Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 828 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #24811 of 27588 Old 05-22-2018, 02:48 PM
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Don't you mean LPF @AustinJerry ?
Yes, of course. Corrected.
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post #24812 of 27588 Old 05-24-2018, 01:28 PM
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Help with sub sweeps

Need some help understanding some results of sub sweeps. I ran the subs separately to evaluate the phase. I had them both set to 0, since they were both at the front of the room. The results were the opposite of what I expected. So I inverted the left sub and reran the sweeps. They were now in phase so I re-ran the combined sweep and the results were worse with a big dip at from 55hrz to 65hrz. I’m going to post screenshots as well as a link to just the sub sweeps.
  1. Sub combined sweep with subs in phase and out.
  2. sub phase both set at 0
  3. sub LT phase inverted

Could it be because one is front firing and one is down firing?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ho1mdp9dze...1-18.mdat?dl=0
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post #24813 of 27588 Old 05-24-2018, 03:41 PM
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Veger, that little camera icon at the top left corner of the REW graph, labeled "Capture," will let you save the graph as a .jpg. No need to screen shot everything.

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post #24814 of 27588 Old 05-24-2018, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Why compromise? There is really no sense in investing the time to learn how to use REW to improve your setup if it is based on a compromise.
Hear, hear. Am I the only one who gets irritated with people trying to do this on the cheap? John gives away the software for free, and you can get a laboratory-grade measurement mic for about $100. Plus another $20-30 for a cheap mic stand. So assuming the ownership of a computer, which everyone has, $130 to set yourself up with a powerful software program that speaker designers and acousticians would have killed for a mere 25 years ago. Jeepers, I paid $600 for an AudioControl RTA back in 1996 – what’s that, about $1000 in today’s money? And it won’t do a fraction of what REW can do.

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post #24815 of 27588 Old 05-25-2018, 02:06 PM
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Am I wrong to expect the best response from subwoofers to be when they are in phase?

Last edited by veger69; 05-25-2018 at 02:10 PM.
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post #24816 of 27588 Old 05-25-2018, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by veger69 View Post
Am I wrong to expect the best response from subwoofers to be when they are in phase?
In phase as measured or in phase as "the dials are set the same"?
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post #24817 of 27588 Old 05-25-2018, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
In phase as measured or in phase as "the dials are set the same"?
Well I’m getting the best response when the phase as measured is opposite
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post #24818 of 27588 Old 05-25-2018, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by veger69 View Post
Well I’m getting the best response when the phase as measured is opposite
Yeah, that's "in phase as measured." Unless the subs are exactly the same and exactly the same distance from the measuring spot then expecting them to be in phase without measuring is a bridge too far.

The electronics in the subs take different amounts of time and stuff like that that wreak havoc with phase.
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post #24819 of 27588 Old 05-25-2018, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
Yeah, that's "in phase as measured." Unless the subs are exactly the same and exactly the same distance from the measuring spot then expecting them to be in phase without measuring is a bridge too far.

The electronics in the subs take different amounts of time and stuff like that that wreak havoc with phase.
I question your terminology. If you look at his impulse response measurements, the subs clearly measure with opposite polarity. So not “in phase as measured”. HST, phase relationships are complex. If leaving the two subs with opposite polarity produces the best response measurement, I would certainly leave them alone. I suspect we are in agreement.
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post #24820 of 27588 Old 05-25-2018, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
Yeah, that's "in phase as measured." Unless the subs are exactly the same and exactly the same distance from the measuring spot then expecting them to be in phase without measuring is a bridge too far.

The electronics in the subs take different amounts of time and stuff like that that wreak havoc with phase.
Alright to give you a little more info, the subs are different, one is down firing, one is front firing. They are equal distant from the MLP. I’ve tweaked the delay so the impulse matches. Just to make sure you get what I’m saying, here are the results and the impulse readings for the sweeps
  1. Subs combined measured in phase
  2. Phase measured for #1
  3. Subs combined measured out of phase
  4. Phase measured for #3
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post #24821 of 27588 Old 05-25-2018, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veger69 View Post
Alright to give you a little more info, the subs are different, one is down firing, one is front firing. They are equal distant from the MLP. I’ve tweaked the delay so the impulse matches. Just to make sure you get what I’m saying, here are the results and the impulse readings for the sweeps
  1. Subs combined measured in phase
  2. Phase measured for #1
  3. Subs combined measured out of phase
  4. Phase measured for #3
I guess it doesn’t matter, the #3 sweep is what I’m going to use, but in following Jerry’s guide I would have expected the best response to be with both subs in phase as in pic #2
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post #24822 of 27588 Old 05-25-2018, 06:11 PM
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I guess it doesn’t matter, the #3 sweep is what I’m going to use, but in following Jerry’s guide I would have expected the best response to be with both subs in phase as in pic #2
I can’t follow you. Your previous post seemed to imply four measurements, but you only showed two. Now you say you are going with the number 3 sweep, but I still only see two measurements in your post. Can you see why we might be confused?

