Does GIK acoustic panel + Auralex foam suiting my room.? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 13 Old 12-09-2011, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
mks_95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jeddah
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have almost square room (11 x 11.6 x 9.6h) which is terrible for HT ..my room wall is made of concrete, so there are plenty of frequencies being reflected.. the room is mainly for movies and hip/hop music,, my budget for doing acoustic treatment is 1000$..


The idea is to start treating my room step by step starting with:

*Auralex Subdude HD for my sub...> don't laugh it's just a beginning..
*Auralex Studiofoam Designer Kit Charcoal Gray (cost 59$) to handel HF (barely )..
*GIK acoustic panel room kit (cost between 500$ to 1000$) to handle MF/LF..


Although i didn't like what i read about auralex foam but i think it would be a good step to start with..


More info you may need:
#my speaker are 7.1 polk audio 2x RTi A9.. 4x surr FXi A6 (bipole/dipole).. subwoofer Sunfire HRS-12..
#All things going to be bought through online store due to lack of agencies stores in my country..
mks_95 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 13 Old 12-10-2011, 01:22 AM
 
dragonfyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 719
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Just a few comments...

The primary problem you will experience will be with LF room modes. Use Room EQ Wizard to generate waterfall plots to identify the modal pattern.

I would seriously suggest you begin with 'pink fluffy' fiberglass 'superchunk' style vertical corner traps* as well as with corner traps around the 4 ceiling/wall junctions. I would also face the bass traps with no thinner than a 6 mil plastic face in order to make the trap frequency selective - to absorb the LF and to retain the mid and high frequency energy in the room.

And then, after all of the room treatment is complete, I would follow that with and identification of the remaining LF anomalies and use RoomEQWizard to establish EQ filters to further address the remaining LF issues below 80 Hz.



As far as the walls being concrete, the only issue they exacerbate is the LF modal response - as the y are massive enough to reflect all of the high energy content LF energy. As far as specular reflections above the modal region, their behavior will be effectively the same as for any other reflective surface.

For this behavior, the use of the ETC response will identify the precise paths of any high gain early (or late) reflections. And from this information, you can easily employ absorptive panels to treat the ACTUAL high gain reflections.

The most cost effective treatment for specular energy would be fiberglass or rockwool panels. Making a framed broadband absorptive panel is extremely simple and cost effective. For broad band absorbent panels, the best material density characteristics are either ~3lb/ft^3 Fiberglass or ~4 lb/ft^3 mineral wool.

And the minimum configuration that should be considered for a broadband panel is 4" thick with a 4" boundary gap. (Any thinner and the effective low frequency extension suffers. In other words, they are effective against high frequencies but their absorptive ability does not extend low enough to address all of the reflected problem energy.)

This configuration effectively behaves similarly to an 8” thick panels placed flush to the wall.

Forget the foam. It simply does not present the same value equation in terms of effectiveness per unit cost compared to Fiberglass or Rockwool.

And I would not simply proceed to allocate the preponderance of your funds for broadband panels, as the modal response will constitute the preponderance of the immediate room problems.

Instead, you will want to ONLY surgically use the fewest broadband panels necessary to treat ONLY the REAL high gain focused reflections, and not simply apply them as one's intuition, imagination or a mirror may dictate that will simply result in a dead room.

Thus, the balance of the attention to the room will be easily 3/4 towards the modal behavior, and the remaining 1/4 for specular control.


* Superchunk traps that have 2' wall interfaces and an ~34" face filled with fluffed 'pink fluffy' fiberglass - generally employed insulation used for attics that has been fluffed for maximum loft.
dragonfyr is offline  
post #3 of 13 Old 12-10-2011, 09:12 AM
Member
 
someoledude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 132
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 22
I used a combination of GIK Tri Traps in the front corners and 4 GIK 244s on the back wall due to its irregular shape not lending itself to corner traps. I also have a 2" thick 24"x48" Sensible Sound Solution panel at each 1st reflection point. My two subwoofers each are on SubDudes. I am pleased with the outcome, though my room is a more traditional rectangle (13 x 22) and I am only running a 5.2. I was thinking GIK room package #3 for you if you don't want the do it yourself approach. They do a nice job with the fabrics to make the traps more decorative.
someoledude is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 13 Old 12-10-2011, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
mks_95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jeddah
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
busy day
i'll be back for more discussion regarding your mentioned information and comments.. many thanks to dragonfyr for his spectacular info, also for someoledude .. i will post some pics to keep you informed later on..
mks_95 is offline  
post #5 of 13 Old 12-11-2011, 11:25 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
mks_95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jeddah
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonfyr View Post

Just a few comments...

