How do impedence matching speaker selectors work? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 15 Old 07-25-2012, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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So,I pict up a six zone speaker selector for what I thought was a reasonable price.  It has six zones with volume controls for all zones.  It only has input for one set of speakers, but I'm OK with that.  It will enable me to use my Zone 2 for some other purpose, maybe...later.

 

The Speaker Selector has a protection circuit button that toggles on/off.  It is rated for 100WPC.  However, I do not know how the protection circuit worx.

 

Also, I do not know how the over-all impedance matching worx.

 

My AVR is rated 130WPC, but realistically it is probably lower.  I never listen that loud anyway, so this won't be much of a problem.

 

My real concern is, when using different zones, how does the impedance matching keep the draw at 8ohms?

 

I plan on keeping two zones on all of the time.  The next two zones, will be for outside, and the last two zones, I have yet to decide how I would like used.

 

By not using all of the zones at once, will the speaker selector still be able to match the impedance?  Since there are volume controls for each zone, by increasing/decreasing volume levels, does this effect the impedance?

 

Lastly, I assume that the protection circuit should always be on, correct?  Otherwise the impedance is not being matched, and may fry my AVR. 

 

I welcome any and all input regarding speaker selectors, impedance matching, and so forth...

 

Thanx!

 

By the by, I got this second hand and do not have a manual.  Hence, my inquiries.

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post #2 of 15 Old 07-25-2012, 09:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by underminded999 View Post

So,I pict up a six zone speaker selector for what I thought was a reasonable price.  It has six zones with volume controls for all zones.  It only has input for one set of speakers, but I'm OK with that.  It will enable me to use my Zone 2 for some other purpose, maybe...later.

makes and models make a difference...
Quote:
The Speaker Selector has a protection circuit button that toggles on/off.  It is rated for 100WPC.  However, I do not know how the protection circuit worx.

Many possibilities...
Quote:
Also, I do not know how the over-all impedance matching worx.

If yours has some weight to it, it probably contains two autotransformers. An autotransformer is a transfomer-like device that has a single tapped winding. Depending on whcih taps are used, different things happen.

The main difference between an autotransformer and a transformer is that a transformer provides common-mode isolation between its primary and secondary, and has to be larger and more expensive to do a given job.
Quote:
My AVR is rated 130WPC, but realistically it is probably lower.  I never listen that loud anyway, so this won't be much of a problem.

You are probably very wrong. Your AVR can probably put out more than 130 wpc, depending on the load. But music being what it is, your AVR is probably never called on to put out much more than 1/3 of its rated output.
Quote:
My real concern is, when using different zones, how does the impedance matching keep the draw at 8ohms?

Lets say that your device will drive all 6 zones at the same time. One option would be to use the windings to make every speaker look like it has 6 times the impedance. Then. when you turn them all on which hooks them in parallel, they appear to be the load of one speaker.

Energy is conserved, so the cost of the impedance matching is that each speaker loses about 5/6 of its efficiency. Or if you will, it gets 1/6 of the power, probably no matter how many speakers you turn on at a time.
Quote:
I plan on keeping two zones on all of the time.  The next two zones, will be for outside, and the last two zones, I have yet to decide how I would like used.

You'd probably be better off with a 4 zone device, unless you never want things to play all that loud.
Quote:
By not using all of the zones at once, will the speaker selector still be able to match the impedance?

Yes, in its way. This device does not actually attempt to do a really good job of matching impedances. It is more designed to keep you out of bad trouble.
Quote:
Since there are volume controls for each zone, by increasing/decreasing volume levels, does this effect the impedance?

There are additional impedance matching functions and assumptions related to them. There might be a pair of autotransformers for each zone, or not.
Quote:
Lastly, I assume that the protection circuit should always be on, correct?  Otherwise the impedance is not being matched, and may fry my AVR. 

The protection should never be needed unless you short some wiring.
Quote:
I welcome any and all input regarding speaker selectors, impedance matching, and so forth...

By the by, I got this second hand and do not have a manual.  Hence, my inquiries.

The manual might be on the web. I'll bet that there are actually less than a dozen disctinct devices in this category, the rest being the same products sold under different names. Match the pictures!
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post #3 of 15 Old 07-25-2012, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanx for the prompt reply.

 

1) AVR: JVC RX-8040

Speaker Selector: ProSolutions SBX6VC

Website on back of unit: WWW.ProSolutionsAV.com (DEAD!)

 

2) Quite so...