Regardless, it doesn’t take rocket science to determine that of the two measurements you posted, the one on the right is the better one.
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post #24823 of 27588 Old 05-25-2018, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I can’t follow you. Your previous post seemed to imply four measurements, but you only showed two. Now you say you are going with the number 3 sweep, but I still only see two measurements in your post. Can you see why we might be confused?

Regardless, it doesn’t take rocket science to determine that of the two measurements you posted, the one on the right is the better one.
There are 4. AVS has been acting a little buggy with attachments.
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post #24824 of 27588 Old 05-25-2018, 07:15 PM
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There are 4. AVS has been acting a little buggy with attachments.
Measurement 3 is clearly the best, regardless of polarity.
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post #24825 of 27588 Old 05-25-2018, 07:26 PM
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There's a lot out there about how one cannot use impulse response to phase align subwoofers. (here's one example) Maybe @veger69 is providing a real world example of all that.

I used the RTA method to align my subs (omg! that was painful) I am over the moon with the results. But I only did it that way because I understood REW's behavior better than when I tried to use its impulse response (my bad, I'm an idiot).
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post #24826 of 27588 Old 05-26-2018, 09:51 AM
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Hi guys its my first day with REW and my umik-1 mic. I just read all 133 pages of austinjerrys guide and took some measurements of my system. For now my speakers are a pair of eD towers mtm center and mtc surrounds. My subs are PSA 15v and eD a2-300. I ran audyssey first and then REW. My room had a ambient around 57-60db and I am posting a couple of graphs and want to know how I did and where to focus on more with austins guide.
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post #24827 of 27588 Old 05-26-2018, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ironcobra View Post
Hi guys its my first day with REW and my umik-1 mic. I just read all 133 pages of austinjerrys guide and took some measurements of my system. For now my speakers are a pair of eD towers mtm center and mtc surrounds. My subs are PSA 15v and eD a2-300. I ran audyssey first and then REW. My room had a ambient around 57-60db and I am posting a couple of graphs and want to know how I did and where to focus on more with austins guide.
Do your self a favor and read the beginning of this thread. I did the same thing a few days ago. It gives some guidelines on posting graphs. For example setting limits for sub graph to 300hrz and db to 5 instead of 10
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post #24828 of 27588 Old 05-26-2018, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by veger69 View Post
Do your self a favor and read the beginning of this thread. I did the same thing a few days ago. It gives some guidelines on posting graphs. For example setting limits for sub graph to 300hrz and db to 5 instead of 10
Thanks for the tip, I think i corrected my graphs.
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post #24829 of 27588 Old 05-27-2018, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironcobra View Post
For now my speakers are a pair of eD towers mtm center and mtc surrounds. My subs are PSA 15v and eD a2-300. I ran audyssey first and then REW. My room had a ambient around 57-60db and I am posting a couple of graphs and want to know how I did and where to focus on more with austins guide.
You left out some important info. What crossover setting(s) are you using? Have you done the sub crawl to place your subwoofers or just set them down in the most convenient place?

There's lots more you can tell us that will make it easier for us to help you. This thing is a game of inches/details. We need the measurements with Audyssey off.
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post #24830 of 27588 Old 05-27-2018, 10:04 AM
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That big dip at 70Hz would concern me. Have you experimented various options to see if you can get rid of it?
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post #24831 of 27588 Old 05-27-2018, 02:31 PM
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Everything is crossed at 80, except my Atmos upfires. Audyssey was on I did a sub crawl and placed both subs in the two corner's I perceived to be the best sounding location. I did notice that huge dip from my left main. What should I start to investigate, could audyssey have something to do with it? Also do the subs look okay? Thanks for the help.
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post #24832 of 27588 Old 05-27-2018, 03:32 PM
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I was able to get pretty good results with 2 subs but the final effect just lacked the gut punch bass I was looking for so I bought another HSU VTF-15H MK2 and installed it where the Outlaw LMF-1 EX was. Front wall, in 1/4 wall length from corner. Because of room size it’s the only position possible, other than the front corners. I moved the LMF-1 to the center of the back wall. Much better bass! However I’m seeing the same 15db hole from 40hrz to 60hrz. What could cause this even in the back sub? I experimented playing single subs in different positions. The front subs never moved more the a foot or two from the original position, but the back sub moved over 6’ and the hole never changed?

