Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 826 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #24751 of 27672 Old 05-08-2018, 02:17 PM
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That's weird two AVRs show very different graphs. I would assume you already level matched and spl matched both equally....but still that is weird between the two AVRs to be that different especially being 15 to 20db off? Also the 2k to 3k shows a sudden rise in spl in the denon. Maybe that's why you mentioned the denon sounded bright/harsh when you got new AVR?

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post #24752 of 27672 Old 05-08-2018, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryceDH View Post
Is compression one of those things where "you'll know it when you hear it"?

I like the idea of visually seeing the compression on a graph as i dont exactly know what im listening for. Also, figured thd would be good to know. I feel like i know enough to be dangerous (just from reading a lot on AVS) but am relatively inexperienced.
If the sub has built-in compression, it’s basically designed to keep you from blowing it up, figuratively-speaking. My experience with it has been, at some point you keep increasing the system volume, but you notice that the sub stops getting louder. That’s not the thing you can measure on a graph.

However... What can be measured in that situation, if the signal is known to be non-linear – in other words, in the case of a movie explosion, it likely has more energy at 30-40 Hz than it does at 70 Hz, and giving a graph that reflects the same – the compression will stop increasing the 30-40 Hz level, while the upper frequencies that are at a lower level, will continue to increase until their level matches that of the lower frequencies. So, a measurement of that would show a flatter graph than would be seen at a lower level signal that’s not compressing.

That’s assuming the sub compression works the same as the dbx compressor in my bass guitar rack...

Hope that makes sense...

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post #24753 of 27672 Old 05-08-2018, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
That's weird two AVRs show very different graphs. I would assume you already level matched and spl matched both equally....but still that is weird between the two AVRs to be that different especially being 15 to 20db off? Also the 2k to 3k shows a sudden rise in spl in the denon. Maybe that's why you mentioned the denon sounded bright/harsh when you got new AVR?
Yeah between the two with the RCA cable, the graphs were way different, not just a little. Both were wherever Audyssey XT32 set them level wise. I usually run my REW sweeps at -20db with subs not hot. It does look like the Onkyo was about 5db higher on average, but I was mainly just looking for how the graphs compared. One thing for sure, the RCA graph on the Denon was not good in comparison.

HDMI seems to have fixed that though and are about as smooth as I could hope for in my room. Those graphs with HDMI were the same cal from Audyssey, so there was obviously something going on with the RCA. The 6300hz only has one RCA intput (on the front I believe anyway) and I was using that (AUX1).

But yes, when I first listened to the Denon it did sound brighter than the Onkyo and still does a little bit. Voices sounded a little more thin and not quite as smooth as on the Onkyo. I don't know if it was those first couple of cals or if I'm just getting used to it, but voices sound just about right to me now. Overall sound is great and is more exciting than the Onkyo 5010 (which I loved), even in straight 7.1, but no contest at all in ATMOS. Atmos freaking kills! I think the overall sound though (not even talking about Atmos), the Denon seems to have more texture to it or something (along with better panning, steering, etc), compared to a little smoother sound of my older Onkyo 5010. Both are pretty aggressive though.

I think it's just a sound signature thing between brands for sure, and maybe even models of the same brand. But speaking of sound signature ---- Denon and Marantz has a new Editor App that seems to be pretty darn cool. I've ran a few cals with it because it can give a LOT of flexibility over the regular Audyssey in the AVR itself. It allows you to do all kinds of stuff post Audy, which is way cool.

But that said (and I don't know this is a bad thing or not, in fact I may actually prefer it), when running Audy with the Editor App, it changes the sound a little bit surprisingly. I kid you not, its a little different sounding. The best I can explain it is, it's a little warmer, maybe a little more forward and less edgy sounding, but still has plenty of texture. Actually overall I think I like it better, but does make the voices sound a bit different as well. I'm still trying to decide if I like that part better or not. I know one thing, its not in the 1000khz and over that's effecting the voices from the editors app . I've messed with cutting off Audyssey's correction at various points all the way from 20000khz down to 1000khz and doesn't seem to be it. I haven't went tried lower yet. Has anyone else experienced this with the Auddyssey Editors App compared to the normal Audyssey in the AVR?

