Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 748 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #22411 of 27673 Old 04-25-2017, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Best to use a boom mic stand. Position the mic tip at ear level. Keep the mic 12-18" away from seat backs. Make sure there is an unobstructed line-of-sight to all speakers (i.e. the seat back should not block anything).
When I listen to my system my ears are very close to my couch back, wouldn't moving the mic 12-18 inches drastically alter my results?
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post #22412 of 27673 Old 04-25-2017, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The recommendation specifically pertains to mains speakers with directional mid and high frequency drivers. Clearly, a direct line of sight should be maintained for these speakers.

Subs, however, are entirely different. The low frequencies are not directional and simply "fill the room". So I would say for the subs, keep the mic tip at ear height even though the seat back may be blocking the sub. As always, it is a good idea to experiment to make sure this recommendation works for you.
Thank you, thought so but have been curious for some time now.
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post #22413 of 27673 Old 04-25-2017, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy1 View Post
When I listen to my system my ears are very close to my couch back, wouldn't moving the mic 12-18 inches drastically alter my results?
Two things:

- Keeping the mic 12=18" away from reflecting surfaces will produce a more accurate calibration, regardless of where your head/ears are.

- If your ears are close to the couch back when viewing, then your audio is already compromised. When listening to some music, lift your head away from the seatback and listen to how the sound changes. Moving your head reduces the reflected sound coming from the seat back. Reflected sound is bad. This is a difficult issue to resolve without changing your seating.
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post #22414 of 27673 Old 04-25-2017, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Two things:

- Keeping the mic 12=18" away from reflecting surfaces will produce a more accurate calibration, regardless of where your head/ears are.

- If your ears are close to the couch back when viewing, then your audio is already compromised. When listening to some music, lift your head away from the seatback and listen to how the sound changes. Moving your head reduces the reflected sound coming from the seat back. Reflected sound is bad. This is a difficult issue to resolve without changing your seating.
Decisions, decisions. Get pretty relaxed listening to music in my couch recliner. Thanks for the clarification
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post #22415 of 27673 Old 04-25-2017, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Strange. I would think each YPAO would start out with fresh setting, without any recollection of previous runs. Sounds like the advice you received is hocus-pocus. Did you challenge his reasoning?

The typical approach to using REW to EQ the sub channel would be:\

1. Turn off YPAO.
2. Measure the combined sub signal, 15-300Hz.
3. Develop and apply the manual sub EQ based on the REW measurements.
4. Run YPAO.
5. Measure results with REW.
Interesting. The guy who gave the advice is perhaps our most knowledgeable poster about Yamaha receivers and YPAO but I have no idea how expert he is with REW. I'll take your suggestion under advisement anyway. It sounds sensible so I may try it your way first.

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post #22416 of 27673 Old 04-25-2017, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
Interesting. The guy who gave the advice is perhaps our most knowledgeable poster about Yamaha receivers and YPAO but I have no idea how expert he is with REW. I'll take your suggestion under advisement anyway. It sounds sensible so I may try it your way first.
There is one caveat WRT the steps I outlined. Applying EQ to the sub channel prior to running auto room calibration is the recommended approach when the EQ is happening in an external device, like a 2x4. In your case, I believe you are going to use EQ bands in the AVR. What I don't know is if the AVR EQ is disabled while YPAO is running. If it is, then doing the EQ in advance doesn't work. The alternative would be to apply the EQ after YPAO completes. Either way, use REW to assess how well the EQ is working.