The primary problem you will experience will be with LF room modes. Use Room EQ Wizard to generate waterfall plots to identify the modal pattern.

I would seriously suggest you begin with 'pink fluffy' fiberglass 'superchunk' style vertical corner traps* as well as with corner traps around the 4 ceiling/wall junctions. I would also face the bass traps with no thinner than a 6 mil plastic face in order to make the trap frequency selective - to absorb the LF and to retain the mid and high frequency energy in the room.

And then, after all of the room treatment is complete, I would follow that with and identification of the remaining LF anomalies and use RoomEQWizard to establish EQ filters to further address the remaining LF issues below 80 Hz.



As far as the walls being concrete, the only issue they exacerbate is the LF modal response - as the y are massive enough to reflect all of the high energy content LF energy. As far as specular reflections above the modal region, their behavior will be effectively the same as for any other reflective surface.

For this behavior, the use of the ETC response will identify the precise paths of any high gain early (or late) reflections. And from this information, you can easily employ absorptive panels to treat the ACTUAL high gain reflections.

The most cost effective treatment for specular energy would be fiberglass or rockwool panels. Making a framed broadband absorptive panel is extremely simple and cost effective. For broad band absorbent panels, the best material density characteristics are either ~3lb/ft^3 Fiberglass or ~4 lb/ft^3 mineral wool.

And the minimum configuration that should be considered for a broadband panel is 4" thick with a 4" boundary gap. (Any thinner and the effective low frequency extension suffers. In other words, they are effective against high frequencies but their absorptive ability does not extend low enough to address all of the reflected problem energy.)

This configuration effectively behaves similarly to an 8 thick panels placed flush to the wall.

Forget the foam. It simply does not present the same value equation in terms of effectiveness per unit cost compared to Fiberglass or Rockwool.

And I would not simply proceed to allocate the preponderance of your funds for broadband panels, as the modal response will constitute the preponderance of the immediate room problems.

Instead, you will want to ONLY surgically use the fewest broadband panels necessary to treat ONLY the REAL high gain focused reflections, and not simply apply them as one's intuition, imagination or a mirror may dictate that will simply result in a dead room.

Thus, the balance of the attention to the room will be easily 3/4 towards the modal behavior, and the remaining 1/4 for specular control.


* Superchunk traps that have 2' wall interfaces and an ~34" face filled with fluffed 'pink fluffy' fiberglass - generally employed insulation used for attics that has been fluffed for maximum loft.

first of all i would like to thank you for your efforts and for such informative feedback you gave..

as for the main issue exactly as you said its concerning the LF as priority and i will use room EQ software but not right now cause my room ain't ready.. i was living once in such small room like this before, and my 4 surround speakers which they are bipole/dipole (totall of 8 tweeters in them) i couldn't live with their bright tone (regardless polk audio bright sound) i mean HF bouncing around with no absorbers to catch.. do you think the auralex foam would help me in the HF matter from my 4 speakers i mean in the treatment, or it's going to be inrelevant since i'm going to handel LF with acoustic panel.. the auralex are 32 pieces and for what i know,,room mode " live\\dead " is depending on how HF\\MF look like, so i feel maybe it will absorb too much of HF alongside with broadband panel..

about (pink fluffy fiberglass) we don't have a professional warehouse like you have, so i can't do any DIY because of lack of material and resources.. if you have a link for a retailer just inform me, cause i've searched in amazon and ebay and couldn't fine one..


