems with bass. After getting rid of my shelf speaker and subwoofer combo and buying a full range standing speaker it improved a lot. I dont use a sub anymore.

Speaker placement in the room is crucial. Its a matter off centimenters but sometimes there is a huge difference in only 1-2cm.

Decent room correction helps, too. I now use Audyssey XT, the new version which lets you do changes via the app.
For stereo a good parametric equalizer should be fine, too.

I can now listen to music again comfortably. From time to time I get the problems again (cant explain why). Then I just switch off. The next day it can be good again without having changed anything. Very strange. I also suspected the power grid itself, but since I have moved without any change that doesnt make sense anymore.

I also highly suspect that we are hypersensitive to a certain frequency and/or phase differnces (which by themselves can boost/kill frequencies).
New, better speakers (and maybe even new wires, if you beleive so) probably reproduce the given frequency better, which makes it sound better but also causes our problems.

Try some of the suggestion above. Id start with the equalizer.
The problem is after every change you have to wait until the pain dissolves to see if it is any better.
This is VERY helpful! All of your experiences!
The room/house exchange (power supply exchange) and amp exchange you've mentioned.
The more we speak about, the more I think the frequency (over)sensitivity is to blame.

In my story: The exchange of the wire changed muddyness in my Sony's speaker's bass and bass had suddenly much more definition and slightly more impact and punch (much better sound, so to say). As same it was with any new speakers, because everything was better with bass than my old-wired Sony's. Once when my friend said that I have very subtle, tiny bass in my audio system. So maybe that's why I can tolerate it? Almost no bass? Some frequencies silenced? So equalizer and basstraps might help to improve the total sound without hurting my ears. But still, even if it helps it does not mean everything is normal with me and my setup.

Any tips on good equalizer to plug in to my Denon? It has only manual corrections, sadly. And the DAC is built in.
I could replace it to solve my problem, but I love the way it reproduces vocals and... you know.

I know from app at my phone that I have 60-100 Hz frequvency emphasized in my room and that speaker's I've failed with had it slightly more that my old-wired Sony's. But my old-wired Sony's never hurted me. And the difference at new speakers I've tested was not so huge and obvious to blame all problems at it at the first glance. Or, better to say, noone in audio industry blames bass for hurting ears so dramatically. But I never had a sub because I never miss any loud bass i my system...

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Last edited by Greywolfin; 10-12-2019 at 09:58 AM.
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post #62 of 79 Old 10-12-2019, 12:40 PM
 
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If it's oversensitivity to bass make sure you have switched off loudness. And turn down the bass.

If the pain really goes away with less or without bass, then you are on the right path and making the room's bass sound better, could be the next step. But first I would check, if turning the bass down, changes anything.
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post #63 of 79 Old 10-12-2019, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
Reading your interesting comment I find it even more outrageous, that I received an infraction from the forum moderation and that my comment in the 140dB bass-insanity thread was deleted, because I warned of ear damage due to low frequencies. My comment contained a link to a study, that showed that low frequencies can be dangerous, too. Deleted!


I find this all so outrageous how the hifi-industry and it's PR outlets keep consumers in the dark what is really necessary for a good sound.
I think the people struggling in this thread are sensitive to certain frequencies, as they mentioned earlier. On the subject of extreme SPL levels, tribal knowledge in the club scene is that you get acclimated to bass and high output levels. At first everything seems super loud, but your body normalizes you to it after a while of spending a lot of time in nightclubs. It's not all hearing loss, because the normalization happens much faster than that. It happens in a few months of regular weekend visits. When I see people in here in tiny rooms with stacks of subwoofers running extremely hot (not all of them are using those subs for output, some for smoothness or low distortion), I think of that experience in the nightclubs. I think it's the same thing where you get someone that buys subs that can easily go well above reference in their room, yet they end up buying two more or something bigger. Some of it is just that you get used to extreme SPL and it doesn't feel crazy to you anymore.

Anyways, this thread is super interesting because is really shows how different humans have different sensitivities. I hope everyone in this thread found a comfy way to listen!
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post #64 of 79 Old 10-13-2019, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
Is that sarcasm?
Where is all that nonsense coming from?!