Another alternative, should this approach not work well, would be to purchase the MiniDSP 2x4 and use REW's automated EQ tool to create the filters for it. At $100, the 2x4 is a fairly reasonable, and certainly useful, add-on. Good luck!
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post #22417 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 01:55 AM
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Is it best practice to move the couch when running Dirac as there are mic positions behind and below the sweet spot?
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post #22418 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Foggy1 View Post
Is it best practice to move the couch when running Dirac as there are mic positions behind and below the sweet spot?
When you say there are positions behind and below the MLP, these are positions you have chosen. You can avoid this by making the positions behind the MLP the "higher" mic positions, and make the "lower" positions to the side and in front of the MLP. There is flexibility in mic positioning, as long as you follow the general guidelines. I find that the calibration results are not overly sensitive WRT the mic positioning.
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post #22419 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
When you say there are positions behind and below the MLP, these are positions you have chosen. You can avoid this by making the positions behind the MLP the "higher" mic positions, and make the "lower" positions to the side and in front of the MLP. There is flexibility in mic positioning, as long as you follow the general guidelines. I find that the calibration results are not overly sensitive WRT the mic positioning.
That certainly makes life easier
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post #22420 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
There is one caveat WRT the steps I outlined. Applying EQ to the sub channel prior to running auto room calibration is the recommended approach when the EQ is happening in an external device, like a 2x4. In your case, I believe you are going to use EQ bands in the AVR. What I don't know is if the AVR EQ is disabled while YPAO is running. If it is, then doing the EQ in advance doesn't work. The alternative would be to apply the EQ after YPAO completes. Either way, use REW to assess how well the EQ is working.

Another alternative, should this approach not work well, would be to purchase the MiniDSP 2x4 and use REW's automated EQ tool to create the filters for it. At $100, the 2x4 is a fairly reasonable, and certainly useful, add-on. Good luck!
Just want to make sure I understand this (have gone back and forth with some folks a few times on this topic). I am using the MCACC feature of my Pioneer VSX-44 to apply AVR EQ and using my 2x4HD to apply PEQ Filters based on running REW and creating filters from there.

What I've always done is this:
  1. Turn Off EQ on the AVR completely
  2. Bypass 2x4HD (direct AVR to FV15HP LFE In)
  3. Run REW Sweeps
  4. Create PEQ filter file in REW
  5. Apply Filter to 2x4 HD and run Sub through it.
  6. Run new Sweep
  7. Repeat steps 2 - 6 until happy with results
  8. Run MCACC on AVR and turn on EQ

Are you saying that rather than that order, I should be doing this?:
  1. Bypass 2x4HD (direct AVR to FV15HP LFE In)
  2. Run MCACC on AVR and turn on EQ
  3. Run REW Sweeps
  4. Create PEQ filter file in REW
  5. Apply Filter to 2x4 HD and run Sub through it.
  6. Run new Sweep
  7. Repeat steps 2 - 6 until happy with results

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post #22421 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 09:27 AM
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I think I am finally happy with how things sound bass wise...

To give a quick rundown I've got a Denon X4100 and 2 subs. A Dayton Ultimax 18 in a 4 cubic foot box, and 4 Infinity 1262's wired as a single 4 ohm load in a box about 6 cubic feet total. Each sub as its own bridged Crown XLS2000 to drive it, and both Crowns are wired to a dedicated 15 amp breaker (might be 20 but think its 15). The Dayton sub is in the right front corner and the infinities are at the rear left along the wall with the stairs (see pics below).







The Infinity box is located below this sofa table I built



Here is what I did.

1. Connect the Sub1 and Sub 2 outputs from the Denon to the 2 inputs on the MiniDSP, and connect a single sub to each set of output on the MiniDSP
2. Run XT32
3. Set Xover on fronts to 250, LFE to 250
4. In the Denon adjust the distance settings between the subs to ensure they are summing constructively. In my case this meant adding case 4 feet to the distance for my Dayton sub in the corner
5. Measure the combined sub response across all three main seats via REW
6. Use REW to generate a average response
7. Use the EQ feature in REW to generate filters to put in the MiniDSP to even out response. Export those filters to a file.
8. Import filters into MiniDSP
9. Re-Measure all 3 seating locations to see if they are fairly close in response (they were)
10. Add in a Shelf filter to boost response below 30hz by 12db* (which is a lot BUT well...... its me....)
**If its too much, I can always tweak it later without having to redo much besides connect my laptop to the Mini and program it, which is REALLY REALLY NICE
11. Re-Measure to ensure all 3 seats response increased right
12. Re-Engage 80hz crossover on Mains
13. Measure response (looks pretty decent)
**At this point I tested a couple movies and was disappointed in the response.
14. I added a LFE boost to the signal of 9db in the Denon
**At this point I rested a few movies and was MUCH HAPPIER with the response. And I'm still not getting above 3 lights on the XLS so I think I'm ok.......

