Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 725 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #21721 of 27583 Old 02-26-2017, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by WormInfested View Post
i'm still fiddling with REW but yes when i did it the crossover was at 80 on the receiver. i'll bump it all the way and rerun it again. not sure how to do the measurement with the center but will study up on that today.
Just unplug the other speakers.
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post #21722 of 27583 Old 02-26-2017, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by WormInfested View Post
i'm still fiddling with REW but yes when i did it the crossover was at 80 on the receiver. i'll bump it all the way and rerun it again. not sure how to do the measurement with the center but will study up on that today.
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Originally Posted by Quickett View Post
Just unplug the other speakers.
OK, here are some more details. I assume that measurements are being taken with a laptop that supports HDMI/ASIO wit REW.

- To Measure Sub only, output the REW signal to HDMI3 and unplug the cable to the center channel. (Raise the Center crossover to it's highest value)
- To measure Sub+Center, output the REW signal to HDMI3 and plug the center back in. (Remember to lower the crossover back to 80Hz).
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post #21723 of 27583 Old 02-26-2017, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Hello guys, when it's mentioned to change or alter the phase (delay) of the closer sub to MLP, are we talking about decreasing the distance versus increasing? Please excuse my ignorance but one would expect to increase the delay of the closer sub to compensate for the differences of the FF sub. I do know that the closer sub's delay does indeed need to be decreased but don't understand the reasoning for it, it does sound counter intuitive but know it's the right way, please explain. TIA
If you have two speakers or subs that are different distances away from the MLP without any time alignment, the signal from the closest sub will reach your ears first. You want to delay the signal from the nearest sub to achieve time alignment. Take the difference between the two subs distances, convert to inches, divide by 13512 (speed of sound in in/sec), and multiply the results by 1000 to convert the result to milliseconds.

Example: Two subs, one 10ft from MLP and one 5ft from MLP. Difference = 5ft = 60in. (60/13512)*1000 = 4.4ms. So you would add a delay of 4.4ms to the nearest sub.
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post #21724 of 27583 Old 02-26-2017, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Hello guys, when it's mentioned to change or alter the phase (delay) of the closer sub to MLP, are we talking about decreasing the distance versus increasing?
I think you can do either to reach phase alignment. IMO, I think if you can decrease it's better but the only thing that matters is that the sub and mains are phase-aligned.
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post #21725 of 27583 Old 02-26-2017, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
I think you can do either to reach phase alignment. IMO, I think if you can decrease it's better but the only thing that matters is that the sub and mains are phase-aligned.

Think of it as plus or minus......one direction adds delay, the other makes the delay shorter.

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post #21726 of 27583 Old 02-26-2017, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
I think you can do either to reach phase alignment. IMO, I think if you can decrease it's better but the only thing that matters is that the sub and mains are phase-aligned.
No, the subs need to be phase aligned with each other as well, and then the combined signal needs to be time aligned with the mains. In my setup, the former is done manually with the MiniDSP (and validated using REW measurements), while the alignment between the combined sub channel and the mains is handled by the Dirac calibration.
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post #21727 of 27583 Old 02-26-2017, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
Think of it as plus or minus......one direction adds delay, the other makes the delay shorter.
Typically, the furthest device has a zero delay and nearer devices have a positive delay. So I am not sure what you mean by plus or minus. Care to elaborate?
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post #21728 of 27583 Old 02-26-2017, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Typically, the furthest device has a zero delay and nearer devices have a positive delay. So I am not sure what you mean by plus or minus. Care to elaborate?
Basically exactly what you said.........



Technically not plus or minus........better stated/more clearly stated on my part, adding and subtracting delay that is in the positive measurement range.

Bad terminology use on my part, sorry.


I just learned that the farthest is typically set to 0,...thanks!

I was just trying to help explain, which in retrospect, I did a poor job of.

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post #21729 of 27583 Old 02-26-2017, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
If you have two speakers or subs that are different distances away from the MLP without any time alignment, the signal from the closest sub will reach your ears first. You want to delay the signal from the nearest sub to achieve time alignment. Take the difference between the two subs distances, convert to inches, divide by 13512 (speed of sound in in/sec), and multiply the results by 1000 to convert the result to milliseconds.

