Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 844 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #25291 of 27612 Old 08-18-2018, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Thanks but where's R?

The sub response now looks very different than before. Did you place the mic at a different position?
Figured one front would be enough. I'm adding FR below to the rest. Sorry about all these files.



No I haven't drastically changed the mic's position. At most it may be a few inches off.



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post #25292 of 27612 Old 08-18-2018, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
Figured one front would be enough. I'm adding FR below to the rest. Sorry about all these files.



No I haven't drastically changed the mic's position. At most it may be a few inches off.



https://ufile.io/sjkt1
Something's wrong. Sub-HDMI2 80HzXO is about 30ms earlier than Sub-HDMI1 80HzXO and Sub-HDMI3 120HzXO?

You should do something about that very strong reflection in C after 7.3ms. Is it coming from the back wall? If yes then angling the speaker or putting an absorber there can help.

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post #25293 of 27612 Old 08-18-2018, 08:54 AM
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@DaBateman Have you run some kind of room correction before doing measurements? Maybe it's best to disable it and establish a baseline with delays and gains set to zero within the AVR.
What Yamaha model is this?

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post #25294 of 27612 Old 08-18-2018, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
@DaBateman Have you run some kind of room correction before doing measurements? Maybe it's best to disable it and establish a baseline with delays and gains set to zero within the AVR.
What Yamaha model is this?
Yes I have ran YPAO but only distances are set. I've applied crossovers, levels, & EQ myself as YPAO messed everything up.



It had my fronts as large, levels were 2dB off from REW, & EQ was far from "flat" that it suggest.



Also I believe the ART may have been on different channels above as I switched it if I disconnected the speaker that I had it set to.


The files below are with the ART set to HDMI5 (closest side channel to mic)




(w/ YPAO distances, manual PEQ, manual XO, manual levels, same ART for all channels measured)


https://ufile.io/rb3ne




(No YPAO, no level adjustment [all 0dB], no distances [all 1ft], no EQ/PEQ, same ART for all channels measured)


https://ufile.io/3goos

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post #25295 of 27612 Old 08-18-2018, 09:11 AM
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@DaBateman What Yamaha model is this?

Markus

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post #25296 of 27612 Old 08-18-2018, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
@DaBateman What Yamaha model is this?
Yamaha RX-V681



I believe it's 2016 model.

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post #25297 of 27612 Old 08-18-2018, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
(No YPAO, no level adjustment [all 0dB], no distances [all 1ft], no EQ/PEQ, same ART for all channels measured)


https://ufile.io/3goos
Sound from L and C arrives at the same time whereas R arrives about 1.7ms (nearly 2ft) later. Are you sure your speakers and mic are placed properly?

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post #25298 of 27612 Old 08-18-2018, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by rmerlano View Post

I don´t have updated pics of my room, but today will take some to make easy the analysis and will share.

Thanks
@Alan P , I upload 2 videos of my room. If somebody wants to watch them and give me some advice, would be great!

Resurrection Room Videos

Oppo UDP-203 - Receiver Denon X4300H - Projector Optoma UHD65 - Projection Screen Elite Screen Mate White 150" gain 1.1
5 Channels Amplifier Emotiva XPA-5 - NAS Qnap 412 4x3TB Disks.
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post #25299 of 27612 Old 08-18-2018, 08:18 PM
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After observing the back-and-forth discussion between @DaBateman and @markus767 , I decided it might be worthwhile taking a look at the alignment among my main speakers. I have already spent a considerable amount of time using REW to time-align the four subs, but I have never paid much attention to the alignment of the mains.

I took measurements of the LCR speakers with subs turned off, both without Dirac Live (using a blank pre-set on the 88A), and with Dirac Live turned on (i.e. using the delay settings set by Dirac). IMO, the measurements with Dirac Live turned on are the ones to look at, since that is the way I listen to the system. Here is what I found:



While the alignment of the left and right speakers is quite close, the alignment of the center is somewhat behind the other two. As measured by REW, the gap is .277ms.