Ears do not get acclimated to higher SPL levels! It's the brain that acclimates, but the organ = ears are still overexposed.
Therefore hearing loss does not need to happen at a certain moment, or immediately. If it doesn't happen now, it will happen later. But it will happen.
I think just a misunderstanding, because we are saying the same thing. I'm trying to say you get "used" to the high SPLs, but they still do the same damage. This can lead people down a path of not thinking they need hearing protection.
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post #65 of 79 Old 10-23-2019, 08:13 AM
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Update for my case - for everybody having similar problems and no solutions and answers:
(stereo speakers + Denon stereo receiver, no sub):

16 days, I kept my TV sounds quite silent, cut down music to almost none. Pain slowly diminished, sometimes went and go. But I felt better. I unplugged Denon for safety and mostly run plain TV speakers those 16 days when watch TV shortly. Tinnitus kept little lover but still audible. I was slowly going insane without my music and games, to be honest.

Yesterday, I listened my old (non-problematic) stereo setup when gaming on PS4 on quite normal volume level (45-60 decibels) and time duration (3-4 hours). Pain and tinnitus returned with such a vice that I was not able to get asleep even at 4 am and I was afraid to simply take painkillers.

At hospital today, my audio tests were weird, I didn't hear everything in high frequencies with right ear and I returned home with medicine for tinnitus, Meniére disease and high dosage of Prednison.
Doctor either does not know what to do with me (she gave me medicine but she had no answers) or she does not believe I'm not listening loud. She said to turn the volume down. I replied that I can't simply live in complete silence for the rest of my life!
I need to understand what happened and how to prevent and minimalise risks for the future! She said they will transfer me to another doctor who is more specialised. I called migraine center to make me an appointment too, just to be sure. Because I had hypersensitivity to sound with migraines. I was not there for a long time because we found a solution that works to stop my migraines.

Everything is too loud again, city traffic on my way home was unbearable. If I had to travel there for work everyday I would not be able! (I work from home in quiet countryside).

Any opinions?
I can't try another amp now or in the near future and Denon's warranty ends in January. What would you do? Send it to factory in wild guess or do you think it's clearly my condition?
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post #66 of 79 Old 10-23-2019, 10:03 AM
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Neurologist, MRI, CAT scan.
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post #67 of 79 Old 10-23-2019, 03:57 PM
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Clearly, you need to continue to see medical personnel until you get a real answer. Can't fix a problem if it is not known. All you are treating now are the symptoms. Good luck to you and keep at it until you get some answers.

Also, please ignore the know-it-all jerks on this site.
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post #68 of 79 Old 10-23-2019, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glegiehn View Post
Any thoughts? I want to talk to the installer from the standpoint of at least knowing a little bit of what I'm dealing with.
The first thing that comes to mind is that maybe the geometry of the rectangular room layout, combined with your speaker orientation, is causing standing sound waves to form that accentuate some harmonics. For the poster who had similar issues with Def Techs, that might also be explained by the Def Techs being bipolar speakers with drivers front and rear that could accentuate standing waves in some rooms versus traditional speakers that have only front drivers.

A few questions:

1. Have you tried toeing in the speakers so they are pointing diagonally across the room instead of being perpendicular? That would change the sound wave patterns, so it would probably help if the problem is standing waves

2. Does the problem persist if you move your viewing/listening position significantly away from your normal position where you feel pain? If the pain is still there in a different position, then it's more likely frequency related (ultrasonic) rather than speaker/room interaction accentuating harmonics.

3. Have you tried going into EQ and turning off all frequencies above 12k or so?

4. Is the room sealed? Does it persist with the door open.

Last edited by pjp; 10-23-2019 at 08:19 PM.
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post #69 of 79 Old 10-23-2019, 05:43 PM
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Maybe I missed a previous post but... do you have the same problems with headphones?
If so, you can probably eliminate speakers, amp, room acoustics, etc...
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post #70 of 79 Old 10-24-2019, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Neurologist, MRI, CAT scan.
Yes, see a brain doctor and get your head scanned. If the ENT can't figure out the cause, it could be neurological, and generally speaking, it's never a good sign. All it takes is a little extra pressure in the wrong place and the brain goes haywire. And the pressure can be from anything (but in general none of the causes are good for you).