Here goes my REW graphs...

After redoing XT32 I took measurements at my 3 main listening positions. I increased the sub crossover to 250hz and the LFE to 250. Here are the results across all three seats:



Using the middle seat for distance tweaks I measured a bunch of different distances and settled on 20.9 as it was the most constructive. Adding additional feet didn't really make much of a difference. I also measured subtracting 2 feet from the distance on the Dayton and it really jacked up the response. I have the measurement but didnt show it in this picture.



Taking that distance and measuring across all three seats I got this



I then averaged that response and used that average in REW to create the EQ filters to add to the MiniDSP. I dont have a screenshot (but I think I have measurements) of how the response looked after applying the EQ filters only. I then added a initial low shelf filter via the MiniDSP to the response and got this...



From there I remeasured the front three seats with the Left Speaker + Sub and Right Speaker + Sub for a total of 6 measurements. Averaging those responses per speaker resulted in this graph.



I'm was fairly happy with that graph.... however in real life it didnt play right, so I added more boost via the Denon to the tune of 9db.... I am MUCH happier than that.

However I may need to tweak more and lower things down.... when The Muppets are hammering on the bass.... well it kinda sounds wrong lol...

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Last edited by EndersShadow; 04-26-2017 at 09:44 AM.
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post #22422 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 10:39 AM
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so I added more boost via the Denon to the tune of 9db
Pretty much par for the course. You will want to remeasure, checking for distortion at the low end. You may be better off boosting (more narrowly) with the miniDSP.
Time to enjoy the fruits of your labors!
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post #22423 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
I think I am finally happy with how things sound bass wise...

....10. Add in a Shelf filter to boost response below 30hz by 12db* (which is a lot BUT well...... its me....)
**If its too much, I can always tweak it later without having to redo much besides connect my laptop to the Mini and program it, which is REALLY REALLY NICE
Thanks for the detailed info. Couple of questions for you. First, how do you add the Shelf Filter? Is that something you do in the MiniDSP 2x4 HD?

Second, what is the floor noise db in your room, the graphs look to be hovering at max around 75db, but I thought the guide said usually 40db difference between floor (silence) and pink noise test tone on sub are ideal. My graphs usually rise to around 90db for this reason since my floor hovers around 50db.

Also, what is the difference between increasing db in the 2x4 HD vs. LFE setting on AVR?
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post #22424 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Pretty much par for the course. You will want to remeasure, checking for distortion at the low end. You may be better off boosting (more narrowly) with the miniDSP.
Time to enjoy the fruits of your labors!
Michael
Thank you sir. And how would distortion show up, or would I be able to see that in my REW measurements?

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post #22425 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 10:55 AM
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Also - while I'm in the question asking mood. Anyone know the difference between applying PEQ to the input vs the output? I guess this would just be for using multiples if you had 1 in and 4 out you could apply same PEQ to input which would apply it to all outputs, or allow you to apply separate PEQ per output?

Also, any reason to use the Xover settings on the output tab in MiniDSP 2x4HD?



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| 7.2.4 Photos (Updated Photos 1/5) | Frequency Response | Visual: LG 65” B7A OLED | Elite VMAX-2 Electric 120" | Optoma GT1080 Proj |
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| Front/Rear Heights: 4x Polk T15 | In-Ceiling: 2x Micca M-8C | Subs: 2x Rythmik FV15HP |
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post #22426 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 10:56 AM
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Why eq flat when the Fletcher-Munson curves (AIUI) show that our hearing is anything but "flat."



