Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 501 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15001 of 27607 Old 06-03-2015, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
As I was researching SBIR, I came across this site. It is interesting reading and quite comprehensive, so I wanted to share it here for others to take a look.

http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/room-...ker-placement/
This is mostly for control rooms, but some of the ideas can be adapted.


"Start by facing the short wall of your room, so your speakers fire down the length of the room. It’s usually better for the listening position to face the short wall vs the long wall. This tends to give a flatter bass response.

Also, this lets you maximize the distance between the rear wall and your ears. If your rear wall is reflective, it should be at least 10 feet from your ears… otherwise it needs treatment (more on this later)."

I have Reaction Audio CX-10s, with (supposedly) 90* conical dispersion. I'm about to put them into a rectangular room that's open near one end (the corner has an opening to the kitchen). I'm considering either putting them on the short wall of the closed end of the room, or on the long wall. But that would only leave a couple of feet to the opposite wall behind me. From the article, I get the impression that it's really important to avoid sitting near the rear wall, and that is why they recommend putting them on the short wall, even though that will put them in closer proximity to the side walls. They're probably also assuming said walls will be treated, and there is no guarantee that I'll be able to do that.

I'm wondering if you don't treat the side walls, is it still generally better to go with the short wall? If I had to guess, it's 11-13 feet by about 20 feet.

Last edited by Soulburner; 06-04-2015 at 02:25 AM.
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post #15002 of 27607 Old 06-04-2015, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
This is mostly for control rooms, but some of the ideas can be adapted.


"Start by facing the short wall of your room, so your speakers fire down the length of the room. It’s usually better for the listening position to face the short wall vs the long wall. This tends to give a flatter bass response.

Also, this lets you maximize the distance between the rear wall and your ears. If your rear wall is reflective, it should be at least 10 feet from your ears… otherwise it needs treatment (more on this later)."

I have Reaction Audio CX-10s, with (supposedly) 90* conical dispersion. I'm about to put them into a rectangular room that's open near one end (the corner has an opening to the kitchen). I'm considering either putting them on the short wall of the closed end of the room, or on the long wall. But that would only leave a couple of feet to the opposite wall behind me. From the article, I get the impression that it's really important to avoid sitting near the rear wall, and that is why they recommend putting them on the short wall, even though that will put them in closer proximity to the side walls. They're probably also assuming said walls will be treated, and there is no guarantee that I'll be able to do that.

I'm wondering if you don't treat the side walls, is it still generally better to go with the short wall? If I had to guess, it's 11-13 feet by about 20 feet.
Those of us who have to make do by using multi-purpose rooms as listening rooms, rather than having dedicated home theater rooms, must work with what we have. In my case, my 19.5' x 16.5' room cannot have a layout with the speakers on the short side, and I have large openings to the rest of the ground floor at the back of the room.

I think the article states that, if you can do it, orienting the layout so that the speakers are on the short wall, and keeping a reasonable distance between the MLP and the back wall, results in the best sound. But the article also states that if you can't do this, using well-placed, effective treatments can help overcome room layout challenges.

Even with my less-than-optimal layout, I have been able to achieve quote good bass response using treatments, multiple subs, and effective equipment placement, which provides an example that good results should be achievable for anyone who is willing to work for it.
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post #15003 of 27607 Old 06-04-2015, 07:36 AM
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Does this look right for adding the sens factor to the narrow 90 degree?

"-.1543dB"
4.33 -5.64 0
5.79 -3.65 0
7.24 -2.99 0
8.69 -1.54 0
10.14 -1.32 0
11.58 -0.54 0
13.04 -0.38 0


Or should it be:

"Sens Factor =-.1543dB"

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post #15004 of 27607 Old 06-04-2015, 07:40 AM
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Nevermind, got it.

It needed

Sens Factor =-.1543dB

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post #15005 of 27607 Old 06-04-2015, 09:43 AM
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XT32 On


Off



Subs are mode tuned for 24hz

XBR65A9G / XBR65A8F
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post #15006 of 27607 Old 06-04-2015, 10:10 AM
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Comparison of each speaker on vs off (XT32)

Front Left



Front Right


Center


Subs

XBR65A9G / XBR65A8F
Oppo UDP-203 / Sony X800M2
AVRX6500H / RP-8000F / RP-504C / RP-502S / FV15HP
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post #15007 of 27607 Old 06-04-2015, 10:36 AM
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gadgtfreek,

You have a very good result. How do they sound? With the upward curve at the high end, I'm wondering if they will sound fatiguing. Audyssey usually tries to roll off those frequencies. Is that Audyssey Flat?
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post #15008 of 27607 Old 06-04-2015, 10:42 AM
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@gadgtfreek ,

A couple of suggestions regarding how you present your measurements:

- The vertical scale should be 50-100dB, showing 5dB increments. A scale of 0-100dB makes the graph look flatter than it really is.

- No need to measure subs to 20KHz. 15-300Hz is the conventional range. Also, sub measurements should be shown with no smoothing.

Also, the sub response seems to drop like a rock under 50Hz. What model subs are those?
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post #15009 of 27607 Old 06-04-2015, 10:54 AM
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Thanks Jerry.

