Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 881 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #26401 of 29492 Old 02-17-2019, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
In rooms with bad acoustics clarity is low and people tend to compensate by boosting the high treble (or they prefer boosted treble, because lower treble and the midrange are a reverberated mess). But that's even more damaging to the ears.
Ofcourse you can do with your ears what you like, but these threads are here to educate people. I'd be careful watching movies with 12 dB louder high treble than intended - maybe even close to reference levels.
What makes it worse: the very long decay times you have in the treble range means a conservation of energy - effectively it covers transients and works like an increase of loudness.


How big is that room?
I don’t know where you are going with this. The waterfall is not a measurement that shows issues with high frequency reflections. The ETC is generally used to assess reflections. Perhaps if the OP were to make his MDAT available for downloading, we could run our own analysis and come to more useful conclusions.
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post #26402 of 29492 Old 02-17-2019, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
In rooms with bad acoustics clarity is low and people tend to compensate by boosting the high treble (or they prefer boosted treble, because lower treble and the midrange are a reverberated mess). But that's even more damaging to the ears.
Ofcourse you can do with your ears what you like, but these threads are here to educate people. I'd be careful watching movies with 12 dB louder high treble than intended - maybe even close to reference levels.
What makes it worse: the very long decay times you have in the treble range means a conservation of energy - effectively it covers transients and works like an increase of loudness.


How big is that room?


The eq is limited to 350hz in the system. The rest is not equalized at all. So indeed, what you can see could be the result of reflections etc. that’s why I joined this thread because I know I can get a better sound in my room. I do not have by any means trouble to hear the highs at lower volumes whatsoever. They always sound detailed, not harsh. That’s the signature of these speakers. The same goes for the midrange.

I appreciate all the help I can get as long as it’s done respectfully to each other.

My living room is 48m2, don’t know much it is in square feet. The length is 9,5m and the width is 5,1m.

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post #26403 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 12:25 AM
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Here are the other graphs you’ve asked earlier:


@AustinJerry , I’ve sent you the MDAT file by PM.

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post #26404 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 01:33 AM
 
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I do not have by any means trouble to hear the highs at lower volumes whatsoever. They always sound detailed, not harsh. That’s the signature of these speakers. The same goes for the midrange.
Believe me. The measurents indicate, you don't hear the sound coming from the speakers on that position in that untreated room. All you hear is the sound of an echo chamber.

Could you post the 1000 ms waterfall over the whole frequency range, please?
And from the ETC only the first 40-50 ms please.
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post #26405 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 04:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
My living room is 48m2, don’t know much it is in square feet. The length is 9,5m and the width is 5,1m.
The height of the room?
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post #26406 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
The height of the room?


2,40 meters.

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post #26407 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 04:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
2,40 meters.
You can check the RT60 corridor in a room of that size for a decent sound yourself:
https://www.hunecke.de/de/rechner/lautsprecher.html
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post #26408 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 05:01 AM
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No, because my room is not perfectly rectangle, it’s an odd shaped living room.

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post #26409 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
250Hz seems a bit high for the crossover. Parts of human voices will be coming from the subs—not desirable. And please be consistent with the vertical scale on your screenshots.

Edit: It is also critical that you develop a procedure to ensure that your mic is positioned in exactly the same spot for different measurement sessions. Tip of the mic exactly at ear height, pointed to the ceiling, and centered precisely on the centerline between left and right speakers.
Started Over Being a novice I'm picking up info at a rapid rate and, per above, noting many items I needed to improve. In addition, it was noted in the MA thread that the 'DSP' series of iNuke amps (the amp driving my SW array) has REVERSED POLARITY. I flipped the polarity and it immediately improved my responses of mains w/ SW, specifically,eliminating the 80 Hz suckout (to about half the extent). Anywho, I still have a lot of work but heres what I've got. Currently focusing on 20-300 hz range (is this OK?). All graphs w/ no smoothing applied:




.mdat for above graphs


.mdat for above graphs

Where to go from here? Thoughts in general regarding my approach (ie focus on 20-300 hz initially)? Measurements, progress, anything. Its all appreciated. BTW, all of the above graphs used a single mic placement at MLP (front row center seat).

Is the vertical scale on my caps acceptable at this point? REW was showing 5db increments witin the app but the cap was switching to 10db increments? Why are the caps not consistent with app view?

As always, thanks in advance for any help/comments!
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post #26410 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post

AustinJerry, I’ve sent you the MDAT file by PM.
My observations, based on your MDAT. By the way, in the future you should add a description to the measurements, because I don't know which speakers are being measured.