That's just one of many cool features that you can do with the Editor app, is to customize what ever channels you want and wherever you want room correction to apply up too. Example, you could just have Audy correction for your bass only and leave the rest untouched, select MBC on and off, etc.
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post #24754 of 27672 Old 05-08-2018, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Yeah between the two with the RCA cable, the graphs were way different, not just a little. Both were wherever Audyssey XT32 set them level wise. I usually run my REW sweeps at -20db with subs not hot. It does look like the Onkyo was about 5db higher on average, but I was mainly just looking for how the graphs compared. One thing for sure, the RCA graph on the Denon was not good in comparison.

HDMI seems to have fixed that though and are about as smooth as I could hope for in my room. Those graphs with HDMI were the same cal from Audyssey, so there was obviously something going on with the RCA. The 6300hz only has one RCA intput (on the front I believe anyway) and I was using that (AUX1).

But yes, when I first listened to the Denon it did sound brighter than the Onkyo and still does a little bit. Voices sounded a little more thin and not quite as smooth as on the Onkyo. I don't know if it was those first couple of cals or if I'm just getting used to it, but voices sound just about right to me now. Overall sound is great and is more exciting than the Onkyo 5010 (which I loved), even in straight 7.1, but no contest at all in ATMOS. Atmos freaking kills! I think the overall sound though (not even talking about Atmos), the Denon seems to have more texture to it or something (along with better panning, steering, etc), compared to a little smoother sound of my older Onkyo 5010. Both are pretty aggressive though.

I think it's just a sound signature thing between brands for sure, and maybe even models of the same brand. But speaking of sound signature ---- Denon and Marantz has a new Editor App that seems to be pretty darn cool. I've ran a few cals with it because it can give a LOT of flexibility over the regular Audyssey in the AVR itself. It allows you to do all kinds of stuff post Audy, which is way cool.

But that said (and I don't know this is a bad thing or not, in fact I may actually prefer it), when running Audy with the Editor App, it changes the sound a little bit surprisingly. I kid you not, its a little different sounding. The best I can explain it is, it's a little warmer, maybe a little more forward and less edgy sounding, but still has plenty of texture. Actually overall I think I like it better, but does make the voices sound a bit different as well. I'm still trying to decide if I like that part better or not. I know one thing, its not in the 1000khz and over that's effecting the voices from the editors app . I've messed with cutting off Audyssey's correction at various points all the way from 20000khz down to 1000khz and doesn't seem to be it. I haven't went tried lower yet. Has anyone else experienced this with the Auddyssey Editors App compared to the normal Audyssey in the AVR?

That's just one of many cool features that you can do with the Editor app, is to customize what ever channels you want and wherever you want room correction to apply up too. Example, you could just have Audy correction for your bass only and leave the rest untouched, select MBC on and off, etc.
Did you try another analog input on the Denon such as cd, tape, etc on the back to compare to see if the RCA behavior is the same? Also I'm assuming the Onkyo has hdmi input as well? If so, did you compare hdmi between the two? Or were you using Analog connection since your AVR is pre-hdmi?

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post #24755 of 27672 Old 05-08-2018, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Did you try another analog input on the Denon such as cd, tape, etc on the back to compare to see if the RCA behavior is the same? Also I'm assuming the Onkyo has hdmi input as well? If so, did you compare hdmi between the two? Or were you using Analog connection since your AVR is pre-hdmi?
Nah never did try another analog input on the Denon. That may have helped, IDK. Yep the Onkyo had HDMI as well but I had always just used the RCA and seemed to be fine with that, although I was planning to switch over to HDMI. The RCA trouble on the Denon pushed me to do just that. Nah, once I saw the graphs on the Denon with the HDMI, I didn't try it on the Onkyo since I was satisfied with the results on the Denon. All channels would probably look real similar to the results I posted for the Denon with the HDMI connection. The Onkyo 5010 is a fantastic sounding unit and I enjoyed it for a long time.
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post #24756 of 27672 Old 05-08-2018, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
@SBuger if you are using the latest beta then I don't believe you need soundflower on the Mac
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Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
@SBuger , FYI, I use REW with OSX 10.13.3, and I believe it was on Maverick when I no longer needed Soundflower; you simply:
  1. connect your HDMI cable to the AVR,
  2. launch REW,
  3. go to Preferences, and
  4. select HDMI as the Output Device (and obviously select your mic for Input Device, if it isn't already).