 

3) Kinda heavy, about 9lbs.

 

4) I always take Mfg ratings with a grain of salt.

 

5) a)Would it make a difference if even vs odd number of speakers are in use? 

b)Also, since only a fraction of the power is in use, regardless of the volume on the speaker selector, would the AVR need to be turned up to a really loud level, just to get an average sound?

 

6) I was looking for a four zone speaker selector, but I got this one for less than a four zone one.  Loudness, back to #5b, maybe?

 

7) By "bad trouble", do you mean not matching per se, but keeping within a range, say 4 to 16 ohms?  Or, just making sure it doesn't dip below a certain spec, say 4ohm?

 

8) dunno.

 

9) Really?  Is it merely for piece of mind, a placebo?  Is there harm in using it vs, not using it, can it cause harm to the AVR?

 

10)  I've been searching all over, and I can't find a single lead to the manual.  Since the unit was made in China, I am sure that it is out there, re-branded as something else.  Also the Mfg: ProSolutions seems like OSD and the like, so I figured that there had to be a comparable unit, but alas, I have not be able to find anything.

 

Again, thanx for the input.

 

 

...And if any body has any leads to a manual or other helpful input, please chime in!

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post #4 of 15 Old 07-26-2012, 07:26 AM
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That unit is for a public address system powered with a 70-volt public address amplifier.

You DO NOT have the right type of amplifiers or speakers to use with it, and you may damage your amplifier if you try to use it.

Don't go there.
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post #5 of 15 Old 07-26-2012, 08:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by underminded999 View Post

Thanx for the prompt reply.

1) AVR: JVC RX-8040
Speaker Selector: ProSolutions SBX6VC
Website on back of unit: WWW.ProSolutionsAV.com (DEAD!)

I checked the wayback machine

http://archive.org/web/web.php

And found traces of a web site back in 2005 and 2006. They appeared to be marketing to high end consumers.
Quote:
5) a)Would it make a difference if even vs odd number of speakers are in use? 

I don't think so.

Quote:
b)Also, since only a fraction of the power is in use, regardless of the volume on the speaker selector, would the AVR need to be turned up to a really loud level, just to get an average sound?

I think so. The thing works by splitting up the voltage sent to each speaker.
Quote:
6) I was looking for a four zone speaker selector, but I got this one for less than a four zone one.  Loudness, back to #5b, maybe?

I think you would get some loudness back by using a selector with less maximum capacity.
Quote:
7) By "bad trouble", do you mean not matching per se, but keeping within a range, say 4 to 16 ohms?  Or, just making sure it doesn't dip below a certain spec, say 4ohm?

Bad trouble would be hooking up 4 8 ohm speakers up in parallel and getting a 2 ohm load.
Quote:
9) Really?  Is it merely for piece of mind, a placebo?  Is there harm in using it vs, not using it, can it cause harm to the AVR?

It is not a placebo. I suspect that most AVRs live lives that are relatively stress free.
Quote:
10)  I've been searching all over, and I can't find a single lead to the manual.  Since the unit was made in China, I am sure that it is out there, re-branded as something else.  Also the Mfg: ProSolutions seems like OSD and the like, so I figured that there had to be a comparable unit, but alas, I have not be able to find anything.

This is allegedly a photo of your device:



This current device appears to be very similar, just a slightly different front panel and more modern rounded case:



as does this:




It is called a "SA-6" or a "Sima SSW-6"

Hope that helps!
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post #6 of 15 Old 07-26-2012, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

That unit is for a public address system powered with a 70-volt public address amplifier.
You DO NOT have the right type of amplifiers or speakers to use with it, and you may damage your amplifier if you try to use it.
Don't go there.

Whoa!  That sux.  Are you sure?  Are you familiar with this unit?

 

How would I know that this, or any unit for that matter, is designed to be used with a PA system?  I would like to avoid destroying my AV equipment, and would like to know how to tell the difference between speaker selector that are OK to be used with home AV equipment vs Speaker selectors that are to be used with PA equipment.

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post #7 of 15 Old 07-26-2012, 10:52 AM
 
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Are you sure?