Wouldn't it be possible to load a house curve into REW to change the target curve to reflect this?
Wouldn't it sound "better"?

Michael
Isn't this what Audyssey's Dynamic EQ tries to accomplish? I don't use it in the media room but I am going to replace my Yamaha with a Denon in the den and see if I can get some more boom while my son is watching Disney and Nick Jr.
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Interesting. The guy who

gave the advice is perhaps our most knowledgeable poster about Yamaha receivers and YPAO but I have no idea how expert he is with REW. I'll take your suggestion under advisement anyway. It sounds sensible so I may try it your way first.
I wonder if it has something to do with the sub distances. It may calculate them more accurately with the method described. I don't use YPAO (older version, no RSC) just manual PEQ.

Once YPAO is all finished I would save it to a memory slot (you'll have the baseline to cone back too if needed). Then you can then refine the sub EQ and save it to another memory slot. Or, you get lucky and YPAO does the job (±3dB is awesome), no need to tweak further unless you want a rising house curve.

Last, check the blend with the speakers at the crossover point and SDT (Sub Distance Tweak). Setting all speakers to the same crossover point can help get the blend right to all speakers.
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post #22427 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Just want to make sure I understand this (have gone back and forth with some folks a few times on this topic). I am using the MCACC feature of my Pioneer VSX-44 to apply AVR EQ and using my 2x4HD to apply PEQ Filters based on running REW and creating filters from there.

What I've always done is this:
  1. Turn Off EQ on the AVR completely
  2. Bypass 2x4HD (direct AVR to FV15HP LFE In)
  3. Run REW Sweeps
  4. Create PEQ filter file in REW
  5. Apply Filter to 2x4 HD and run Sub through it.
  6. Run new Sweep
  7. Repeat steps 2 - 6 until happy with results
  8. Run MCACC on AVR and turn on EQ

Are you saying that rather than that order, I should be doing this?:
  1. Bypass 2x4HD (direct AVR to FV15HP LFE In)
  2. Run MCACC on AVR and turn on EQ
  3. Run REW Sweeps
  4. Create PEQ filter file in REW
  5. Apply Filter to 2x4 HD and run Sub through it.
  6. Run new Sweep
  7. Repeat steps 2 - 6 until happy with results
Sorry if my previous post was poorly worded. I agree completely with the approach you have been using. The difference with what the OP is doing is that he is using internal AVR PEQ, rather than an external device like you and I are. The uncertainty with internal PEQ is whether it is active or defeated when running the calibration.
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post #22428 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 12:42 PM
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@EndersShadow how much boost are you applying (peak) and what is your max MV?
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post #22429 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
And how would distortion show up, or would I be able to see that in my REW measurements?
Believe it or not, it will be under the "Distortion" tab.

As you drag the cursor over the graph, watch the "THD" numbers. Probably <1% for mains, limit for subs has been debated. 10%?
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post #22430 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 01:49 PM
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@EndersShadow how much boost are you applying (peak) and what is your max MV?
Ummm.... boost in which stage? The Denon is applying a 9DB boost under the Subwoofer section. The MiniDSP is applying another 12db boost in a shelf filter starting at 25hz and I have a highpass at 10hz in the MiniDSP with a 24db per octave drop....

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Believe it or not, it will be under the "Distortion" tab.

As you drag the cursor over the graph, watch the "THD" numbers. Probably <1% for mains, limit for subs has been debated. 10%?
Michael
DOH!!! lol... Will check when I get home...

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post #22431 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Ummm.... boost in which stage? The Denon is applying a 9DB boost under the Subwoofer section. The MiniDSP is applying another 12db boost in a shelf filter starting at 25hz and I have a highpass at 10hz in the MiniDSP with a 24db per octave drop....
...
I was asking about total boost, +21dB is an enormous amount. What is your max MV?
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post #22432 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 02:41 PM
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I was asking about total boost, +21dB is an enormous amount. What is your max MV?
That is certainly an understatement, Matt!

