Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 888 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #26611 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
EDITED FOR CLARITY:

So I read many posts yesterday from a thread where guy used 24 IB subs in a front wall.

With subs all over the room, it seems like the timing and response would change drastically from seat to seat because you could be moving closer to one sub while moving further from another.

With subs all up front the response would still change because of room modes and because your relative distance to each sub would change somewhat, but not as drastically as if they were all over the room.

Is this something to consider? I couldn’t place them in the front wall without extensive modifications but I could place them all in the ceiling along the front or side or rear wall. Would that even out the seat to seat response?
It is difficult to predict. With placing sub drivers in the wall or ceiling, you always run the risk of getting it wrong. By wrong, I mean bass response that doesn't meet your expectations. And once the drivers are installed, it's pretty difficult to make changes. That is why I would always select free-standing subs, which can be moved around to provide the best response.

Can you share why you choose to install IB subs? Is it because you have restrictions where you could place free-standing subs? Or that you think IB subs provide better results? Clearly, there are many examples in which free-standing subs can produce excellent results.
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post #26612 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 09:03 AM
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Unhappy

I too am a newbie at using REW, and have stumbled onto a problem that I cant find similar post for answer.
Hardware is as follows:
Dell laptop with Windows 10 running v5.19 REW and v2.14 ASIO.
HDMI cable plugged into front auxiliary HDMI port of Denon X6200.
UMIK-1 plugged into USB of laptop

Situation experienced:
I set everything up following Austin Jerry's guide.(thank you). Had one hiccup getting the ASIO V2 to show up as an option for input device in the preferences screen. I just closed everything on the latop and reloaded with all working great. I then ran a sweep along all 8 channels to determine what output number correlates to each channel. This is totally great I thought. Until I got up and when I did my foot dragged across the HDMI cable unplugging from the Denon. I plugged it back in. REW lost the connection for output device as well as in the ASIO control panel did not have the little blue arrow indicating HDMI active.
Solution tried:
Completely shut everything down and unplugged all cables. Waited then plugged all connections back together and then turned on AVR & laptop. Went back through setup in Windows control panel for 'manage audio devices'. Selected test on each speaker and yes I had sound. Proceeded along back into REW to the preferences screen. Input devices let me select as ASIO V2 and UMIK-1. But I still have no selections for output device - the only thing listed in the output device drop down is 'not available'.

So here I am now, seeking answers as to what to do in order to get back up to running. The one thing that has crossed my mind that I didnt do yet was unplug the AVR from power to let it do a 'soft' reset. Could be that or maybe something I'm missing in the software or drivers???

Please help....
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post #26613 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
With subs all over the room, it seems like the timing and response would change drastically from seat to seat because you could be moving closer to one sub while moving further from another.

With subs all up front the response would still change because of room modes and because your relative distance to each sub would change somewhat, but not as drastically as if they were all over the room.
Other way 'round. With subs spread all around the room, peaks & dips from each sub are not likely to line up with each other, so the sound pressure will average out across the room, resulting in less variation from seat to seat.
Quote:
I couldn’t place them in the front wall without extensive modifications but I could place them all in the ceiling along the front or side or rear wall. Would that even out the seat to seat response?
IF you can do 4 subs in the ceiling at the quarter points of the room, then you can cancel the first 3 width & length modes of your room and improve seat to seat consistency. We're ass-uming a rectangular room with no irregularities.
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post #26614 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 09:52 AM
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Plug something else into that front port and make sure the port itself didn't get fried.

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #26615 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 10:03 AM
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Plug something else into that front port and make sure the port itself didn't get fried.
That thought did cross my mind, but I disregarded as the video was still working with the tv displaying the same as my laptop. I also disrearged because the speakers did play test output when selected in the configure section of manage audio devices in Windows. Your point is duly noted and I will most certainly try, after all its pretty easy to quickly move a blu ray player from another room and verify the port is fully functional.