No, he's not.
It's not a 70V device.
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post #8 of 15 Old 07-26-2012, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


I checked the wayback machine
http://archive.org/web/web.php
And found traces of a web site back in 2005 and 2006. They appeared to be marketing to high end consumers.
I don't think so.
I think so. The thing works by splitting up the voltage sent to each speaker.
I think you would get some loudness back by using a selector with less maximum capacity.
Bad trouble would be hooking up 4 8 ohm speakers up in parallel and getting a 2 ohm load.
It is not a placebo. I suspect that most AVRs live lives that are relatively stress free.
This is allegedly a photo of your device:
700
This current device appears to be very similar, just a slightly different front panel and more modern rounded case:
700
as does this:
700
It is called a "SA-6" or a "Sima SSW-6"
Hope that helps!

Thanx, I was unfamiliar with the WBM.  I will bookmark it for further exploration.

 

What is your opinion on what "commsysman" said?  Is there a way to tell if a speaker selector is designed to be used with a PA system vs any other system?

 

I was going to hook it up and see how it sounded, but now I am hesitant, due to what "commsysman" said.

 

The first pic is similar, it is too small to tell for sure, but it looks right.

 

What makes this one so different, is that it uses speaker binding posts for the speaker wire terminals.  I wanted to use Banana plugs, and not the plug and play system like Niles, and Sima use.

 

I tried to do my due diligence, but in the end, I went with my gut, and if "commsysman" is right, I guess that my gut was wrong.

 

I will do more research on 70 volt systems, but in the end, if I can't use this speaker selector, it is worthless to me.

 

Can a 70 volt PA system be integrated with a home AV system?

 

Thanx again.

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post #9 of 15 Old 07-26-2012, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanx Sam64,  I am still hesitant, but thanx to ArnyK and the WayBayMachine, I found an old E-mail address.  I sent an E-mail off, and will wait to see if I get a response or a dead end.

 

Back on topic, assuming that I can use this, ArnyK said, "The thing works by splitting up the voltage sent to each speaker...I think you would get some loudness back by using a selector with less maximum capacity."

 

Is there a way to filter out the excess noise?  I mean regardless of any speakers efficiency, there will still be distortion/loudness/noise due to less power being applied to each speaker?

 

How do Whole Home Audio systems provide clean and clear sound for each set off speakers?

 

Would adding Amps after the speaker selector benefit?  I'm thinking along the lines of the new smaller T style Amps that can be found for the cheap.

 

 

####UPDATE####

The E-mail I found via the WBM is dead.  So it seems that there will be no help from the mfg...

 

Does anyone else have any input regarding speaker selectors that they would like to add?

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post #10 of 15 Old 07-26-2012, 11:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Is there a way to tell if a speaker selector is designed to be used with a PA system vs any other system?

If it was for a 70V system, it would say so.
Commsysman saw transformer in the description and made an uneducated assumption about the device.
Quote:
I mean regardless of any speakers efficiency, there will still be distortion/loudness/noise due to less power being applied to each speaker?

this is a passive device, it can't introduce noise, and it's designed to minimise distortion. What do you mean by 'loudness'?
Quote:
Would adding Amps after the speaker selector benefit?

No, you can use amplifiers to eliminate the selector though.
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post #11 of 15 Old 07-26-2012, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanx, not to badmouth "commsysman" but I see a lot of his posts get second opinions(I'm being generous here).  So all in all, thanx for your input "SAM64".

 

Good to know about the 70V systems.  That makes perfect since.  So since there is no mention of 70v, then this is for home AV use, correct, good.

 

This may not be passive.  There is a power button and a power in for a 14vdc 150mA IN.  I got this second hand and it did not come with the power plug.  I stopped by a RatShak, but they said I needed the device to match the power input plug.  I thought it was standard, but apparently, they sell the voltage adapter and have to pick out the correct plug size from different ones. 

 

While I was waiting to make sure I got the right power adapter, I posted here, and as you can see, this is where it's at.

 

So I have not tested this at all.  I am going to pic up the power adapter tonite and I will play around with it on my older backup AVR, you know, just in case!

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post #12 of 15 Old 07-26-2012, 01:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by underminded999 View Post

Thanx, not to badmouth "commsysman" but I see a lot of his posts get second opinions(I'm being generous here).  So all in all, thanx for your input "SAM64".

Nicely said! ;-)
Quote:
Good to know about the 70V systems.  That makes perfect since.  So since there is no mention of 70v, then this is for home AV use, correct, good.

One other way you can guess what this device is for is to look at the speaker terminals. If they are like 5-way binding posts, then for sure its for home audio.

To me the big clue was finding some old ads from the vendor on the wayback machine. He looked like a home audio supplier, not a commercial sound supplier.