Quote:
Originally Posted by someoledude View Post

I used a combination of GIK Tri Traps in the front corners and 4 GIK 244s on the back wall due to its irregular shape not lending itself to corner traps. I also have a 2" thick 24"x48" Sensible Sound Solution panel at each 1st reflection point. My two subwoofers each are on SubDudes. I am pleased with the outcome, though my room is a more traditional rectangle (13 x 22) and I am only running a 5.2. I was thinking GIK room package #3 for you if you don't want the do it yourself approach. They do a nice job with the fabrics to make the traps more decorative.

as they say where the body goes, the mind follows.. and i missed the tri trap.!! maybe i was foucsing too much in room kit#1 .. i will definitely consider the tri trap if i couldn't fined what dragonfyr suggested, and maybe i'll start with them ..
mks_95 is offline  
post #6 of 13 Old 12-12-2011, 03:23 AM
 
dragonfyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 719
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Having no information on the specific marketplace in Saudi Arabia where you are located, its difficult to point you to a specific source of fiberglass insulation.

Generally speaking you will not find it on Amazon or EBay!

You WILL find it at industrial building supply distributors who distribute it to its primary market - the construction trade who use it for thermal insulation in buildings. You might want to change your search process accordingly. Do not expect them to have any idea of its use for acoustic purposes. We are essentially taking advantage of the economies of scale afforded by a product that is manufactured primarily for thermal insulation and using it for acoustic purposes. This will also be an important factor to consider when inquiring about the materials.

As far as 'brightness'. If you have an over emphasis on high frequencies, then you equalize the gain of the direct signal that comes out of the speakers. Such imbalance has little to do with the number of tweeters or how much sound is bouncing about. You must treat the source. Treatment will not reduce this characteristic - but improper treatment can certainly exacerbate it in a negative manner.

On the other hand, if you are referring to 'liveliness', that is a function of the gain of the first significant energy return after the arrival of the direct signal. The greater the gain of the first significant reflection, the more 'live' the room will sound. Many people will enter a room and clap their hands and proceed to make evaluations incorrectly confusing this behavior with reverberation.

Also, the time differential between the arrival of the direct signal and the first significant reflection determines how 'large' or spacious the room seems.

Both of these last two qualities, liveliness and spaciousness, can be adjusted with appropriate treatment. And in both cases this behavior can be quantified via the use of the ETC response.
dragonfyr is offline  
post #7 of 13 Old 12-12-2011, 03:33 AM
 
dragonfyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 719
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Also, regarding overly bright surrounds...

You would either want to replace them with speakers featuring a more neutral (balanced) frequency distribution, or you will use a 'shelving' equalization - a low Q (wide pass band) type of filter as opposed to the more common narrow band equalization filters - to reduce the gain of the high frequency response. I would also suggest using REW to first evaluate the response of the individual speaker in order to establish a baseline response in order to ascertain what exactly your adjustments might be doing..
dragonfyr is offline  
post #8 of 13 Old 12-13-2011, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
mks_95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jeddah
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonfyr View Post

Having no information on the specific marketplace in Saudi Arabia where you are located, its difficult to point you to a specific source of fiberglass insulation.

Generally speaking you will not find it on Amazon or EBay!

You WILL find it at industrial building supply distributors who distribute it to its primary market - the construction trade who use it for thermal insulation in buildings. You might want to change your search process accordingly. Do not expect them to have any idea of its use for acoustic purposes. We are essentially taking advantage of the economies of scale afforded by a product that is manufactured primarily for thermal insulation and using it for acoustic purposes. This will also be an important factor to consider when inquiring about the materials.

As far as 'brightness'. If you have an over emphasis on high frequencies, then you equalize the gain of the direct signal that comes out of the speakers. Such imbalance has little to do with the number of tweeters or how much sound is bouncing about. You must treat the source. Treatment will not reduce this characteristic - but improper treatment can certainly exacerbate it in a negative manner.

On the other hand, if you are referring to 'liveliness', that is a function of the gain of the first significant energy return after the arrival of the direct signal. The greater the gain of the first significant reflection, the more 'live' the room will sound. Many people will enter a room and clap their hands and proceed to make evaluations incorrectly confusing this behavior with reverberation.

Also, the time differential between the arrival of the direct signal and the first significant reflection determines how 'large' or spacious the room seems.

Both of these last two qualities, liveliness and spaciousness, can be adjusted with appropriate treatment. And in both cases this behavior can be quantified via the use of the ETC response.

unfortunately fiberglass is existed in our area but in big companies for as you mentioned for constructions use, and when i communicate with them they were just doing project and not selling as retailer.. btw we have agencies who specialize in doing professionally acoustic treatment but it will cost me $$$..
mks_95 is offline  
post #9 of 13 Old 12-13-2011, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
mks_95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jeddah
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonfyr View Post

Also, regarding overly bright surrounds...