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post #26616 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
With subs all over the room, it seems like the timing and response would change drastically from seat to seat because you could be moving closer to one sub while moving further from another.

With subs all up front the response would still change because of room modes and because your relative distance to each sub would change somewhat, but not as drastically as if they were all over the room.
Other way 'round. With subs spread all around the room, peaks & dips from each sub are not likely to line up with each other, so the sound pressure will average out across the room, resulting in less variation from seat to seat.
Quote:
I couldn’t place them in the front wall without extensive modifications but I could place them all in the ceiling along the front or side or rear wall. Would that even out the seat to seat response?
IF you can do 4 subs in the ceiling at the quarter points of the room, then you can cancel the first 3 width & length modes of your room and improve seat to seat consistency. We're ass-uming a rectangular room with no irregularities.
I sort of understand the concept of 1st order through 4th order modes. I saw a visual chart showing them. But where exactly are the quarter points in the x and y axis along the ceiling?
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post #26617 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
But where exactly are the quarter points in the x and y axis along the ceiling?
A quarter of the way in from the front & back walls and a quarter of the way in from the left & right walls.

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post #26618 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
[We're ass-uming a rectangular room with no irregularities.
Room is 19.5’ x 22’. Kitchen cabinets along the left wall. Open to hallway on the back wall. That enough to throw off the room node cancellations by placing subs at 1/4 points?
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post #26619 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
That enough to throw off the room node cancellations by placing subs at 1/4 points?
Unfortunately, yes. Sound won't know to stop at the opening.

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post #26620 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 01:01 PM
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If I can take measurements every 2 feet in every direction on a grid (about 100 measurements) can I post the file here and get help with finding a location?
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post #26621 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Can you share why you choose to install IB subs? Is it because you have restrictions where you could place free-standing subs? Or that you think IB subs provide better results? Clearly, there are many examples in which free-standing subs can produce excellent results.
Everything I’ve read online about IB subs suggests that they sound superior because of the unrestricted cone movement. Plus for the price of a single dual 18” opposed box sub from say, PSA or something, I can get 8 Fi IB318 and a 2400 watt amp to drive them all to xmax at 10hz.
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post #26622 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevnmin View Post

So here I am now, seeking answers as to what to do in order to get back up to running. The one thing that has crossed my mind that I didnt do yet was unplug the AVR from power to let it do a 'soft' reset. Could be that or maybe something I'm missing in the software or drivers???

Please help....
ASIO is notoriously stubborn. Follow the troubleshooting suggestions in the guide. Sometimes everything magically starts working again after a couple of reboots or power cycles. Unfortunately, there is no surefire way to restore functionality. Don’t give up.
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post #26623 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
Everything I’ve read online about IB subs suggests that they sound superior because of the unrestricted cone movement. Plus for the price of a single dual 18” opposed box sub from say, PSA or something, I can get 8 Fi IB318 and a 2400 watt amp to drive them all to xmax at 10hz.
That assumes you have the expertise to install them properly.
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post #26624 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 01:54 PM
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That assumes you have the expertise to install them properly.


It’s just placement. It will happen.


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post #26625 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 03:23 PM
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Alright, I have some measurements. I measured each sub individually and both subs. Attached are my SPL, IR, Waterfall and Decay charts.

I believe from these charts I can conclude:
1. Dual subs fixed a big null around 65 Hz, and these subs create a weird rainbow graph of an SPL compared to what I see around here.
2. There doesn't appear to be a phase or timing issue with the subs
3. I'm not sure what I can take away from the waterfall chart. Any narrative here?

ALSO...
At first glance, does this look like I did this right?
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post #26626 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 03:47 PM
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At first glance, does this look like I did this right?
The format of the graphs you posted are much better, thanks.

The waterfall is exhibiting a significant ringing in the 55-60Hz range. It is also reflected in the Decay graph. The ringing is likely to be audible when playing content with significant output in the 55-60Hz range.