HTH!
Thanks guys for your posts to me on this. @galonzo - you made it sound easy and it was! All connected now with HDMI on the macbook pro and is running great. This macbook is so nice and quite that it almost doesn't seem right compared to my old laptop PC that I was using. I'll get used to it though haha I like it A LOT
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post #24757 of 27672 Old 05-09-2018, 08:02 AM
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You will have to teach me the ropes @SBuger when I upgrade to hdmi connection one of these days! Glad you got it going well!
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post #24758 of 27672 Old 05-09-2018, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Well my main reason to want HDMI (besides wanting to be able to measure all channels very easily), is that my RCA connection was showing that my FR on the new Denon 6300H was VERY funky looking compared to my Onkyo. I was thinking that maybe it was my RCA connection to the Denon or something, or was hoping anyway and didnt have a bunk new AVR or something else going on. Just seemed so weird to me that the two could look soooo different.
When I saw this post, my first thoughts were that measuring the same setup with REW using the same mic, whether with the analog Java drivers, or the ASIO HDMI drivers, the results (in theory) should be the same. So, this morning I ran a test. Here are the results:





Based on this test, my expectations have been confirmed--there is no significant difference between measuring with an analog connection vs. an HDMI connection. This assumes that the analog connection was configured properly as described in the Guide, and that the mic was not moved, of course.

I cannot explain why an Onkyo would measure differently than a Demon, assuming both have the same version of Audyssey, and that both calibrations were done under the same circumstances, with care to use the same mic positions. Of course, this could be difficult to accomplish, and may account for the differences. Unfortunately, I have no way to test this.
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post #24759 of 27672 Old 05-09-2018, 12:56 PM
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^^^

Cool, yep they should measure identical (or very, very close) I would think, like what you have shown. Obviously something was up with the RCA connection I was using with the Denon's Aux1 RCA Input on the front (I didn't try a different one and make sure it was configured right, I should have). I didn't really care that the two weren't identical between the Onk and Denon, it's just they were extremely different and that wasn't right. HDMI totally fixed that though which I was happy about. I had been wanting to move to HDMI anyway and this was the push I needed

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post #24760 of 27672 Old 05-14-2018, 06:12 PM
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I'm experimenting with crossovers (long story here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post56182716) and have REW sweeps with the old xo, the new xo, and no xo:
https://www.4shared.com/s/fjwkOd6hEgm
It looks to me like the new xo adds some distortion at the high end and offers little benefit, but I'd appreciate the opinion of the collective.
Thanks.
Michael

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Don't guess, measure: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post22789786
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post #24761 of 27672 Old 05-14-2018, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I'm experimenting with crossovers (long story here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post56182716) and have REW sweeps with the old xo, the new xo, and no xo:
https://www.4shared.com/s/fjwkOd6hEgm
It looks to me like the new xo adds some distortion at the high end and offers little benefit, but I'd appreciate the opinion of the collective.
Thanks.
Michael
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post #24762 of 27672 Old 05-15-2018, 07:19 AM
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Hmm. Let's try Dropbox:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6g9twajr9...20xo.mdat?dl=1
Thanks, Jerry.
Michael

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post #24763 of 27672 Old 05-15-2018, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I'm experimenting with crossovers (long story here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post56182716) and have REW sweeps with the old xo, the new xo, and no xo:
https://www.4shared.com/s/fjwkOd6hEgm
It looks to me like the new xo adds some distortion at the high end and offers little benefit, but I'd appreciate the opinion of the collective.
Thanks.
Michael
those measurements look odd; very noisy, loads of dips, odd FR. I'd say distortion is the least of the concerns
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post #24764 of 27672 Old 05-15-2018, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I'm experimenting with crossovers (long story here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post56182716) and have REW sweeps with the old xo, the new xo, and no xo:
https://www.4shared.com/s/fjwkOd6hEgm
It looks to me like the new xo adds some distortion at the high end and offers little benefit, but I'd appreciate the opinion of the collective.
Thanks.
Michael
I agree with Matt--those measurements look very strange. Do the measurements represent a full-range speaker? It would be hard to pick any of the measurements as "best".
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post #24765 of 27672 Old 05-15-2018, 04:06 PM
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Thanks, guys. Measured from about 3 feet in front of the speaker in its usual spot; probably should have been closer to eliminate poor room conditions.
Returning the new crossovers. Interesting experiment, none the less.
Michael