I am picking up on that now and will put reminders in my case with the mic.

Soulburner that is XT32 (Reference) Blue and XT32 Off Red.

I am getting another sub in tomorrow so I will have to rerun Audyssey and then I get some more off and on charts then.


One thing I noticed, if you read the subs with a test tone at reference level, they read about 5-6db low, but when you look at the chart with all speakers measured, their level seems OK (at the level audyssey set them at). Weird.

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post #15010 of 27607 Old 06-04-2015, 10:56 AM
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Jerry, the subs are VTF15's in 24hz mode.

Here is a better chart:


XBR65A9G / XBR65A8F
Oppo UDP-203 / Sony X800M2
AVRX6500H / RP-8000F / RP-504C / RP-502S / FV15HP
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post #15011 of 27607 Old 06-04-2015, 10:57 AM
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I think the test tones don't have Audyssey applied, iirc. Also I believe kbarnes suggests 45-105db.
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post #15012 of 27607 Old 06-04-2015, 10:59 AM
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Could be on the tones.

Am I correct in thinking that the goal of each speaker is to be +/-5db from 75db?

XBR65A9G / XBR65A8F
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post #15013 of 27607 Old 06-04-2015, 11:08 AM
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+/- from whatever you set your volume to. Many people run their sweeps a lot louder than 75db
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post #15014 of 27607 Old 06-04-2015, 11:15 AM
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Mine was set at -15db volume on the Marantz and in REW, with 0.0 being reference on the Marantz. When I got around 12 or below I would get clipping.

XBR65A9G / XBR65A8F
Oppo UDP-203 / Sony X800M2
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post #15015 of 27607 Old 06-04-2015, 01:19 PM
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Decided to re-do, with subs in 17hz tuning mode. Have more oomph from 15-20hz now.




XBR65A9G / XBR65A8F
Oppo UDP-203 / Sony X800M2
AVRX6500H / RP-8000F / RP-504C / RP-502S / FV15HP
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post #15016 of 27607 Old 06-04-2015, 07:09 PM
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I thought this was pretty informative.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-YuK287x...acoustics.html
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post #15017 of 27607 Old 06-05-2015, 09:41 AM
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General Measurement Questions

Hello,



First off, thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. It is incredibly informative. I have learned so much.



I’ve just recently started getting into REW and I have a few questions about the correct procedures for making measurements.



I am using the UMIK-1 with the calibration file from the website. So far, I have done most of my measurements at around 75db, which usually leaves me with an ample amount of headroom. However, I’m often close to the limit, or going over the limit whenever I try and do measurements at levels closer to 85db. Is there something that I need to do to prevent this? Note: I have severe modal ringing from about 20hz-40hz. Could this be the cause?



When I do a test tone (pink noise) without Audyssey engaged and adjust my volume so that the mic is reading about 75db, if I then engage Audyssey without readjusting the volume, the mic then reads closer to 85db. This is probably due to the fact that Audyssey is boosting the bass frequencies between 20hz-80hz. In order to best see the differences between having Audyssey off vs. having it on, do I need to turn the volume down when Audyssey is turned on so that the mic reads roughly the same amount of db that I have when Audyssey is turned off? Sorry if this question is confusing, but I suspect most of you will understand what I mean.



Thanks.

Last edited by buckchester; 06-05-2015 at 09:46 AM.
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post #15018 of 27607 Old 06-05-2015, 09:49 AM
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I am running into a clipping issue and was told I could reduce the mic input volume in windows to combat that, because I would like to run compression sweeps for my subs.

Audyssey boosts the LFE channel 10db when on, which is why you use a -30dbfs signal to set speakers to 75db and a -40dbfs signal to set the subs to 75db.

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post #15019 of 27607 Old 06-05-2015, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
I am running into a clipping issue and was told I could reduce the mic input volume in windows to combat that, because I would like to run compression sweeps for my subs...
That has been the subject of some discussion here. I'm not sure we drew any conclusions. What I think I gathered was some people were saying you can reduce the mic input to avoid clipping and higher levels, while others were saying that doing so either had implications for the measurement or would not enable use to compare apples to apples with each others results. I'm confused by it myself so I may not even be summing up the situation correctly. I plan to test changing the input mic level this weekend.
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post #15020 of 27607 Old 06-05-2015, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
I am running into a clipping issue and was told I could reduce the mic input volume in windows to combat that, because I would like to run compression sweeps for my subs.

Audyssey boosts the LFE channel 10db when on, which is why you use a -30dbfs signal to set speakers to 75db and a -40dbfs signal to set the subs to 75db.
Audyssey does not boost the "LFE channel". It can certainly modify your frequency response with EQ filters, but in that case it could be boosting or cutting depending on your in-room response.

I think you may be confusing the +10db output of the LFE channel (relative to the other channels) with Audyssey.
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post #15021 of 27607 Old 06-05-2015, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckchester View Post
Hello,



First off, thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. It is incredibly informative. I have learned so much.



I’ve just recently started getting into REW and I have a few questions about the correct procedures for making measurements.