And better to do it while it's an annoying thing before it's too late to do anything, or a massive seizure happens.
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post #71 of 79 Old 11-01-2019, 05:08 AM
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Old school stereo guy here. I had a similar problem years ago. I have always used speakers with the “east coast” sound, Advent, Boston Acoustics. I have read how great original JBLs are. Pick up a mint pair and the ear pain started. Sold the JBLs, problem gone. My ears prefer the east coast high end roll off.

I love this HD stuff!
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post #72 of 79 Old 11-02-2019, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by lastplace View Post
Old school stereo guy here. I had a similar problem years ago. I have always used speakers with the “east coast” sound, Advent, Boston Acoustics. I have read how great original JBLs are. Pick up a mint pair and the ear pain started. Sold the JBLs, problem gone. My ears prefer the east coast high end roll off.
I had a problem years ago as well. After re-arranging some gear (same gear I'd used for several years) and re-running Audyssey XT32 my wife and I both experienced discomfort regardless of volume or the source. We both had the same experience so that all but eliminated a medical issue.

It was a building pressure similar to changes in altitude and eventually our ears would "pop" as they do on a plane. It did not sound bad or harsh - it sounded pretty darn good. Except for the physical discomfort there was no sign of anything wrong. It only took a minute or so for it to materialize after turning on any source. This persisted through numerous re-runs of Audyssey and resulted in tinnitus for me. Fortunately it was not permanent for my wife but I'm stuck with it so BE CAREFUL. PROTECT YOUR EARS.

I swapped the towers out for bookshelves, ran without subs, dropped down from 7.2 to 2.0 - nothing worked. I gave up and went back to tv speakers for weeks, got brave - re-ran Audyssey and repeated that for several months. Eventually I eliminated the problem by keeping my mic placements within 18" of each other and got back to the 7.2 with the towers and subs all playing nice together.

I'm not blaming Audyssey because after the problem arose it didn't matter whether Audyssey was on or off but it was worse with Audyssey engaged. It's possible there was an issue with the proc and one of numerous factory resets may have made a difference. Other than that I can only guess that some interaction of my gear placement, room acoustics and Audyssey resulted in some ultra or infra sonic weirdness that neither of us could tolerate or like I stated, perhaps the Proc was glitching and one of the resets had an effect.

It mystifies me to this day and even though I have since changed out the processor I am still nervous every time I change gear or positioning and have to re-run Audyssey but I still use it and since resolving the issue I've actually used Dynamic EQ occasionally (even on the old proc) which I could never tolerate even before the problem. I am happily running 9.3 with Audyssey with no ill effects - except I'm stuck with the tinnitus.

I doubt this is helpful but wanted to share my experience. It was a months long situation and I sympathize for any of us "addicted" that run into similar scenarios.

Good Luck
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post #73 of 79 Old 11-02-2019, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glegiehn View Post
I had a brand new set up professionally installed in my basement three weeks ago. Here's the gear:<br><br>
5.1 Setup: Denon AVR-3311CI, Bowers and Wilkins Front: CM9 x2, Center: CMC2 Rear: CCM662 x2, Velodyne SC-1250 with 2x SC-IW subs, Monitor: Sharp LC-52D92U, Blue Ray Denon DBP-2012UDCI, Motorola DCT3416 I cablebox<br><br>
Upon listening for about 10-15 minutes I notice a tense sensation in my ears that builds and builds to become pain and a sensation of fullness or ear popping. I find myself having to gradually increase the volume over time to be able to strain to hear. Once finished watching/listening, the sensation lasts for hours before finally going away. Putting the receiver setup on direct or pure direct helps somewhat but it's still a problem. Engaging Audessey EQ or other EQs makes it worse. It happens at all volumes. I know speakers need to be broken in, but it's been a few weeks and the problem isn't going away. At first it was just me, but now my wife is noticing it too.<br><br>
Any thoughts? I want to talk to the installer from the standpoint of at least knowing a little bit of what I'm dealing with.
I posted earlier this am about the fullness/popping. It had been a week or so since I read your original post. I had forgotten how similar your experience is to mine. I thought it ironic and worth mentioning that I was also running B&W speakers. 803s and htm3s front 3, and when I switched speakers I went back to my 602 S2's and LCR60. I was using an Integra DHC 9.9 proc with Rotel amplification and a pair of SVS cylinder subs. I also used the SVS ASEQ1 (essentially the first iteration of Audyssey Bass EQ in a stand alone device).