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post #24766 of 27672 Old 05-16-2018, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Thanks, guys. Measured from about 3 feet in front of the speaker in its usual spot; probably should have been closer to eliminate poor room conditions.
Returning the new crossovers. Interesting experiment, none the less.
Michael
Sounds like you've done something fundamentally wrong. I'd recommend reading https://www.amazon.com/Testing-Louds.../dp/1882580176

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post #24767 of 27672 Old 05-17-2018, 06:34 AM
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troubleshooting low frequency drop in spl

I was doing some testing after re-running Audyssey using the app rather than the AVR and for the second time ran into an issue I could not figure out. I ran a sweep of subs only. Audyssey reference with trims at default and DEQ, dynamic volume off. I used the LFE channel. I was playing around a bit with crossovers and sub distance. I noticed that at the lower end of the frequency response I was seeing up to a 5db drop compared with my initial sweeps. The spl difference increases as the frequency decreases. I made sure I put all settings back to how I had them for initial sweeps but couldn't duplicate initial FR sweeps. I am attaching a graph of what I mean. Red is what initial sweeps looked like and blue is what I noticed about 20 min later. These are both sweeps with identical settings, master volume, mic position, etc. I could not get it to look like the initial sweeps. I had a very similar issue several months ago testing my prior dual subs which were SVS PC-12+. Current are PC-4000. So doesn't seem to be a sub issue. Also of note subs are both run wireless on independent sub outs. I'm not sure how to trouble shoot and if it's a measurement issue or a real issue. It sort of looks like I had DEQ on initially and then off but that's not the case. Thanks for any input.
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post #24768 of 27672 Old 05-17-2018, 07:07 AM
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I was doing some testing after re-running Audyssey using the app rather than the AVR and for the second time ran into an issue I could not figure out. I ran a sweep of subs only. Audyssey reference with trims at default and DEQ, dynamic volume off. I used the LFE channel. I was playing around a bit with crossovers and sub distance. I noticed that at the lower end of the frequency response I was seeing up to a 5db drop compared with my initial sweeps. The spl difference increases as the frequency decreases. I made sure I put all settings back to how I had them for initial sweeps but couldn't duplicate initial FR sweeps. I am attaching a graph of what I mean. Red is what initial sweeps looked like and blue is what I noticed about 20 min later. These are both sweeps with identical settings, master volume, mic position, etc. I could not get it to look like the initial sweeps. I had a very similar issue several months ago testing my prior dual subs which were SVS PC-12+. Current are PC-4000. So doesn't seem to be a sub issue. Also of note subs are both run wireless on independent sub outs. I'm not sure how to trouble shoot and if it's a measurement issue or a real issue. It sort of looks like I had DEQ on initially and then off but that's not the case. Thanks for any input.
When you say “initial sweeps”, was that with the same Audyssey calibration? Since the response curve is almost identical, except for the 5dB roll-off, I am assuming both are using the same calibration. You say you were adjusting the crossover and distance settings? Are both measurements with the same settings? Typically, adjustments to sub distance settings would be made while observing the sub+mains measurement, not with subs only measurement. If settings are the same for both measurements, I can’t think of an obvious explanation for the 5dB drop. Why not simply adjust the sub channel trim until you are happy with the output, or at least until you figure out what is going on?

Edit: The sub response looks quite good, actually!
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post #24769 of 27672 Old 05-17-2018, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
When you say “initial sweeps”, was that with the same Audyssey calibration? Since the response curve is almost identical, except for the 5dB roll-off, I am assuming both are using the same calibration. You say you were adjusting the crossover and distance settings? Are both measurements with the same settings? Typically, adjustments to sub distance settings would be made while observing the sub+mains measurement, not with subs only measurement. If settings are the same for both measurements, I can’t think of an obvious explanation for the 5dB drop. Why not simply adjust the sub channel trim until you are happy with the output, or at least until you figure out what is going on?

Edit: The sub response looks quite good, actually!
Yes initial sweeps same calibration. I had been measuring sub + mains during testing sub distances when I noticed the roll off but went back to just a sub only sweep through LFE channel to compare apples to apples and that's what I posted. I'm not sure what could have caused this in the 20 min period of testing.

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post #24770 of 27672 Old 05-17-2018, 07:45 AM
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quick question for mac users.