Also, immediately after my discussion with Citsur86 regarding the recommended order of applying external EQ to the sub channel, in which I suggested applying EQ before running automated room correction, it is interesting that Enders posted results in which he did exactly the opposite. I wish we could come up with consistent practices in this thread.
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post #22433 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Ummm.... boost in which stage? The Denon is applying a 9DB boost under the Subwoofer section. The MiniDSP is applying another 12db boost in a shelf filter starting at 25hz and I have a highpass at 10hz in the MiniDSP with a 24db per octave drop....



DOH!!! lol... Will check when I get home...
The attached screenshot shows a typical sub distortion measurement. Set the AVR MV=0, measure at -12dBFS 15-300HZ. Place the cursor on 20Hz and read the THD measurement in the legend. In the example below, total harmonic distortion is 18.9%, which is pretty high.
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post #22434 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I was asking about total boost, +21dB is an enormous amount. What is your max MV?
No idea what MV is or where I would find it....... happy to do what I can if someone helps me figure out how to get that.

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That is certainly an understatement, Matt!

Also, immediately after my discussion with Citsur86 regarding the recommended order of applying external EQ to the sub channel, in which I suggested applying EQ before running automated room correction, it is interesting that Enders posted results in which he did exactly the opposite. I wish we could come up with consistent practices in this thread.
I understand the frustration, however the previous day I had followed similar steps and was not as happy with the results compared to doing it this way.

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The attached screenshot shows a typical sub distortion measurement. Set the AVR MV=0, measure at -12dBFS 15-300HZ. Place the cursor on 20Hz and read the THD measurement in the legend. In the example below, total harmonic distortion is 18.9%, which is pretty high.
That entire first sentence is greek to me. I pull up the measurement I took of my Left Speaker + Sub and click on Distortion and see different harmonics and whatnot graphed. I'm guessing thats not the same as what your looking for correct?

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post #22435 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 03:21 PM
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Here is my first attempt to give you want you want.... All my measurements were with the volume on my Denon at 50 which is normally about as loud as we get. I realized thats not maxed out, and not sure if thats the right volume to measure at, but its what I've done so far.

Also these measurements are NOT showing the Denon boost. I dont have time to redo those measurements right now, had a rare 2 days to myself due to being off work so was able to take these measurements.

Might be able to sneak some more tonight, so if doing this wrong, someone help me. Keep in mind I cant go full tilt volume wise with 2 kids, 3 dogs and a wife in the house.

Left Speaker:

This cant be right as putting the cursor at 20hz shows THD 0.893%



Right Speaker:

This cant be right as putting the cursor at 20hz shows THD 1%


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Last edited by EndersShadow; 04-26-2017 at 03:24 PM.
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post #22436 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 03:27 PM
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That's fine. 90dB is plenty loud (for some of us, anyway ).
Now click on the graph above 20Hz and see what it says under THD.
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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #22437 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 03:31 PM
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Did mine after (during) your edit.
The only thing you're doing "wrong" is not running the test at 120dB.

Some other time, perhaps.
Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #22438 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Here is my first attempt to give you want you want.... All my measurements were with the volume on my Denon at 50 which is normally about as loud as we get. I realized thats not maxed out, and not sure if thats the right volume to measure at, but its what I've done so far.

Also these measurements are NOT showing the Denon boost. I dont have time to redo those measurements right now, had a rare 2 days to myself due to being off work so was able to take these measurements.
Let me translate my first sentence. First of all "MV" means "Master Volume", the volume control on your AVR. Some of us have the volume indicator configured to go from -80 to zero, where zero is loudest. Yours is configured differently, and a level of 50 is probably considerably lower than zero on my AVR.