Now, is this alignment minor, and likely not to be audible, or is it worth attempting to correct? Being slightly OCD, I decided to see if I could get a better alignment. By adding .23ms to the Left, and .29ms to the right, here is what I measure now:



Can't get much closer than this result. I added the delays in the Output Tab on the 88A:



Looking for feedback: was it worth making this minor correction, or should I have trusted what Dirac Live set and not changed anything? And are the slight adjustments likely to be audible or not?
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post #25300 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Looking for feedback: was it worth making this minor correction, or should I have trusted what Dirac Live set and not changed anything?
Did you measure with subs engaged? IR results might look different when the sub is on or off.

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
And are the slight adjustments likely to be audible or not?
Well, can you hear a difference or not?

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post #25301 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Looking for feedback: was it worth making this minor correction, or should I have trusted what Dirac Live set and not changed anything? And are the slight adjustments likely to be audible or not?
I tried that some time ago and (IIRC) the soundstage suffered terribly, almost like switching to mono.

The one thing you don't mention is if you noticed an audible difference yourself.
Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #25302 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 07:03 AM
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Well all of my previous efforts were in vain. We just redecorated the family room where our HT resides, and as part of that added an area rug and moved some of the speakers and subs. I also upgraded the rears to Def Tech SR8080s rather than SR8040s (big difference even without any calibration), the center to a CS8060 rather than CS8040, and acquired an ATI 1805.

System is now:

Front L/R: BP8040ST
Center: CS8060HD
Surround L/R: BP8040ST
Surround Back L/R: SR8080BP
Heights / Atmos: 4 x Polk V60
Subs: 2 x SVS SB2000
AVR: Denon X4300h (Audyssey XT32)
Amp: ATI 1805 powering Front L/C/R and Surround L/R

Given that I'm essentially starting from scratch, I'd like to do everything possible to get this setup exactly right. My thought process is to run Audyssey once so that it can set distances and levels, then get into REW with Audyssey turned off and all speakers set to large (subs turned off). This way I can get a baseline of what the speakers are capable of in my room raw so to speak.

My question is this: given that the 4 towers have powered subs, and the center has a powered woofer, how should I be dialing in the sub volumes on them? Send a full range signal through REW and adjust the sub volume for a flat response? My thought here is that I need to get those 5 speakers as close as possible in volume and response to each other before going any further by adding in the SVS subs, otherwise any EQ work isn't going to be on a level playing field.



Current 7.2.4 Setup: 2 x BP8040ST Front L/R, CS8060HD Center, 2 x BP8040ST Surround L/R, 2 x SR8080BP Rear Surround L/R, 4 x Polk V60 Height, 2 x SVS SB2000 Subs, Denon X4300h AVR, ATI 1805 Amp.
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post #25303 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Did you measure with subs engaged? IR results might look different when the sub is on or off.
Yes, I have those measurements as well. First of all, to briefly review the alignment of the subs, here is the current measurement:





And just for you, Markus:



And here is how the alignment looks when measuring the mains + subs with Dirac on:




I do not understand the impulse response measurements well enough to know why adding the subs would produce an alignment difference. However, it is small enough, and likely smaller than the increments in the delay settings, that I am going to leave it as it is. I certainly don't think there is an audible difference.
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post #25304 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Well, can you hear a difference or not?
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I tried that some time ago and (IIRC) the soundstage suffered terribly, almost like switching to mono.

The one thing you don't mention is if you noticed an audible difference yourself.
Michael

I did quite a bit of listening to music yesterday evening after making the small alignment corrections. My ears are much better at noticing whether something is wrong, rather than hearing slight improvements to what was already very pleasing audio. I did not experience any issues with the soundstage as you did, Michael. Perhaps you owe it to yourself to re-visit the alignment to see if your results might be different.