You would either want to replace them with speakers featuring a more neutral (balanced) frequency distribution, or you will use a 'shelving' equalization - a low Q (wide pass band) type of filter as opposed to the more common narrow band equalization filters - to reduce the gain of the high frequency response. I would also suggest using REW to first evaluate the response of the individual speaker in order to establish a baseline response in order to ascertain what exactly your adjustments might be doing..


i would guess the GIK acoustic panel gonna be the perfect solution in my case especially when i spend alot of time in tweaking my speakers..about the equalizer that going to be my last step to judge my speakers.. as i promised you i will run REW when i set the speakers up..


thanx for everyone..
mks_95
mks_95 is offline  
post #10 of 13 Old 12-13-2011, 09:28 AM
 
dragonfyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 719
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by mks_95 View Post

i would guess the GIK acoustic panel gonna be the perfect solution in my case especially when i spend alot of time in tweaking my speakers..about the equalizer that going to be my last step to judge my speakers.. as i promised you i will run REW when i set the speakers up..


thanx for everyone..
mks_95

Actually, my reference to the use of EQ is NOT the last step attempting to minimize non-minimum phase errors.

It is the first step after the determination of the baseline speaker response. It is intended to modify the direct signal that emanates from the speaker, as using room treatment to modify the direct signal of a speaker is a fool's errand.

Thus the response of the speakers must first be determined and adjusted if their frequency response is unbalanced.

That is an issue separate from room treatment as well as one that must be determined and addressed first, and for which room treatment is not the answer. And no amount of absorption is going to sole that problem - and it will instead simply exacerbate additional problems.
dragonfyr is offline  
post #11 of 13 Old 12-13-2011, 09:31 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
gtpsuper24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,069
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 100
http://www.atsacoustics.com/cat--Fib...ards--106.html

Get some 2" panels from them and just cut and make you own "superchunk" style traps
IMO don't waste time with the pink stuff its not made for deep bass or midbass.

Cut the panels into 17x17x24inch triangles, each panel at 2"thick will give you 16" in height when stacked in the corner so a box of 6 will give you 8ft per box so you could do all 4 corners for the price of just 2 Gik Tri Traps. Cover the front of the trap with a fabric and you done thats it. I did this and it worked out great, tamed some nasty nulls around 60-70hrz.

Price would be around $59 for each corner so you'd only be around $250 for all 4 corners. 1/4 of the price compared to Gik Tri Traps.
gtpsuper24 is offline  
post #12 of 13 Old 12-13-2011, 10:07 AM
 
dragonfyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 719
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

http://www.atsacoustics.com/cat--Fib...ards--106.html
IMO don't waste time with the pink stuff its not made for deep bass or midbass.
...Cut the panels into 17x17x24inch triangles...

Sorry, but that is an outdated 'assumption'.

You might want to familiarize yourself with performance based upon the materials acoustical impedance and specifically its gas flow resistance.

The characteristics of fluffed 'cheap fluffy stuff' does indeed outperform the low frequency absorptive characteristics of the classic OC703 or OC705 assumptions when used in large volumetric velocity based porous absorbers.

Also, for these LF traps, size does matter. You want the corner trap to be at least 24" by 24" by ~34" facing. Additionally you might want to face the front with a minimum of 6 mil plastic sheeting which will reduce the absorption of energy above 600 Hz.
dragonfyr is offline  
post #13 of 13 Old 12-15-2011, 09:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
gtpsuper24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,069
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 100
Sure it would work but it would take up alot of room in the OPs small 11x11 room. Your going to need at minimun of 16" cyclinders stacked floor to ceiling, but like you said larger is better so maybe a 32" cyclinders stacked floor to ceiling would be better. The OP might have some room left to put some other stuff in the room, like subwoofer and speakers.

For his size room 17"x17"x24" is small but will still take up some room, its the "sweet spot" between performance and size, I had great success with that size in the corners and it help with the midbass 60-80hrz range.
gtpsuper24 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off