Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 880 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #26371 of 29478 Old 02-15-2019, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welldun View Post
So would it matter then if we put a sub at each null for that 90hz at opposite ends of the room?
Yes. The more equal the pressure from both sides of the null, the more effective the mode cancellation. Two subs directly opposite each other will do this better than having them spread to opposite ends of the room (front/back).
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post #26372 of 29478 Old 02-15-2019, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Centre line of room width can be on the front wall or back wall or even right behind your couch. As long as you have parallel side walls and the sub is centered between them.

Placing a sub in a null of a room mode will cancel that mode. In your case, there are 2 width modes within subwoofer range that have a null at the midpoint of room width: 45Hz (blue trace) and 136Hz (red trace).



Both those modes will be cancelled, so ALL the peaks & nulls associated with those modes will be gone (or at least minimized).

However, the midpoint of room width happens to be where the 90Hz mode (black trace) is peaking. Placing a subwoofer at a peak location will drive that room mode even harder (peak will be much louder). So you'll have to use EQ to bring down that peak at the MLP.
Great! I'll try that.

One related question: You mention using EQ to bring that 90Hz peak down. I am new to REW and MiniDSP. I looked at the EQ tool in REW and was able to generate filters and successfully load them into my MiniDSP. However, I couldn't figure out how to generate a target curve much different than the downward-sloping default curve in the EQ tool. Are there detailed instructions or guidance somewhere for using this tool?
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post #26373 of 29478 Old 02-15-2019, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seplant View Post
Great! I'll try that.

One related question: You mention using EQ to bring that 90Hz peak down. I am new to REW and MiniDSP. I looked at the EQ tool in REW and was able to generate filters and successfully load them into my MiniDSP. However, I couldn't figure out how to generate a target curve much different than the downward-sloping default curve in the EQ tool. Are there detailed instructions or guidance somewhere for using this tool?
There are brief instructions in the 2x4 guide linked in my sig.
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post #26374 of 29478 Old 02-15-2019, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Yes. The more equal the pressure from both sides of the null, the more effective the mode cancellation. Two subs directly opposite each other will do this better than having them spread to opposite ends of the room (front/back).
Quick question for you... In your opinion, what is the easiest way to measure a room to find its actual mode frequencies and their corresponding null locations?

In the past, I have tried placing a sub and/or a full range loudspeaker in the corner of the room and played different tones based on the predicted modes per the room mode calculator, then walked across the room with an SPL meter to see where the biggest changes occurred. However the process is a bit lengthy (not really a big deal), but the bigger concern is the length of time that one fixed tone would be playing through the sub or speaker. I fear that playing a single tone for a prolonged period of time (as opposed to a sweep or playing pink noise) could cause some damage to the sub or speaker. I'm wondering if there is a safer way to do it, which could also allow me to find the actual nulls and their locations in the room. I understand that the results from the calculator are a great starting point, but given the fact that the room is not a perfect rectangle and the wall surfaces and doors have different absorption qualities which could shift the nulls and frequencies, I'd like to see if there is a different measurement procedure that is better.

Last edited by welldun; 02-15-2019 at 01:54 PM.
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post #26375 of 29478 Old 02-15-2019, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ddigler View Post
Very occasionally it makes a pop or some, staccato sounding, disjointed sweep. Yep seems to act odd from time to time and I hear you on the drivers haha All-in-all its good stuff.

Just wanted to confirm I'm not the only one who gets some odd sounding/looking measurements occasionally. I just disregard and re-measure. Once I get a good one (ie the Poltergeist has been exorcised) I do the same good measurement again at which point they literally look like clones. Thats when I know the ghost is gone and I go on measuring as usual
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I end up having to do this about every fourth measurement, which really slows things down. Sounds like a pretty common occurance for others. Sure would be nice if this bug could be fixed.
A couple of possible causes for that:

- ASIO buffer size is too small
- ASIO4All is being used and it is suffering at the hands of devices whose clock rates don't match very well
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post #26376 of 29478 Old 02-15-2019, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seplant View Post
One related question: You mention using EQ to bring that 90Hz peak down. I am new to REW and MiniDSP. I looked at the EQ tool in REW and was able to generate filters and successfully load them into my MiniDSP. However, I couldn't figure out how to generate a target curve much different than the downward-sloping default curve in the EQ tool.
I found the answer to my question above. Under Target Settings in the REW EQ tool, don't select Subwoofer. Select Full Range.
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post #26377 of 29478 Old 02-15-2019, 08:17 PM
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You can also change the cutoff and slope of the target curve, depending on speaker type.
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post #26378 of 29478 Old 02-15-2019, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ddigler View Post
Any thoughts?
I find sometimes REW switches to the laptop's internal mic. I don't know what causes it and it means many suspect measurements that have to be redone.
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post #26379 of 29478 Old 02-15-2019, 10:56 PM
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I need some help. I've had a second sub for almost a year and still can't find the best placement. I've only had REW for about a month. I am getting a 70hz dip when the second sub is added. I'm exhausted after several hours. I've tried to change the distance and not too much luck and also the sub delay. I have a PSA S3000i and a PSA S3600i.