Frequency response:





Typically, frequency response variations under 5dB are considered very good. I see a minor issue in the low frequencies centered at 50Hz, which might be corrected by re-positioning a subwoofer. The top curve is reasonably flat, while the bottom curve has a small issue at 450Hz. Overall, I think the response is quite good.

Bass resonance:





Looking at the Spectrogram, any "plumes" that extend above 450ms to 500ms are indicative of bass ringing. On the waterfall, look for "ridges" that consist of tightly-spaced lines that originate at the top of the waterfall and extend downwards for at least 20dB. Both of these graphs indicate that your room might benefit from bass treatments. I would focus on resonances above 40Hz, because resonances at lower frequencies are extremely difficult to control or eliminate.

Modal reflections:





The ETC graph you posted did not show the detail needed to interpret the data. The guideline for reflections is to eliminate any reflections that are above the -20dB line within the first 20ms. "Measurement 4" shows a significant reflection between 3 and 4ms, and several others in the 13-16ms range. These reflections extend to -15dB, and should be reduced to -20dB at least. "Measurement 1" is slightly better, with on reflection at 5ms, and several other minor reflections. Overall, I don't see a major issue with reflections, and do not understand where @Skinfax1 is arriving at his conclusion, no disrespect.

And finally, speaker alignment:





Measurements 1 and 2 show perfect alignment, using the Impulse Overlay. Measurement 3 is showing a very slight alignment of .08 Inchers, which is .01 cm, clearly well within the acceptable range, and most likely smaller that the speaker distance adjustment that is possible on your AVR. No concerns with time alignment whatsoever.

In summary, your audio shows to be quite good based on the measurements. You would likely benefit by addressing bas resonances as your first priority, and then identifying the source of the several specular reflections, and finally adjusting speaker placements to achieve the flattest response.
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post #26411 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
My observations, based on your MDAT. By the way, in the future you should add a description to the measurements, because I don't know which speakers are being measured.



Frequency response:











Typically, frequency response variations under 5dB are considered very good. I see a minor issue in the low frequencies centered at 50Hz, which might be corrected by re-positioning a subwoofer. The top curve is reasonably flat, while the bottom curve has a small issue at 450Hz. Overall, I think the response is quite good.



Bass resonance:











Looking at the Spectrogram, any "plumes" that extend above 450ms to 500ms are indicative of bass ringing. On the waterfall, look for "ridges" that consist of tightly-spaced lines that originate at the top of the waterfall and extend downwards for at least 20dB. Both of these graphs indicate that your room might benefit from bass treatments. I would focus on resonances above 40Hz, because resonances at lower frequencies are extremely difficult to control or eliminate.



Modal reflections:











The ETC graph you posted did not show the detail needed to interpret the data. The guideline for reflections is to eliminate any reflections that are above the -20dB line within the first 20ms. "Measurement 4" shows a significant reflection between 3 and 4ms, and several others in the 13-16ms range. These reflections extend to -15dB, and should be reduced to -20dB at least. "Measurement 1" is slightly better, with on reflection at 5ms, and several other minor reflections. Overall, I don't see a major issue with reflections, and do not understand where @Skinfax1 is arriving at his conclusion, no disrespect.



And finally, speaker alignment:











Measurements 1 and 2 show perfect alignment, using the Impulse Overlay. Measurement 3 is showing a very slight alignment of .08 Inchers, which is .01 cm, clearly well within the acceptable range, and most likely smaller that the speaker distance adjustment that is possible on your AVR. No concerns with time alignment whatsoever.



In summary, your audio shows to be quite good based on the measurements. You would likely benefit by addressing bas resonances as your first priority, and then identifying the source of the several specular reflections, and finally adjusting speaker placements to achieve the flattest response.


Wow thank you so much for investigating this for me. I indeed forgot to give names to several measurements. One was with Audyssey on (limited to 350hz) and the other off.

I also checked the subwoofer response today of the two subwoofers with an SPL Meter. Adding 6ft to the back sub provided lower bass which sounded the same in a large area, even while standing up or sitting down. The first subwoofer was spot on in the receiver. This fix created more pressure in the room (almost 5db more).

My wife and I are going to buy a bigger rug and curtains soon to combat several reflecting issues.