Bottom line is that everything continues to sound quite good, and I am inclined to leave the alignment adjustments in place.
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post #25305 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Speedie95 View Post
Well all of my previous efforts were in vain. We just redecorated the family room where our HT resides, and as part of that added an area rug and moved some of the speakers and subs. I also upgraded the rears to Def Tech SR8080s rather than SR8040s (big difference even without any calibration), the center to a CS8060 rather than CS8040, and acquired an ATI 1805.

System is now:

Front L/R: BP8040ST
Center: CS8060HD
Surround L/R: BP8040ST
Surround Back L/R: SR8080BP
Heights / Atmos: 4 x Polk V60
Subs: 2 x SVS SB2000
AVR: Denon X4300h (Audyssey XT32)
Amp: ATI 1805 powering Front L/C/R and Surround L/R

Given that I'm essentially starting from scratch, I'd like to do everything possible to get this setup exactly right. My thought process is to run Audyssey once so that it can set distances and levels, then get into REW with Audyssey turned off and all speakers set to large (subs turned off). This way I can get a baseline of what the speakers are capable of in my room raw so to speak.

My question is this: given that the 4 towers have powered subs, and the center has a powered woofer, how should I be dialing in the sub volumes on them? Send a full range signal through REW and adjust the sub volume for a flat response? My thought here is that I need to get those 5 speakers as close as possible in volume and response to each other before going any further by adding in the SVS subs, otherwise any EQ work isn't going to be on a level playing field.
Getting speakers with inbuilt powered subs dialed in can be a bit of a challenge. I personally have no experience with such speakers. Are you saying that the inbuilt subs have a separate gain control from the rest of the drivers? If yes, I would be inclined to measure the level of the sub and the level of the other drivers separately using the REW SPL meter, and adjust the levels so both are the same. I am not sure what signal would be used to measure the levels, but I would start with the AVR speaker level-setting test tones.

With so many woofers in your setup, it may be challenging to find the smoothest bass response, since placements of the LCR speakers is normally done to produce the best imaging and sound stage. Whether this placement yields the flattest bass response as well will be interesting to see. Please post your results here after you have given it a try.
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post #25306 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Getting speakers with inbuilt powered subs dialed in can be a bit of a challenge. I personally have no experience with such speakers. Are you saying that the inbuilt subs have a separate gain control from the rest of the drivers? If yes, I would be inclined to measure the level of the sub and the level of the other drivers separately using the REW SPL meter, and adjust the levels so both are the same. I am not sure what signal would be used to measure the levels, but I would start with the AVR speaker level-setting test tones.

With so many woofers in your setup, it may be challenging to find the smoothest bass response, since placements of the LCR speakers is normally done to produce the best imaging and sound stage. Whether this placement yields the flattest bass response as well will be interesting to see. Please post your results here after you have given it a try.
Yes, each of the 4 towers plus the center have their own separate gain control for the powered woofers. In the case of the towers it's an 8" woofer with two 8" passive radiators, and the center has an 8" upfiring woofer. Last time I tried to level match the towers to get a flat response (I believe it was flattish down to around 45Hz at 80dB) Audyssey subsequently set the front towers to a 200Hz crossover (!) and the side surround towers to 40Hz which made zero sense. I had the Audyssey mic within a couple of inches of the UMIK-1 that I was using with REW. We'll see what happens this time.

Of course complicating things even further is that once the towers and center are all set up to match each other, or to be as flat as possible, the two "real" subs have to be integrated.

I'll be sure to post the results.