Given the similarity of symptoms I thought it was worth mentioning we used the same brand of speakers. This is probably irrelevant but having been in your shoes I'm going to mention it anyway. B&W (and other speaker makers) sometimes (intentionally) wire the midrange driver out of phase. I'm not savvy enough to figure out whether this could interfere with Audyssey's measurements/results but my 803 S were among those with that configuration. You would think if this is the source of the issue it would be common knowledge by now but.....Just throwing this out there in case someone more knowledgeable might offer an opinion.
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post #74 of 79 Old 11-10-2019, 05:57 AM
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Whenever ear issues arise i.e. tinnitus, hyperacusis (sensitivity/appearance of louder sound than it is) a threshold shift, sudden hearing loss, vertigo, with or without migraine, vision issues ... one of the first things to rule out is an acoustic neuroma. This is a noncancerous tumor located on the main nerve leading from the inner ear to the brain. The sooner these are caught the better because Tumor removal is very complex and invasive due to the location. One of the tests used for diagnosis is an MRI with contrast. It’s important to note that if one experiences ear issues during or after listening to a theater or stereo system: yes, the sound experienced may be the sole cause/trigger of the symptoms OR it may be an underlying issue that has been brought to the surface rapidly due to the acoustic stimuli.

Of course, as often the case, it may not be a tumor and such symptoms can be from countless origins, i.e. an inner ear virus, vascular anomaly, hearing damage, Ménière’s disease, etc... or the origin may never be found (idiopathic). One common denominator, rest those ears until given full medical clearance. Note, I am not a doctor, nor should this be deemed medical advice.

If hyper detailed speakers are the culprit or are making those with ear issues worse, then those with rolled off highs and warm-ish sound work best i.e. Dali, Vienna Acoustics, Sonus Faber, even the old Cambridge soundworks with the silk domes. If bass is the culprit, as others mentioned, just turn it down or do without a dedicated subwoofer.
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post #75 of 79 Old 11-21-2019, 10:57 AM
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Update, 1 and half month from the incident - changing cables from copper to silver/copper with same speakers, same amp:

I have no permanent hearing damage.

My hearing was fully restored at all frequencies 2 weeks after I took Prednison, Betaserc and Tebokan. Relief was immediate with constanct improvement. To everyone facing such long term problems (constant fullness in ears, pain, hyperacusis) - go to doctors, take meds! It will bring quick relief and chance for quicker healing. There are some excercises for eustachian tube available to see at youtube, they helped too.
Tinnitus is back on those very mild noise levels I've always had my whole life. So the nasty loud levels developed after incident are gone. BERA test returned with normal results.
MRI is planned for January to check totally everything. I demanded it, they did not offer MRI to me (edit - meaning) but they did not refuse when asked. My insurance will cover it.
Doctors said they are able to find NOTHING wrong with me. Last doctor saw my bag with logo of my favorite band so we even had perfect conversation about music and reproduction of it. He tried to help a lot. But he said he see no medical reason for what happened to me.

Last 3 weeks I used TV speakers, sounds are no problem anymore. I visited one loud reproduction few days ago at pub, I was careful and it had no effect on me.
---

So I'm back at the mystery of what is truly wrong in my room and my setup.
I do not wish to test anything new now, it's too soon. But I can think about it.

I realised one thing. I saw membranes of my speakers VIBRATE A LOT when (problematic, hurt me) silver/copper cables were connected. They never visibly vibrated when I use copper cable (no problems for me for several years). Is it normal, to have such difference at same loudness and same speakers? (55-60 decibels max). Suggesting maybe a problem with amp?

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Last edited by Greywolfin; 11-21-2019 at 11:55 AM.
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post #76 of 79 Old 11-21-2019, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Maybe I missed a previous post but... do you have the same problems with headphones?
If so, you can probably eliminate speakers, amp, room acoustics, etc...
I used a lot of headphones brands when I was younger and commuting to university everyday. Never any problems.
I used 3 brands of gaming headphones last year, each about 3 to 9 hours in total, no problem.