I am using the UMIK-1 with the calibration file from the website. So far, I have done most of my measurements at around 75db, which usually leaves me with an ample amount of headroom. However, I’m often close to the limit, or going over the limit whenever I try and do measurements at levels closer to 85db. Is there something that I need to do to prevent this? Note: I have severe modal ringing from about 20hz-40hz. Could this be the cause?



When I do a test tone (pink noise) without Audyssey engaged and adjust my volume so that the mic is reading about 75db, if I then engage Audyssey without readjusting the volume, the mic then reads closer to 85db. This is probably due to the fact that Audyssey is boosting the bass frequencies between 20hz-80hz. In order to best see the differences between having Audyssey off vs. having it on, do I need to turn the volume down when Audyssey is turned on so that the mic reads roughly the same amount of db that I have when Audyssey is turned off? Sorry if this question is confusing, but I suspect most of you will understand what I mean.



Thanks.
This is quite unusual. Usually, there will be a change in average SPL when engaging Audyssey, but normally not anywhere near a 10db difference...usually around 1-2db. Are you certain nothing else changed??
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post #15022 of 27607 Old 06-05-2015, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckchester View Post
When I do a test tone (pink noise) without Audyssey engaged and adjust my volume so that the mic is reading about 75db, if I then engage Audyssey without readjusting the volume, the mic then reads closer to 85db. This is probably due to the fact that Audyssey is boosting the bass frequencies between 20hz-80hz.
You should get the same average SPL readings with Audyssey on and off (due to level normalization done internally)... Something is going weird if it is not the case.
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post #15023 of 27607 Old 06-05-2015, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
This is quite unusual. Usually, there will be a change in average SPL when engaging Audyssey, but normally not anywhere near a 10db difference...usually around 1-2db. Are you certain nothing else changed??
Yes, I am certain that the only thing I changed was turning Audyssey on. I will double check, but I think the db went fro approx. 75 without Audyssey to around 82-83db with Audyssey.

So this potential issue aside, knowing the db will change, do I need to readjust the volume slightly downwards when Audyssey is turned on so that the db is as close as I can get it back to 75?
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post #15024 of 27607 Old 06-05-2015, 10:30 AM
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^^^

Are you using REW with HDMI? Which channel(s) are you outputting to when you see the change in SPL?

But, yes...you want to adjust the speaker trims so that all channels are outputting 75db with Audyssey engaged using REW's Speaker Cal for the speakers and Sub Cal for the subs set to -30. In order to do the subs, you will have to output to either one of the front channels or the center channel and unplug the speaker -OR- output to CH4 and decrease the level (either MV or the Sub Cal signal) by 10db.
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post #15025 of 27607 Old 06-05-2015, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
You should get the same average SPL readings with Audyssey on and off (due to level normalization done internally)... Something is going weird if it is not the case.
Well, there is definitely more bass when I turn Audyssey on. The overall SPL also sounds louder. I have run Audyssey many different times and this result seems consistent with what I've always perceived.

The version of Audyssey that I have is MultEQ through a Marantz SR5005 receiver.

To toggle Audyssey on and off I go into the menu screen, under Audyssey settings I set it to "Audyssey" to turn it on and I set it to either "none" or "off" (can't remember exactly how it's labelled) to turn it off.

If this increase in db seems strange, anyone have any trouble shooting tips that I should explore to see if something is amiss?
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post #15026 of 27607 Old 06-05-2015, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckchester View Post
Yes, I am certain that the only thing I changed was turning Audyssey on. I will double check, but I think the db went fro approx. 75 without Audyssey to around 82-83db with Audyssey.
Could it be that you also turned on DynamicEQ together with it?
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post #15027 of 27607 Old 06-05-2015, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
^^^

Are you using REW with HDMI? Which channel(s) are you outputting to when you see the change in SPL?

But, yes...you want to adjust the speaker trims so that all channels are outputting 75db with Audyssey engaged using REW's Speaker Cal for the speakers and Sub Cal for the subs set to -30. In order to do the subs, you will have to output to either one of the front channels or the center channel and unplug the speaker -OR- output to CH4 and decrease the level (either MV or the Sub Cal signal) by 10db.
Yes, I am using REW with HDMI through a MacBook Pro.

When I see the change in SPL I am outputting both the front left and right and the sub at the same time. Based on your response, I think this might not be the correct way to do it. Should I be doing the front left and right speakers separate from the sub? If so, perhaps this is the source of the problem.
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post #15028 of 27607 Old 06-05-2015, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
Could it be that you also turned on DynamicEQ together with it?
Yes, I do have DynamicEQ turned on when Audyssey is on.
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post #15029 of 27607 Old 06-05-2015, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Audyssey does not boost the "LFE channel". It can certainly modify your frequency response with EQ filters, but in that case it could be boosting or cutting depending on your in-room response.

I think you may be confusing the +10db output of the LFE channel (relative to the other channels) with Audyssey.
Not confused, just didn't explain it the way I meant it in my head, or to your liking obviously.

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post #15030 of 27607 Old 06-05-2015, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckchester View Post
Yes, I do have DynamicEQ turned on when Audyssey is on.
BINGO!

Good call @IgorZep !
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