Current 7.2.4 Setup: 2 x BP8040ST Front L/R, CS8060HD Center, 2 x BP8040ST Surround L/R, 2 x SR8080BP Rear Surround L/R, 4 x Polk V60 Height, 2 x SVS SB2000 Subs, Denon X4300h AVR, ATI 1805 Amp.
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post #25307 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Speedie95 View Post
Yes, each of the 4 towers plus the center have their own separate gain control for the powered woofers. In the case of the towers it's an 8" woofer with two 8" passive radiators, and the center has an 8" upfiring woofer. Last time I tried to level match the towers to get a flat response (I believe it was flattish down to around 45Hz at 80dB) Audyssey subsequently set the front towers to a 200Hz crossover (!) and the side surround towers to 40Hz which made zero sense. I had the Audyssey mic within a couple of inches of the UMIK-1 that I was using with REW. We'll see what happens this time.

Of course complicating things even further is that once the towers and center are all set up to match each other, or to be as flat as possible, the two "real" subs have to be integrated.

I'll be sure to post the results.
Level-match to get the same SPL level, not the flattest response. Strange that Audyssey would suggest a 200Hz crossover. When you measure one of the towers, set to "Large" and with Audyssey turned off, at what frequency does the response curve go -3dB? Perhaps you could post a screenshot of the measurement? Do the in-built subs have a separate signal connection, or do both the sub and other drivers get the same signal? And if all drivers get the same signal, I would set the crossover down to 40Hz and run a measurement with Audyssey turned on. Post that screenshot as well, please.
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post #25308 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I did quite a bit of listening to music yesterday evening after making the small alignment corrections. My ears are much better at noticing whether something is wrong, rather than hearing slight improvements to what was already very pleasing audio. I did not experience any issues with the soundstage as you did, Michael. Perhaps you owe it to yourself to re-visit the alignment to see if your results might be different.

Bottom line is that everything continues to sound quite good, and I am inclined to leave the alignment adjustments in place.
I just set up a second pre-set on the 88A with the same Dirac project. The only difference between the two pre-sets is the alignment adjustment for the mains. This allows me to run an A-B comparison (although not instantaneous). I don't hear a difference. Perhaps I have tin ears?
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post #25309 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 01:53 PM
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Level-match to get the same SPL level, not the flattest response. Strange that Audyssey would suggest a 200Hz crossover. When you measure one of the towers, set to "Large" and with Audyssey turned off, at what frequency does the response curve go -3dB? Perhaps you could post a screenshot of the measurement? Do the in-built subs have a separate signal connection, or do both the sub and other drivers get the same signal? And if all drivers get the same signal, I would set the crossover down to 40Hz and run a measurement with Audyssey turned on. Post that screenshot as well, please.
Did an Audyssey 3 position calibration, mostly to set the distances since I'm starting over. Then I started measuring with REW with Audyssey turned off, both subs turned off, and all speakers set to large. I played with the gain on each speaker (except the rear surrounds which don't have them) until the SPLs were as close as I could get them. Then I took measurements of each speaker individually then Front L/R together.

The speakers can have a separate connection to the subs, however I run mine with speaker wire only and let the speakers' internal crossovers handle it.
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Current 7.2.4 Setup: 2 x BP8040ST Front L/R, CS8060HD Center, 2 x BP8040ST Surround L/R, 2 x SR8080BP Rear Surround L/R, 4 x Polk V60 Height, 2 x SVS SB2000 Subs, Denon X4300h AVR, ATI 1805 Amp.
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post #25310 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 02:19 PM
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I see no reason that Audyssey would suggest a high crossover. The speakers seem to be capable down to 40Hz (60Hz for the Center). When you re-ran Audyssey, was it still recommending a high crossover? The problem with a high crossover recommendation is that Audyssey provides no correction below the recommended crossover, and the low frequencies is where room correction is really needed.
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post #25311 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I see no reason that Audyssey would suggest a high crossover. The speakers seem to be capable down to 40Hz (60Hz for the Center). When you re-ran Audyssey, was it still recommending a high crossover? The problem with a high crossover recommendation is that Audyssey provides no correction below the recommended crossover, and the low frequencies is where room correction is really needed.
I just re-ran Audyssey now that the SPL has been matched between all of the towers and the center, or as close as I could get it. This time Audyssey wanted to set the Front L/R, Center, and Surround L/R to large so clearly the problem with the 200Hz crossover was the gains on the towers. Now we're getting somewhere!