The red line is both subs together. Green is the S3000i and the blue is the S3600i. Why do i get a dip around 70hz when playing both?

Previously I've just been stacking them since I never can get them to sound good apart. My room isn't perfect but I know I can get a decent response with 1 sub just fine. Adding a second sub has been a challenge. I'm using a Marantz SR7012 and using Sub 1 and Sub 2.
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post #26380 of 29478 Old 02-16-2019, 03:36 AM
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So I’m about to begin playing with placement of my mains but before I do I need a few questions answered.
Is the first step in FR measuring to just find the flattest place for the left or right and placing the other main equally or finding the place where the l/r deviate the least and then moving on from there?
Should I unplug the subs for now while measuring because I have an internal y splitter and haven’t placed the 2 subs properly yet or just ignore the results under 300hz for now?


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post #26381 of 29478 Old 02-16-2019, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bachelor View Post
The red line is both subs together. Green is the S3000i and the blue is the S3600i. Why do i get a dip around 70hz when playing both?
Typically such a dip is due to the subs destructively interfering with each other.

You can try flipping the phase/polarity on one of them.
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post #26382 of 29478 Old 02-16-2019, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welldun View Post
In your opinion, what is the easiest way to measure a room to find its actual mode frequencies and their corresponding null locations?
Keep in mind that modes have nulls and peaks. If you'll looking for the actual frequency of the 2nd width mode (as opposed to the estimate from a mode calculator), remember that it nulls at the quarter points but peaks at the side walls & midpoint of room width. Place a sub in a corner, sit at the MLP and use a tone generator to play frequencies a few Hz on either side of the estimated 2nd width mode frequency. You'll know when you hit the actual frequency because the peak won't be subtle, and moving your head side to side will make the peak appear & disappear. Once you know the actual frequency, you'll be able to walk across the room and find the nulls much quicker.
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I fear that playing a single tone for a prolonged period of time (as opposed to a sweep or playing pink noise) could cause some damage to the sub or speaker.
Not at normal listening levels. It isn't like you're playing it at 130B for several hours.
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post #26383 of 29478 Old 02-16-2019, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Keep in mind that modes have nulls and peaks. If you'll looking for the actual frequency of the 2nd width mode (as opposed to the estimate from a mode calculator), remember that it nulls at the quarter points but peaks at the side walls & midpoint of room width. Place a sub in a corner, sit at the MLP and use a tone generator to play frequencies a few Hz on either side of the estimated 2nd width mode frequency. You'll know when you hit the actual frequency because the peak won't be subtle, and moving your head side to side will make the peak appear & disappear. Once you know the actual frequency, you'll be able to walk across the room and find the nulls much quicker. Not at normal listening levels. It isn't like you're playing it at 130B for several hours.
Thank you for that feedback Sanjay, much appreciated.
Last night while on my quest to learn more about the room and how it's 6 surfaces are affecting what I hear, I ran across another process suggested here by Bob Golds:
https://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/ETF25T...desWithEtf.htm

It's a tedious process but it could help me figure out where the nulls have shifted to if they are not exactly at the predicted locations.
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post #26384 of 29478 Old 02-16-2019, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welldun View Post
Last night while on my quest to learn more about the room and how it's 6 surfaces are affecting what I hear...
For a single row of listeners (or multi-row with one important row), I would not give equal priority to all modal axes. With all the listeners being roughly the same ear height AND same distance from the front wall, height mode problems and length mode problem will be consistent across all seats. The biggest inconsistency will be across the width of the room, where seats can end up in peaks & nulls for the same frequency. So, when it comes to subwoofer placement, the main 2 surfaces I'd be worried about are the left & right side walls.
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post #26385 of 29478 Old 02-16-2019, 12:08 PM
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Need Opinions: Which sub distance?

These are my 2 best FR's. When I look at them unsmoothed 20' looks the best, but when I add "psychoacoustic smoothing" 25' looks the best.

What do you guys think?

Edit: I'm not sure why the scale of the graph changed to 10db increments?
Edit: Fixed it


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post #26386 of 29478 Old 02-16-2019, 12:33 PM
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Always analyze low frequency measurements without any smoothing.
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post #26387 of 29478 Old 02-16-2019, 01:00 PM
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But does psychoacoustic smoothing give any indication of real world results?
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post #26388 of 29478 Old 02-16-2019, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
I find sometimes REW switches to the laptop's internal mic. I don't know what causes it and it means many suspect measurements that have to be redone.
I've seen that reported a couple of times against macOS 10.14. One user said that it stopped after updating to 10.14.3.
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post #26389 of 29478 Old 02-16-2019, 02:10 PM
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But does psychoacoustic smoothing give any indication of real world results?
For comparing A/B listening tests or seeking to fit a target curve, I'd say yes. For diagnosing room problem with the bass below 300 Hz, especially below 100 Hz or so with sub placement, I'd agree with Jerry that 1/48th or better yet no smoothing is the way to go.
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post #26390 of 29478 Old 02-17-2019, 06:56 AM
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Hey,
so ive just finished reading the 150pg pdf on REW for beginners and I would really appreciate some opinions on this waterfall graph that I will attach. I have a decent idea of whats going on but i would love some help. Also , whats next? Keep measuring or begin testing withtraps? Thank you
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post #26391 of 29478 Old 02-17-2019, 09:29 AM
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So finally I have made my first measurement after repositioning my speakers and a refreshed Audyssey run:



Any thoughts?