What we are lookiing for is a measurement of the sub channel only, which is HDMI4 in REW. The -12dBFS is the output level of the REW test sweep, and is the default value. So take your sub only measurement with the default -12dBFS measurement level, with the AVR MV as loud as you can stand it. Also, since we are interested in "worst case", you should take the measurement with the bass boost you reported earlier (+9dB in the AVR).

When the measurement has finished, place the cursor on the 20Hz level and read the THD number in the legend. Does this make sense now?
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post #22439 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Did mine after (during) your edit.
The only thing you're doing "wrong" is not running the test at 120dB.

Some other time, perhaps.
Michael
Lol.... trust me it will happen just not when kids and wife are home lol...

I'm trying to get my Dad over for a "MANLY MOVIE NIGHT" to listen to some action movies
full tilt with really bad for you great greasy tasty food lol....


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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Here is my first attempt to give you want you want.... All my measurements were with the volume on my Denon at 50 which is normally about as loud as we get. I realized thats not maxed out, and not sure if thats the right volume to measure at, but its what I've done so far.

Also these measurements are NOT showing the Denon boost. I dont have time to redo those measurements right now, had a rare 2 days to myself due to being off work so was able to take these measurements.
Let me translate my first sentence. First of all "MV" means "Master Volume", the volume control on your AVR. Some of us have the volume indicator configured to go from -80 to zero, where zero is loudest. Yours is configured differently, and a level of 50 is probably considerably lower than zero on my AVR.

What we are lookiing for is a measurement of the sub channel only, which is HDMI4 in REW. The -12dBFS is the output level of the REW test sweep, and is the default value. So take your sub only measurement with the default -12dBFS measurement level, with the AVR MV as loud as you can stand it. Also, since we are interested in "worst case", you should take the measurement with the bass boost you reported earlier (+9dB in the AVR).

When the measurement has finished, place the cursor on the 20Hz level and read the THD number in the legend. Does this make sense now?
That does make much more sense. Thank you. This is all fairly new to me.

You are correct in that the MAX volume my Denon X4100 goes to is 98 (just checked). It starts at 0 and increases in incremental of .5. I have it limited to 80 so if the kids get ahold of the volume they won't kill everything by going all the way up.

Given that 98 is the max and I get to 70-75 max when listening even loud, I'd guess that's why my distortion is so low, because I'm not really listening that loud or sending a large enough signal to clip my the MiniDSP inputs or the Crowns inputs from the MjniDSP. THD will likely skyrocket the higher the volume gets I'd guess.

I will try to get some higher volume measurements maybe this weekend when my oldest is at soccer with mommy and I can get things setup and move far away for testing with the littlest one and borrow some hearing protection for her.

I thank you guys for your continued patience.
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post #22440 of 27673 Old 04-26-2017, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Lol.... trust me it will happen just not when kids and wife are home lol...

I'm trying to get my Dad over for a "MANLY MOVIE NIGHT" to listen to some action movies
full tilt with really bad for you great greasy tasty food lol....




That does make much more sense. Thank you. This is all fairly new to me.

You are correct in that the MAX volume my Denon X4100 goes to is 98 (just checked). It starts at 0 and increases in incremental of .5. I have it limited to 80 so if the kids get ahold of the volume they won't kill everything by going all the way up.

Given that 98 is the max and I get to 70-75 max when listening even loud, I'd guess that's why my distortion is so low, because I'm not really listening that loud or sending a large enough signal to clip my the MiniDSP inputs or the Crowns inputs from the MjniDSP. THD will likely skyrocket the higher the volume gets I'd guess.

I will try to get some higher volume measurements maybe this weekend when my oldest is at soccer with mommy and I can get things setup and move far away for testing with the littlest one and borrow some hearing protection for her.

I thank you guys for your continued patience.


Seems to me since you listen in most situations at low to medium loudness, but love bass, you boost the bass so you get the benefit of it even when the volume isn't loud? If that's the case I think you're fine, just be careful if you ever turn it up loud as you may wind up with a less than ideal (highly distorted) sub response.

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