The sound is pleasing to my ear right now!
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post #26412 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ddigler View Post
Started Over Being a novice I'm picking up info at a rapid rate and, per above, noting many items I needed to improve. In addition, it was noted in the MA thread that the 'DSP' series of iNuke amps (the amp driving my SW array) has REVERSED POLARITY. I flipped the polarity and it immediately improved my responses of mains w/ SW, specifically,eliminating the 80 Hz suckout (to about half the extent). Anywho, I still have a lot of work but heres what I've got. Currently focusing on 20-300 hz range (is this OK?). All graphs w/ no smoothing applied:

Where to go from here? Thoughts in general regarding my approach (ie focus on 20-300 hz initially)? Measurements, progress, anything. Its all appreciated. BTW, all of the above graphs used a single mic placement at MLP (front row center seat).

Is the vertical scale on my caps acceptable at this point? REW was showing 5db increments witin the app but the cap was switching to 10db increments? Why are the caps not consistent with app view?

As always, thanks in advance for any help/comments!
I think you are making progress. I would continue experimenting with crossover values, say 100Hz, to see if you can get a little smoother response. Also, experiment with the sub distance tweak.
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post #26413 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 12:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
No, because my room is not perfectly rectangle, it’s an odd shaped living room.
Which makes it easier to achieve good acoustics, not worse.

Huge decay times, several times heavily inverting RT60, loud reflections, but
Quote:
The sound is pleasing to my ear right now!
Fine...
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post #26414 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 12:59 PM
 
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.mdat for above graphs

Where to go from here? Thoughts in general regarding my approach (ie focus on 20-300 hz initially)? Measurements, progress, anything. Its all appreciated. BTW, all of the above graphs used a single mic placement at MLP (front row center seat).

Is the vertical scale on my caps acceptable at this point? REW was showing 5db increments witin the app but the cap was switching to 10db increments? Why are the caps not consistent with app view?

As always, thanks in advance for any help/comments!
"File is not in mdat format."
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post #26415 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post

Huge decay times, several times heavily inverting RT60, loud reflections, but


Fine...
Still not understanding. I have attached the OP's RT60 and the RT60 for my setup. I don't see much difference, and I don't see how either measure is indicative of issues in the listening room.

Did you take a look at the ETC measurements I posted? Typically, ETC measurements are used to assess room reflections, and the OP's measurements did not reveal any serious issues. If you are going to continue criticizing his acoustics, I would like to see some specific data supporting your claims.
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post #26416 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
"File is not in mdat format."
I'm sorry, but you are developing a serious credibility problem. I downloaded the file and it open perfectly fine. I am using REW ver 5.20 beta 5, which is the latest version.
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post #26417 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 01:41 PM
 
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I'm sorry, but you are developing a serious credibility problem. I downloaded the file and it open perfectly fine. I am using REW ver 5.20 beta 5, which is the latest version.
Mine is 5.20 beta2.
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Mine is 5.20 beta2.
Its a good idea to always download the newest REW soon as its available each time. It has bug fixes and other changes.
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CRC32 of the mdat file: DF720D73
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Its a good idea to always download the newest REW soon as its available each time. It has bug fixes and other changes.
I doubt that such a fine piece of software changes the file format all the time.
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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
CRC32 of the mdat file: DF720D73
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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
I doubt that such a fine piece of software changes the file format all the time.
A quote from JohnM (REW author): "The mdat format changed in 5.20 so there is some format conversion when loading files from previous versions."

What do you want us to do with the CRC32? I already said that the downloaded file opened in REW for me.
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post #26422 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 02:08 PM
 
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Did you take a look at the ETC measurements I posted? Typically, ETC measurements are used to assess room reflections, and the OP's measurements did not reveal any serious issues.
Everyone has his own defintion of a good sound.

Quote:
If you are going to continue criticizing his acoustics, I would like to see some specific data supporting your claims.
That's strange.
First you claimed a waterfall diagram was only useful up to 300 ms and only useful for showing bass ringing problems.
And now you don't know how a decent RT60 must look like?
I should provide specific data although it's basic acoustics knowledge? I had already posted a link and even a picture for a room of his size.
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I doubt that such a fine piece of software changes the file format all the time.
You'd be surprised—given how many changes @JohnPM makes in each beta release.
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You'd be surprised—given how many changes @JohnPM makes in each beta release.
You don't seem to have any knowledge about programming, do you?
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I doubt that such a fine piece of software changes the file format all the time.
From REW Author himself.....MDAT files (or elements of them) are often not compatible with older versions of REW as new features get added. The latest version can open files from older versions but not vice versa.

Maybe it would just be easier to just download to new beta and see if you can open the mdat files from other users.
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post #26426 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
Everyone has his own defintion of a good sound.