Example: Two subs, one 10ft from MLP and one 5ft from MLP. Difference = 5ft = 60in. (60/13512)*1000 = 4.4ms. So you would add a delay of 4.4ms to the nearest sub.
Jerry Thanks, that's the explanation I was hoping to get, very easy to understand now. You say you manually time align your subs prior to Dirac, your front two are equidistant from MLP and your rear two are equidistant as well but not the same distance as the fronts, correct?
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post #21730 of 27583 Old 02-26-2017, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Jerry Thanks, that's the explanation I was hoping to get, very easy to understand now. You say you manually time align your subs prior to Dirac, your front two are equidistant from MLP and your rear two are equidistant as well but not the same distance as the fronts, correct?
Yes, that is correct. The front subs are 12ft away, the rear subs only 3ft away. The 2x4 only allows a maximum of 7.5ms delay, and I am close to that limit. Unfortunately, that is one of the weaknesses of the 2x4.
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post #21731 of 27583 Old 02-26-2017, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Yes, that is correct. The front subs are 12ft away, the rear subs only 3ft away. The 2x4 only allows a maximum of 7.5ms delay, and I am close to that limit. Unfortunately, that is one of the weaknesses of the 2x4.

I have been looking at the minidsp 2x4 and the Behringer DEQ2496 Ultra-Curve Pro High Performance 24Bit Digital Audio Processor .

I can get both at about the same price once you figure software for the 2x4......the pro curve would be used.

Any thoughts ?

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post #21732 of 27583 Old 02-27-2017, 04:46 AM
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Subwoofer delay testing
I have read in this thread and other forums, to set the subwoofer delay so that a max SPL is attained in the Xover region. Another method that is used is the impulse response.
I wanted to see how both methods correlate. So I did a series of measurements with different delays of the subwoofer relative to the center speaker, with the center speaker as timing reference. I changed the relative delay between center speaker and subwoofer in steps of 0.3m. Reference is no delay setting, then the next step is the center delayed by 0.3m, next 0.6m and so on.
The IR Impulse response diagram shows that with a setting of 0.9m (green curve), the start of the subwoofer impulse is more or less aligned properly with the center channel.

For the SPL, I show a narrow cutout window around the Xover region. Xover is set in the AVR at 120Hz (I have fairly small speakers and 120Hz is recommended by the manufacturer. I checked this was OK, but this is not the topic here).
At a delay setting 0.9m (green curve), the peak at 130Hz is definitely higher than in the reference condition. So far so good. The 130Hz peak at 1.2m (dark blue curve) setting is even higher, but the through at 160Hz is lower.

So my conclusion is:
IR method and SPL method correspond quite well. The interpretation with IR is easier.
In my case, I would choose a delay of 0.9m, because the SPL peak at Xover is almost maximum, and the IR impulse response shows proper timing. (In a next step I intend to EQ the subwoofer).

I would like to hear comments about this methodology and the conclusions for my case.
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post #21733 of 27583 Old 02-27-2017, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
I have been looking at the minidsp 2x4 and the Behringer DEQ2496 Ultra-Curve Pro High Performance 24Bit Digital Audio Processor .

I can get both at about the same price once you figure software for the 2x4......the pro curve would be used.

Any thoughts ?
I have no experience with the Behringer. The MiniDSP has been perfect for my requirements, and MiniDSP's support organization has been excellent.
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post #21734 of 27583 Old 02-27-2017, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by turboman123 View Post
Subwoofer delay testing
I have read in this thread and other forums, to set the subwoofer delay so that a max SPL is attained in the Xover region. Another method that is used is the impulse response.
I wanted to see how both methods correlate. So I did a series of measurements with different delays of the subwoofer relative to the center speaker, with the center speaker as timing reference. I changed the relative delay between center speaker and subwoofer in steps of 0.3m. Reference is no delay setting, then the next step is the center delayed by 0.3m, next 0.6m and so on.
The IR Impulse response diagram shows that with a setting of 0.9m (green curve), the start of the subwoofer impulse is more or less aligned properly with the center channel.

For the SPL, I show a narrow cutout window around the Xover region. Xover is set in the AVR at 120Hz (I have fairly small speakers and 120Hz is recommended by the manufacturer. I checked this was OK, but this is not the topic here).
At a delay setting 0.9m (green curve), the peak at 130Hz is definitely higher than in the reference condition. So far so good. The 130Hz peak at 1.2m (dark blue curve) setting is even higher, but the through at 160Hz is lower.