Any ideas what causing hole or how to find out?

I also received a warning on filter generation shown in pic #3 is this ok?
  1. Individual sub sweeps showing hole
  2. Eq and filter settings
  3. Warning on filter
  4. Combined sub sweep unfiltered and filtered
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post #24833 of 27588 Old 05-28-2018, 10:35 AM
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I played with placement all morning and this is the best i could do, It still seems pretty bad?
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post #24834 of 27588 Old 05-28-2018, 11:59 AM
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I played with placement all morning and this is the best i could do, It still seems pretty bad?
Well, it is better, since peaks are easier to deal with than dips. I don’t recall, are you using a device in the sub channel that can accept PEQ filters from REW, like a MiniDSP 2x4? Using the REW EQ Tool, i’ll bet you could flatten out those peaks. The 2x4, at $100, is a cost-effective addition for someone trying to get the best bass response.
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post #24835 of 27588 Old 05-28-2018, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironcobra View Post
I played with placement all morning and this is the best i could do, It still seems pretty bad?
Well, it is better, since peaks are easier to deal with than dips. I don’t recall, are you using a device in the sub channel that can accept PEQ filters from REW, like a MiniDSP 2x4? Using the REW EQ Tool, i’ll bet you could flatten out those peaks. The 2x4, at $100, is a cost-effective addition for someone trying to get the best bass response.
I am not using a minidsp but looks like I should consider one...deeper down the rabbit hole we go
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post #24836 of 27588 Old 05-28-2018, 06:15 PM
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Any ideas what causing hole or how to find out?
Did you say what your room shape is? If it's rectangular/square the room simulator in REW might offer some insight.
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post #24837 of 27588 Old 05-28-2018, 08:05 PM
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Did you say what your room shape is? If it's rectangular/square the room simulator in REW might offer some insight.
my room is 16’x12’x9’ sdurani did this measurement for me it’s the length of my room. The subs are at the front and back there shouldn’t be any dips there 45-60hrz
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post #24838 of 27588 Old 05-29-2018, 06:23 AM
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my room is 16’x12’x9’ sdurani did this measurement for me it’s the length of my room. The subs are at the front and back there shouldn’t be any dips there 45-60hrz
Just cause you put subs front and back wall doesn't mean there won't be dips. Its just a good starting point. You would need to play and move subs around and remeasure. Even if you turn the subs 90 degrees while in same spot the measurement would change as well. So play with sub measurements to get it as smooth as possible and even few inches would make big difference on some rooms. No one said this was easy plug and play! This is part of rabbit hole and frustration. lol

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post #24839 of 27588 Old 05-29-2018, 11:04 AM
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Just cause you put subs front and back wall doesn't mean there won't be dips. Its just a good starting point. You would need to play and move subs around and remeasure. Even if you turn the subs 90 degrees while in same spot the measurement would change as well. So play with sub measurements to get it as smooth as possible and even few inches would make big difference on some rooms. No one said this was easy plug and play! This is part of rabbit hole and frustration. lol
thanks erred for the suggestions. I think it has more to do with my room shape listening position and lack of room treatment. I placed the listening position per sdurani plot @5’2” from the back wall. I used REW’s room simulator and it produced this result with a dip from 40 to 60hrz much like the room is actually responding although a little sharper. Adding absorption to walls improved it greatly.
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post #24840 of 27588 Old 05-29-2018, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veger69 View Post
thanks erred for the suggestions. I think it has more to do with my room shape listening position and lack of room treatment. I placed the listening position per sdurani plot @5’2” from the back wall. I used REW’s room simulator and it produced this result with a dip from 40 to 60hrz much like the room is actually responding although a little sharper. Adding absorption to walls improved it greatly.
Room treatments help a lot! But don't be surprised if your graph doesn't match REW predicted response as its for perfect sealed rooms. This is why you must remeasure each time or a billion times for every little change your add in your system or when you move anything such as speakers (even few inches) and/or furniture.

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