Ran tests in REW with Audyssey engaged, Front L/R, Center, and Surround L/R set to large, no subs.
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Current 7.2.4 Setup: 2 x BP8040ST Front L/R, CS8060HD Center, 2 x BP8040ST Surround L/R, 2 x SR8080BP Rear Surround L/R, 4 x Polk V60 Height, 2 x SVS SB2000 Subs, Denon X4300h AVR, ATI 1805 Amp.

Last edited by Speedie95; 08-19-2018 at 03:37 PM.
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post #25312 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 03:33 PM
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(Continuing previous post, didn't want to mix up the attachments).

Then I ran another set with Audyssey engaged, both subs on, the 4 towers set to small and 40Hz crossover, and the center set to small and 60Hz crossover. The rear surrounds were set to an 80Hz crossover (Audyssey's recommendation).

Edited to add: Links to the MDAT files:

https://www.nitrohost.com/REW/8-19-2...y-No-Subs.mdat
https://www.nitrohost.com/REW/8-19-2...y-No-Subs.mdat
https://www.nitrohost.com/REW/8-19-2...ssey-Subs.mdat
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Current 7.2.4 Setup: 2 x BP8040ST Front L/R, CS8060HD Center, 2 x BP8040ST Surround L/R, 2 x SR8080BP Rear Surround L/R, 4 x Polk V60 Height, 2 x SVS SB2000 Subs, Denon X4300h AVR, ATI 1805 Amp.

Last edited by Speedie95; 08-19-2018 at 04:25 PM.
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post #25313 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Speedie95 View Post
(Continuing previous post, didn't want to mix up the attachments).

Then I ran another set with Audyssey engaged, both subs on, the 4 towers set to small and 40Hz crossover, and the center set to small and 60Hz crossover. The rear surrounds were set to an 80Hz crossover (Audyssey's recommendation).
Good progress. Obviously, the original Audyssey calibration was an anomaly.

I would be somewhat concerned with the dips at 35Hz for left and right, and one at 65Hz for the right.

To isolate what is causing the dip, I would temporarily disconnect the sub drivers in the LCR speakers, then re-measure with only the two stand-alone subs. Then reverse the process--turn off the stand-alone subs and re-measure with the sub drivers in the LCR. If the stand-alone's are the culprit, consider moving them to a different location. If the LCR's are the culprit, consider raising the crossovers to at least 60Hz, and try 80Hz. It's all about detective work now.
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post #25314 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Good progress. Obviously, the original Audyssey calibration was an anomaly.

I would be somewhat concerned with the dips at 35Hz for left and right, and one at 65Hz for the right.