Quote:
This may not be passive.  There is a power button and a power in for a 14vdc 150mA IN.  I got this second hand and it did not come with the power plug.  I stopped by a RatShak, but they said I needed the device to match the power input plug.  I thought it was standard, but apparently, they sell the voltage adapter and have to pick out the correct plug size from different ones. 

If the thing has indicator lights, then they would need power. It is possible and likely that the power is used by the protector circuit that you mentioned.

I bet it passes signal and does all of its switching function without any external power supplied.

Based on the weight and the nature of what it does, the signal path is passive.

Quote:
While I was waiting to make sure I got the right power adapter, I posted here, and as you can see, this is where it's at.

So I have not tested this at all.  I am going to pic up the power adapter tonite and I will play around with it on my older backup AVR, you know, just in case!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post
Quote:Are you sure?


No, he's not.
It's not a 70V device.


It says on the box it is for "playing MUSIC in up to 6 rooms in your home". It also says "protection Circuitry for your Reciever".
SMH
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post #14 of 15 Old 06-19-2016, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by underminded999 

Thanx for the prompt reply.

1) AVR: JVC RX-8040
Speaker Selector: ProSolutions SBX6VC
Website on back of unit: WWW.ProSolutionsAV.com (DEAD!)


I checked the wayback machine

http://archive.org/web/web.php



And found traces of a web site back in 2005 and 2006. They appeared to be marketing to high end consumers.
Quote:5) a)Would it make a difference if even vs odd number of speakers are in use? 


I don't think so.

Quote:b)Also, since only a fraction of the power is in use, regardless of the volume on the speaker selector, would the AVR need to be turned up to a really loud level, just to get an average sound?


I think so. The thing works by splitting up the voltage sent to each speaker.
Quote:6) I was looking for a four zone speaker selector, but I got this one for less than a four zone one.  Loudness, back to #5b, maybe?


I think you would get some loudness back by using a selector with less maximum capacity.
Quote:7) By "bad trouble", do you mean not matching per se, but keeping within a range, say 4 to 16 ohms?  Or, just making sure it doesn't dip below a certain spec, say 4ohm?


Bad trouble would be hooking up 4 8 ohm speakers up in parallel and getting a 2 ohm load.
Quote:9) Really?  Is it merely for piece of mind, a placebo?  Is there harm in using it vs, not using it, can it cause harm to the AVR?


It is not a placebo. I suspect that most AVRs live lives that are relatively stress free.
Quote:10)  I've been searching all over, and I can't find a single lead to the manual.  Since the unit was made in China, I am sure that it is out there, re-branded as something else.  Also the Mfg: ProSolutions seems like OSD and the like, so I figured that there had to be a comparable unit, but alas, I have not be able to find anything.


This is allegedly a photo of your device:



This current device appears to be very similar, just a slightly different front panel and more modern rounded case:



as does this:




It is called a "SA-6" or a "Sima SSW-6"

Hope that helps!

SA-6 Specs are not the same for anyone looking thinking this is the same thing. Its not.
The SBX6 is 100 Watt

SA-6 SPECIFICATIONS:
MANUFACTURER: NEW WAVE AUDIO
PART NUMBER: SA-6
6-WAY
WITH AUTOMATIC LOAD PROTECTION
180 WATTS RMS & 360 WATTS MUSIC POWER FOR 6 PAIRS OF SPEAKERS
SUITABLE FOR 4, 6, AND OHMS SPEAKER SYSTEM
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post #15 of 15 Old 06-19-2016, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by underminded999 View Post
Thanx, not to badmouth "commsysman" but I see a lot of his posts get second opinions(I'm being generous here).  So all in all, thanx for your input "SAM64".
 
Good to know about the 70V systems.  That makes perfect since.  So since there is no mention of 70v, then this is for home AV use, correct, good.
 
This may not be passive.  There is a power button and a power in for a 14vdc 150mA IN.  I got this second hand and it did not come with the power plug.  I stopped by a RatShak, but they said I needed the device to match the power input plug.  I thought it was standard, but apparently, they sell the voltage adapter and have to pick out the correct plug size from different ones. 
 
While I was waiting to make sure I got the right power adapter, I posted here, and as you can see, this is where it's at.
 
So I have not tested this at all.  I am going to pic up the power adapter tonite and I will play around with it on my older backup AVR, you know, just in case!
The one I am looking at right now does not have a place for a power adapter. ??? I am guessing it takes an amp running at or below 100w to run it. No manual to be found on this unit. I have looked everywhere online.
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