That's strange.
First you claimed a waterfall diagram was only useful up to 300 ms and only useful for showing bass ringing problems.
And now you don't know how a decent RT60 must look like?
I should provide specific data although it's basic acoustics knowledge? I had already posted a link and even a picture for a room of his size.
Here is what I have said: the Waterfall is typically used to analyze the modal region. The ETC is used to analyze spectral reflections. The ETC’s that I posted do not revel excessive reflections, certainly no where near your claims of total disaster. You have not commented on the ETC measurements that I posted—why not?

And as for the RT60 graph, the one I posted, which was from the downloaded MDAT file, looks nothing like the original RT60 that the OP provided. @IMWhizzle —can you comment on why your RT60 looked so different from the one I posted? Clearly your post has @Skinfax1 confused.
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post #26427 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 03:07 PM
 
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As always, thanks in advance for any help/comments!
REW5.20 Beta5 finally opened the files.

Wow that's an impressively looking RT60 and waterfall of a nicely dampened room.
The spectrogram looks amazing.

You seem to have an amazing bass response. Two SVS 2000?

Congratulations. The only two aspects my living room can hold up to, is reflections and the sound of my center.

Is there anything you still want to have improved?
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Here is what I have said: the Waterfall is typically used to analyze the modal region.
Who claims that a ruler can only be used to measure the size of an apple?
The waterfall displays certain physical characteristics and I understand what it displays. Therefore I use it to analyze the aspects I am interested in.

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The ETC is used to analyze spectral reflections. The ETC’s that I posted do not revel excessive reflections, certainly no where near your claims of total disaster. You have not commented on the ETC measurements that I posted—why not?
I don't know where they come from. My comments were about the ones @IMWhizzle posted.

Quote:
And as for the RT60 graph, the one I posted, which was from the downloaded MDAT file, looks nothing like the original RT60 that the OP provided. @IMWhizzle —can you comment on why your RT60 looked so different from the one I posted?
That would be good to know.
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post #26429 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 04:04 PM
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Guys, excuse me for being a noob at the REW ins and outs. This is my first experience with it and I don’t want to cause any confusion. Still in a learning curve. @Skinfax1 , I’ve sent you the MDAT file also.

Klipsch Reference Premiere: 4 x RP-280's, 1 x RP 450C, 4x RP-500SA’s and dual R-115W's
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post #26430 of 29492 Old 02-18-2019, 04:05 PM
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I think you are making progress. I would continue experimenting with crossover values, say 100Hz, to see if you can get a little smoother response. Also, experiment with the sub distance tweak.
I appreciate the input Jerry thank you. I'll keep working on it slowly but surely With some guidance from you kind folks.So how smooth do High end acoustic rooms look? How does one know when to call it good enough? I'm not saying I'm even close to that As my ignorance on the situation Is so high I would not know either way. You just seem to have an educated Understanding of the software And an ability to dumb down data interpretations For someone New like myself.

Would you mind doing one of the Detailed looks at the mdatS I posted Now that I have my mic positioning correct And subwoofer phase is correct? You Certainly don't owe me anything if you don't feel like it no worries at all.

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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
"File is not in mdat format."
Works with beta 5 But it looks as if you've Figured that out. Anyway , thanks for taking time Skin

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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
REW5.20 Beta5 finally opened the files.

Wow that's an impressively looking RT60 and waterfall of a nicely dampened room.
The spectrogram looks amazing.

You seem to have an amazing bass response. Two SVS 2000?

Congratulations. The only two aspects my living room can hold up to, is reflections and the sound of my center.

Is there anything you still want to have improved?
Hey skin I appreciate The feedback, although I'm a little confused because I thought previously you hated My one graph haha. To be fair, I've learned so much about mic placement and phase was all screwed up previously as well So that absolutely could have changed things

I actually have 6 Large ported subwoofer Although their placement Is not ideal as they are Set up in 2 stacks all Behind the screen Up front , one to the right of the center channel and one to the left. The models show 115 decibels at 15hz , I would like to know how to check this at some point Without either being divorced Or blowing the doors off My theater. Regardless, this pales in comparison to many other usersI certainly Like bass And would like to run them hot especially for movies on the very low end But I'm not sure how to accomplish all of that And at what extent The louder bass just ruins the sound in general

I just started with REW The only tweak I have made Is to the crossover at this point. I'm not sure If I'm done trying to improve but I'm enjoying it and so I'd like to keep pushing. this is where I'm trying to establish an answer, Will the hours involved Make a big enough difference Or do I just sort of go with it. I understand Austin Jerry recommends I attack some reflections As well.

One particular concern right now is how ugly the center looks between 100 and 200hz. I'd like to address this.

Last edited by ddigler; 02-18-2019 at 04:26 PM.
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