Klipsch Reference Premiere: 4 x RP-280's, 1 x RP 450C, 4x RP-500SA’s and dual R-115W's
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post #26392 of 29478 Old 02-17-2019, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
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I've seen that reported a couple of times against macOS 10.14. One user said that it stopped after updating to 10.14.3.


I use REW with the MacBook Pro and I don’t recognize this.

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post #26393 of 29478 Old 02-17-2019, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
So finally I have made my first measurement after repositioning my speakers and a refreshed Audyssey run:



Any thoughts?
Both the sub response and the waterfall measurements are best shown 15-300Hz. The response measurements look pretty good.
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post #26394 of 29478 Old 02-17-2019, 03:03 PM
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Hi,
I need help on what to do with this drop off in the 40-60hz range. Ive added an all SPL graph of an average of the L+R and a waterfall graph. Why causes something like this to happen at 40-60hz? Also, What would be the best next step to take? Thanks
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post #26395 of 29478 Old 02-17-2019, 03:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
So finally I have made my first measurement after repositioning my speakers and a refreshed Audyssey run:



Any thoughts?
Frequency response looks flat enough, but the waterfall could indicate some serious reflection problems.
Do you like such an extremely sharp sound? Don't prefer x-curve like smoothness watching movies?

Could you please post the ETC and RT60 graphs from the center speaker?

Waterfall: please extend the z-axis (duration) until 1000 ms.

Last edited by Skinfax1; 02-17-2019 at 04:03 PM.
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post #26396 of 29478 Old 02-17-2019, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
Frequency response looks flat enough, but the waterfall could indicate some serious reflection problems.

Could you please post the ETC and RT60 graphs from the center speaker?

Waterfall: please extend the z-axis (duration) until 1000 ms.


Thanks for looking at the graphs, you too AustinJerry!

The measurement was done with the CC and the subs (crossover 80hz) together by the way. Do you want to see the center only? If so, I should take another measurement again, which I can do next week.

The other graphs I can look in to tomorrow.

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post #26397 of 29478 Old 02-17-2019, 04:14 PM
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@Skinfax1 :

since you’ve edited your post, this is the way my four Klipsch RP-280F’s sound in my room and I fell in love with the details they reveal! Beautiful! But yes, I’ve raised the subwoofers with 5db overall which gives a sort of ‘house curve’ and a crossover at 100hz. That was done after I posted these screens. Sounds more natural and impactful.

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post #26398 of 29478 Old 02-17-2019, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
Thanks for looking at the graphs, you too AustinJerry!

The measurement was done with the CC and the subs (crossover 80hz) together by the way. Do you want to see the center only? If so, I should take another measurement again, which I can do next week.

The other graphs I can look in to tomorrow.
No, I think showing center+subs is a good measurement. It is easier to assess the frequency response for the low frequency region by restricting the horizontal axis to show 15-300Hz, with no smoothing. You can do that for future graphs.

And the waterfall is used to assess bass ringing in the low frequencies, so restricting the measurement 15-300Hz is more appropriate. After all, what does it mean to look at bass resonance at 20,000Hz?

And I completely disagree with @Skinfax1 –the water fall is typically displayed with a time window of either 450ms, or 600ms. 1,000ms will mask any ringing issues you might have. If you were kind enough to re-post the waterfall graph 15-300Hz we could provide better feedback for you.
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post #26399 of 29478 Old 02-17-2019, 04:48 PM
 
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@AustinJerry

Even the 4 kHz are totally truncated at 300 ms in that room. It must be extended to see anything useful in that echo chamber.
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post #26400 of 29478 Old 02-17-2019, 05:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
@Skinfax1 :

since you’ve edited your post, this is the way my four Klipsch RP-280F’s sound in my room and I fell in love with the details they reveal! Beautiful!
In rooms with bad acoustics clarity is low and people tend to compensate by boosting the high treble (or they prefer boosted treble, because lower treble and the midrange are a reverberated mess). But that's even more damaging to the ears.
Ofcourse you can do with your ears what you like, but these threads are here to educate people. I'd be careful watching movies with 12 dB louder high treble than intended - maybe even close to reference levels.
What makes it worse: the very long decay times you have in the treble range means a conservation of energy - effectively it covers transients and works like an increase of loudness.


How big is that room?

Last edited by Skinfax1; 02-17-2019 at 05:09 PM.
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