So my conclusion is:
IR method and SPL method correspond quite well. The interpretation with IR is easier.
In my case, I would choose a delay of 0.9m, because the SPL peak at Xover is almost maximum, and the IR impulse response shows proper timing. (In a next step I intend to EQ the subwoofer).

I would like to hear comments about this methodology and the conclusions for my case.
It is difficult to tell which impulse curve is which, since they are all the same color. But I agree with you, I would be inclined to go with the impulse response approach. In my setup, I use automated room correction (Dirac Live) to set the delay between the combined sub signal and the mains. When I check the results using the impulse response method, the alignment is always spot-on.
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post #21735 of 27583 Old 02-27-2017, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by turboman123 View Post
I would like to hear comments about this methodology and the conclusions for my case.
If you flip the phase on the sub(s), you look for the lowest SPL (which is usually more obvious than the highest and much easier on the ears).
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post48610609
Then switch the phase back, obviously.
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post #21736 of 27583 Old 02-27-2017, 07:21 AM
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If you flip the phase on the sub(s), you look for the lowest SPL (which is usually more obvious than the highest and much easier on the ears).
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post48610609
Then switch the phase back, obviously.
Michael
That's not a "phase switch" but a polarity reversal. Sometimes reversing polarity will create better results. It all depends on the phase behavior of the other sources involved.

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post #21737 of 27583 Old 02-27-2017, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Yes, that is correct. The front subs are 12ft away, the rear subs only 3ft away. The 2x4 only allows a maximum of 7.5ms delay, and I am close to that limit. Unfortunately, that is one of the weaknesses of the 2x4.
Thanks Jerry, would I benefit much using a single output channel for multiple subs with the 2x4 with having XT32 SUB EQ capabilities? The reason I ask, I have added a third sub (identical) to my system and was looking for the best option prior to running the RC calibration. I have an unbalanced 2x4 that I've never used, should I be concerned with the .9 volt gain? I'd like to try the time alignment 2x4 method in your sig if you think it's a viable option with the Audy SUB EQ?
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post #21738 of 27583 Old 02-27-2017, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
That's not a "phase switch" but a polarity reversal.
Okay, this is me pleading ignorance again.
What's the difference?
Michael
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post #21739 of 27583 Old 02-27-2017, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Thanks Jerry, would I benefit much using a single output channel for multiple subs with the 2x4 with having XT32 SUB EQ capabilities? The reason I ask, I have added a third sub (identical) to my system and was looking for the best option prior to running the RC calibration. I have an unbalanced 2x4 that I've never used, should I be concerned with the .9 volt gain? I'd like to try the time alignment 2x4 method in your sig if you think it's a viable option with the Audy SUB EQ?
If you use the 2x4, then don't use dual sub outputs with XT32--it's an either-or. If your third sub can be paired with an existing sub and placed equidistant from the MLP, you can still use XT32 effectively.
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post #21740 of 27583 Old 02-27-2017, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
If you use the 2x4, then don't use dual sub outputs with XT32--it's an either-or. If your third sub can be paired with an existing sub and placed equidistant from the MLP, you can still use XT32 effectively.
Correct me if I'm not understanding paired with an existing sub equidistant from MLP, I'll have two subs on one preout that are equidistant to MLP and the third on the second separate output but not equidistant to the front pair to the MLP. In other words the third sub will be closer to the MLP than the front pair, not NF but within 5' radius of the LP. Is this what you're saying or do you recommend a different configuration with XT32, thanks?
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post #21741 of 27583 Old 02-27-2017, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Correct me if I'm not understanding paired with an existing sub equidistant from MLP, I'll have two subs on one preout that are equidistant to MLP and the third on the second separate output but not equidistant to the front pair to the MLP. In other words the third sub will be closer to the MLP than the front pair, not NF but within 5' radius of the LP. Is this what you're saying or do you recommend a different configuration with XT32, thanks?
That is exactly how I would do it.
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post #21742 of 27583 Old 02-27-2017, 11:37 AM
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Ok fella's so I've got some questions. I just redid my speaker configuration and I'm totally lost as to how to get rid of a MASSIVE dip in my response.