Does a lighting to HDMI cable work just fine? Thanks!

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post #24771 of 27672 Old 05-17-2018, 07:57 AM
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quick question for mac users.

Does a lighting to HDMI cable work just fine? Thanks!
What does this mean?

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post #24772 of 27672 Old 05-17-2018, 08:08 AM
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What does this mean?
For connecting my receiver with my laptop. My mac only has a lighting connection not HDMI. They make a lighting to HDMI cord. I'm wondering if that works?

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post #24773 of 27672 Old 05-17-2018, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by klimo View Post
For connecting my receiver with my laptop. My mac only has a lighting connection not HDMI. They make a lighting to HDMI cord. I'm wondering if that works?
Macs don't have lightning ports. Those are limited to ios devices. Yours may have a thunderbolt port (my guess) or a USB-C port depending on model. I believe some older macs did not support audio over HDMI but for many years they have. So assuming a recent mac a thunderbolt or USB-C to HDMI should work.
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post #24774 of 27672 Old 05-17-2018, 08:24 AM
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Macs don't have lightning ports. Those are limited to ios devices. Yours may have a thunderbolt port (my guess) or a USB-C port depending on model. I believe some older macs did not support audio over HDMI but for many years they have. So assuming a recent mac a thunderbolt or USB-C to HDMI should work.
You're right. My mistake. Yes. thunderbolt.

Awesome. Sounds good. Thanks!

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post #24775 of 27672 Old 05-17-2018, 10:50 AM
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I was doing some testing after re-running Audyssey using the app rather than the AVR and for the second time ran into an issue I could not figure out. I ran a sweep of subs only. Audyssey reference with trims at default and DEQ, dynamic volume off. I used the LFE channel. I was playing around a bit with crossovers and sub distance. I noticed that at the lower end of the frequency response I was seeing up to a 5db drop compared with my initial sweeps. The spl difference increases as the frequency decreases. I made sure I put all settings back to how I had them for initial sweeps but couldn't duplicate initial FR sweeps. I am attaching a graph of what I mean. Red is what initial sweeps looked like and blue is what I noticed about 20 min later. These are both sweeps with identical settings, master volume, mic position, etc. I could not get it to look like the initial sweeps. I had a very similar issue several months ago testing my prior dual subs which were SVS PC-12+. Current are PC-4000. So doesn't seem to be a sub issue. Also of note subs are both run wireless on independent sub outs. I'm not sure how to trouble shoot and if it's a measurement issue or a real issue. It sort of looks like I had DEQ on initially and then off but that's not the case. Thanks for any input.
Looks to me like the sub trim was decreased. Is your Subwoofer Lvl Adj turned on or off?
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post #24776 of 27672 Old 05-17-2018, 11:09 AM
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Looks to me like the sub trim was decreased. Is your Subwoofer Lvl Adj turned on or off?
I never touched it. It was off. If that was the case I would also think it would be a uniform decrease across the frequency range which it is not. Posted graph is just the LFE channel. I did increase LPF for LFE during sub only sweeps to max of 250hz but that was the same for both posted sweeps and shouldn't change the low end anyway.

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post #24777 of 27672 Old 05-17-2018, 11:37 AM
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post #24778 of 27672 Old 05-17-2018, 02:14 PM
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Very strange. Are you using a mic boom? UMIK-1?
Agree it’s weird. Umik-1 with mic boom.

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post #24779 of 27672 Old 05-17-2018, 08:08 PM
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REW Beta problem

Ok I’m trying to generate filters for a MiniDSP 2x4 hd and got some great help from Austin and was finally were ready to generate some filters but the new beta notice kept popping up so I decided to update. I reloaded the asio4all drivers I was before I had been using the generate many sweeps before, no sound. Could someone give me a direction to go in to look for the problem. I have a MacBook Pro laptop running bootcamp win7

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post #24780 of 27672 Old 05-17-2018, 10:53 PM
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Ok I’m trying to generate filters for a MiniDSP 2x4 hd and got some great help from Austin and was finally were ready to generate some filters but the new beta notice kept popping up so I decided to update. I reloaded the asio4all drivers I was before I had been using the generate many sweeps before, no sound. Could someone give me a direction to go in to look for the problem. I have a MacBook Pro laptop running bootcamp win7
Running any audio software on a virtualized system calls for trouble. Run REW directly in macOS.
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