I remember being uncomfortable with Sonus Faber Chameleon tower speakers shortly auditioned in my room 2 or 3 years ago.
I looked up in documents and find out it was powered with Cambridge Audio CXA80 then, so it was not my Denon(!)
But it was also connected with silver Audioquest cables. Exchange to silver cables in my setup improved the sound a lot and hurted me so badly recently.

So, every time I had problems, cables were not pure copper. Weird and even more weird.
Could some (unhearable but hurting) harmonics distortion be transfered from electricity through amp, boosted by different cables? Silver cables are considered clearer in reproduction I believe.

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post #77 of 79 Old 11-21-2019, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjp View Post
The first thing that comes to mind is that maybe the geometry of the rectangular room layout, combined with your speaker orientation, is causing standing sound waves to form that accentuate some harmonics. For the poster who had similar issues with Def Techs, that might also be explained by the Def Techs being bipolar speakers with drivers front and rear that could accentuate standing waves in some rooms versus traditional speakers that have only front drivers.

A few questions:

1. Have you tried toeing in the speakers so they are pointing diagonally across the room instead of being perpendicular? That would change the sound wave patterns, so it would probably help if the problem is standing waves

2. Does the problem persist if you move your viewing/listening position significantly away from your normal position where you feel pain? If the pain is still there in a different position, then it's more likely frequency related (ultrasonic) rather than speaker/room interaction accentuating harmonics.

3. Have you tried going into EQ and turning off all frequencies above 12k or so?

4. Is the room sealed? Does it persist with the door open.
I've tried almost everything during my problems.

1. Toeing or moving speakers from wall did not matter.
2. Listening position did not matter. Sometimes I sit near, sometimes and the end of the room.
3. I think reducing bass helped, but did not solved it. I have only stereo with basics EQ, no sofisticated programs.
4. Open/closed doors, window - did not change anything. Coverage of the windows by heavy curtains improve the quality of the sound, but that's all.

Denon PMA-1600NE + Sony SS-A590
Samsung QE65Q9FN / previously Samsung UE65KS8002T
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post #78 of 79 Old 11-21-2019, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greywolfin View Post
I have no permanent hearing damage.

My hearing was fully restored at all frequencies 2 weeks after I took Prednison, Betaserc and Tebokan. Relief was immediate with constanct improvement. To everyone facing such long term problems (constant fullness in ears, pain, hyperacusis) - go to doctors, take meds!
My problems are back. Out of nothing without any apparent reason. I litterally havent changed ANYTHING.
It had been fine for about a year, but now its terrible. I even developed a slight tinnitus on my right ear, along with constant yet slight "pressure pain" (for lack of a better word to describe it). Sidenote: My father has had tinnitus for years, maybe its genetical.

How did you manage to get medication when your doctors couldnt find anything?
My doctors said they couldnt give me meds since there was no diagnosis.

Anyways, I'm heading to the doctors on Monday again. Maybe they can find something now that it is acute.

Thanks for your update, I will keep you updated as well.
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post #79 of 79 Old 11-22-2019, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by papamiraculi View Post
My problems are back. ...............
My doctors said they couldnt give me meds since there was no diagnosis.
I'm very sorry to hear you have problems again. Fingers crossed for you!

I described pain, clogger ears and problems when visited hospital at first. I was at large city hospital. Doctor saw nothing by otoscope but sent me to timpano (test of hearing loss at different frequencies). There was measurable loss of 30 decibels at high frequencies, and it was worse in the ear where tinnitus was worse. So they saw and had proof that something is wrong - but they never find out what it was or what caused it. Ask about such test.

Tebokan is a new drug for tinnitus.
Betaserc might prevent hearing loss by making more blood running through the damaged areas, it's used for Meniere disease to prevent and revert hearing loss, I believe. And shortly after I took it I felt better. Ask about it.

Later, I was at timpano again, I was not fully ok, but the hearing loss was gone.

Also, this is a gold:
It helped me so much!

Good luck! Write what's new, please!

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