I ran XT32 and left everything default and ran a Graph using my Right speaker + sub. It is the Brown One. Decently even response but given I have a sealed sub was confused why it wasnt better.

So I cranked the gain on my UM18 4 cubic foot box paired with a bridged Crown XLS2000 sub. Still no real change in the under 80hz stuff.

So I looked and XT32 set my Fronts to Large. So I set them to Small and left the Crossover at 40hz and took another measurement, the green one. The sub gain is at 100% so thats why its a MASSIVE increase, and I dont anticipate keeping it there.

Here is where I am annoyed.

The MASSIVE dip around 53hz wont ever seem to go away. I'm open to suggestions as to combat it, or if its even a big deal, but I've never been able to get rid of it.


In the past I think I've tried the following things to no avail, but I'm open to trying them again:

-Changing the distance of my sub foot by foot (forwards and then backwards) and seeing how it adjusts, but IIRC not a lot changed.
-I adjusted the Crossover settings on my fronts from 40hz all the way up to 100hz in increments of 10 but all that happened was that there started to get to be a dip around 90hz that caused other issues

Any thoughts or suggestions welcomed. I have pics of my layout in my signature. Some slight furniture changes just happened but the room is pretty much the same.

I realized last night that at least that dip around 90 was due to me being an idiot.

I had set my Crown XLS2000 to bridge... LOWPASS. I had added a filter at 89hz to the response so I was stacking XT32's filters on top of that.

I set it to bypass and plan to run some more sweeps after I redo XT32 due to adding in a second sub enclosure thats ~4 cubic feet with 4 x 12's in it.

I anticipate seeing a much smoother response at that point.

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post #21743 of 27583 Old 02-27-2017, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
I realized last night that at least that dip around 90 was due to me being an idiot.
Been there, done that.
Looking forward to your new and improved graphs.
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post #21744 of 27583 Old 02-27-2017, 12:39 PM
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I realized last night that at least that dip around 90 was due to me being an idiot.
If I had a dollar for every stupid audio mistake I have made, I would be a rich man. But the joy of realizing what has been done in time to correct it, that is sublime!
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Never mind... my employer apparently has drop box blocked.
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post #21746 of 27583 Old 02-28-2017, 10:06 AM
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That is exactly how I would do it.
Thanks again Jerry, you've always been so helpful and quick to respond to my queries and not just myself but anybody.
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post #21747 of 27583 Old 02-28-2017, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

- To Measure Sub only, output the REW signal to HDMI3 and unplug the cable to the center channel. (Raise the Center crossover to it's highest value).
I have to be honest. I never understood why one would do this vs. just measuring CH4 with Xover set to 200Hz (highest). FYI - My AVR is global Xover This would measure the LFE channel out to 200Hz, which I believe is past the frequency most LFE channel audio would go (120Hz?).

If I measured CH3 with center unplugged and xover set to 200hz, how would this be different? (I'm not saying it isn't, I actually would like to learn how it is).

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post #21748 of 27583 Old 02-28-2017, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I have to be honest. I never understood why one would do this vs. just measuring CH4 with Xover set to 200Hz (highest). FYI - My AVR is global Xover This would measure the LFE channel out to 200Hz, which I believe is past the frequency most LFE channel audio would go (120Hz?).

If I measured CH3 with center unplugged and xover set to 200hz, how would this be different? (I'm not saying it isn't, I actually would like to learn how it is).
You are correct-either way will produce the same measurement. Just remember that HDMI4 output will be at a 10dB higher output, so compensate accordingly.

In my case, unplugging the cable to my center channel is very simple, so I usually prefer measuring this way, rather than compensating for the 10dB boost. Personal preference only.
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post #21749 of 27583 Old 02-28-2017, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You are correct-either way will produce the same measurement. Just remember that HDMI4 output will be at a 10dB higher output, so compensate accordingly.



In my case, unplugging the cable to my center channel is very simple, so I usually prefer measuring this way, rather than compensating for the 10dB boost. Personal preference only.


Ok cool. I always set REW to -22db for CH4 measurements and -12db for all others.
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post #21750 of 27583 Old 02-28-2017, 12:06 PM
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As opposed to just raising/lowering your AVR 10dB?

Michael
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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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