To isolate what is causing the dip, I would temporarily disconnect the sub drivers in the LCR speakers, then re-measure with only the two stand-alone subs. Then reverse the process--turn off the stand-alone subs and re-measure with the sub drivers in the LCR. If the stand-alone's are the culprit, consider moving them to a different location. If the LCR's are the culprit, consider raising the crossovers to at least 60Hz, and try 80Hz. It's all about detective work now.
Those dips are a little odd as they don't appear, or at least aren't so prominent, when the standalone subs are off and/or Audyssey isn't engaged. Taking the Front Left as an example:
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Current 7.2.4 Setup: 2 x BP8040ST Front L/R, CS8060HD Center, 2 x BP8040ST Surround L/R, 2 x SR8080BP Rear Surround L/R, 4 x Polk V60 Height, 2 x SVS SB2000 Subs, Denon X4300h AVR, ATI 1805 Amp.
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post #25315 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 05:47 PM
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Those dips are a little odd as they don't appear, or at least aren't so prominent, when the standalone subs are off and/or Audyssey isn't engaged. Taking the Front Left as an example:
Welcome to the world of peculiar bass response. No telling what the interaction among all the bass drivers is causing. No disrespect, but this is exactly why I have avoided towers with in-built subs. A alternative could have been a bookshelf speaker with the same mid and high frequency drivers, and the money saved spent on a couple of additional stand-alone subs. I have towers as well and if I were purchasing new speakers any time soon, I would not be getting towers again. As it is, I cross over at 100Hz and let my four subs handle the low frequencies.
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post #25316 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 08:40 PM
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After observing the back-and-forth discussion between @DaBateman and @markus767 , I decided it might be worthwhile taking a look at the alignment among my main speakers. I have already spent a considerable amount of time using REW to time-align the four subs, but I have never paid much attention to the alignment of the mains.
...
Looking for feedback: was it worth making this minor correction, or should I have trusted what Dirac Live set and not changed anything? And are the slight adjustments likely to be audible or not?
Given that the threshhold for detecting Interaural Time Differences (a tone is presented from two sources at the same level with a delay applied to one source) is frequency dependent, with the minimum detection threshold at about 10us at 500Hz and the frequency at which the threshold is too high to be measured is 1450Hz, a difference in the location of the tone between two speakers may be detectable in that frequency range. That you did not notice any problems with imaging even though the timing of the speakers was different may suggest that your detection threshold is higher—it's probably age dependent to some extent and is something that we all suffer from.

There was a small study done a few years ago that investigated ITD—and the works of others on the same subject—that was published in a paper from the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America entitled, "Human interaural time difference thresholds for sine tones: The high-frequency limit". It's an interesting read.

What your test does show most admirably is that with experience using REW, proper technique, and the right equipment, it is possible to time align speakers almost perfectly. I would say that it was well worth the effort.
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post #25317 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 08:54 PM
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^ Thank you for the suggested reading, Sam.
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post #25318 of 27612 Old 08-19-2018, 09:39 PM
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Interesting. My question would be, is it a shortcoming of Dirac that it did not achieve the same result? It should be able to.

That leads to another issue: those of us with Dirac-enabled AVRs may not have the same ability to fine-tune delays like you did in the MiniDSP unit. Hopefully the result is close enough that our ears can't discern the issue.

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post #25319 of 27612 Old 08-20-2018, 07:46 AM
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Interesting. My question would be, is it a shortcoming of Dirac that it did not achieve the same result? It should be able to.

That leads to another issue: those of us with Dirac-enabled AVRs may not have the same ability to fine-tune delays like you did in the MiniDSP unit. Hopefully the result is close enough that our ears can't discern the issue.
First of all, the adjustment was quite small. .3ft or .29ms is not a big adjustment. Second, as I mentioned, I am not sure I hear any difference when comparing with and without the adjustment. There are other variables that may be affecting the results, like mic placement.

When I get the chance, I will run a 1-point Dirac calibration and then, without moving the mic, measure how well the speakers are aligned. This would eliminate mic placement and be a more accurate assessment of Dirac’s accuracy.
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post #25320 of 27612 Old 08-20-2018, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
First of all, the adjustment was quite small. .3ft or .29ms is not a big adjustment. Second, as I mentioned, I am not sure I hear any difference when comparing with and without the adjustment. There are other variables that may be affecting the results, like mic placement.

When I get the chance, I will run a 1-point Dirac calibration and then, without moving the mic, measure how well the speakers are aligned. This would eliminate mic placement and be a more accurate assessment of Dirac’s accuracy.
0.3ms can shift a phantom source by about 30% in a standard L/R stereo triangle which is a lot. See http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calcula...tioncurves.htm

Here we have a delay between L and C and R and C but not within L and R. So you won't hear any difference with stereo recordings. You would need to find true multichannel recordings with a center channel. Furthermore the recording would need to provide interchannel time delay cues. Most recordings provide just interchannel level differences.

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Last edited by markus767; 08-20-2018 at 01:39 PM.
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