And that severe dip in the front right sub is peculiar—have you tried to get rid of it?
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post #26627 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The format of the graphs you posted are much better, thanks.

The waterfall is exhibiting a significant ringing in the 55-60Hz range. It is also reflected in the Decay graph. The ringing is likely to be audible when playing content with significant output in the 55-60Hz range.

And that severe dip in the front right sub is peculiar—have you tried to get rid of it?
These are the first graphs that I’ve posted here, so I think you may have me confused with the guy who was taking photos with his phone.

I have no tried to get rid of the dip in the front right sub. In fact, this is the first time that I’ve ever seen it!

The ringing at 55-60Hz range lines up with the big hump in the SPL curve. Is it possible that this is more sub than room? Is it location of sub? Combination thereof?

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post #26628 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 04:59 PM
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These are the first graphs that I’ve posted here, so I think you may have me confused with the guy who was taking photos with his phone.

I have no tried to get rid of the dip in the front right sub. In fact, this is the first time that I’ve ever seen it!

The ringing at 55-60Hz range lines up with the big hump in the SPL curve. Is it possible that this is more sub than room? Is it location of sub? Combination thereof?
Sorry if I have you confused with the other poster—I am following to many threads.

More sub than room? There is no such thing as too much subwoofage.

Location would be the first step to address the issue. Bass traps would be a second step.
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post #26629 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 05:16 PM
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If you were to pay me $330 million to move to Philly, I would be glad to help out.
Is that what it takes these days to get a someone to move to Philly? What a sad state of affairs...
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post #26630 of 27607 Old 03-07-2019, 05:22 PM
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Sorry if I have you confused with the other poster—I am following to many threads.

More sub than room? There is no such thing as too much subwoofage.

Location would be the first step to address the issue. Bass traps would be a second step.
No worries!

My room is a little oddly shaped. It's the bonus room over the garage, and the result is that the room has one irregular wall. It's broken up into 2 10ft segments, at the 10ft mark, it pushes out another 2 4 feet or so. The result is that i have a 10x20 attached to a 10x24 floorspace, open inbetween. I've treated 3 corners with Tri-Corner bass traps. I've treated one other corner with 12x24 bass traps. The final corner has a door, so there's not much I can do there.

I suppose at this point it's a location issue, then?

I will add that when I tried to EQ this with REW, it threw a ton of warnings at me. I just cancelled out, figuring I had enough to work.

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post #26631 of 27607 Old 03-08-2019, 07:31 AM
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A little whine here.

I've been trying to flatten my FR curve of my 2 SVS subs for about a week or so using REW and a miniDSP 2x4... It's a living room/dining room type. Abt 15 x 24. Outside wall on one side and a half wall on the other side that connects to the rest of the house..

Had a hump at 30 hz and a dip at 50 hz. I can eliminate the hump by placing the subs at room diagonals. But I don't like the look. So, now they are on each side of my TV credenza at the 1/4 & 3/4 front wall nodes. Looks like Jerry's setup without the acoustic panels..

Not much success with the 50 dip. After doing the tutorial, and, creating an REW EQ txt file, I imported into the mini. Not very much flattening..

Now, I ran ONKYO's AccuEQ. What I found is that it doesn't due virtually any sub optimizing. Fun time, NO CIGARS....

So, I removed the mini, ran the Onkyo EQ and tweaked a little.

My nearly 76 year old ears don't know any better...LOL

I loved the ride, though.

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post #26632 of 27607 Old 03-08-2019, 09:40 AM
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A little whine here.

I've been trying to flatten my FR curve of my 2 SVS subs for about a week or so using REW and a miniDSP 2x4... It's a living room/dining room type. Abt 15 x 24. Outside wall on one side and a half wall on the other side that connects to the rest of the house..

Had a hump at 30 hz and a dip at 50 hz. I can eliminate the hump by placing the subs at room diagonals. But I don't like the look. So, now they are on each side of my TV credenza at the 1/4 & 3/4 front wall nodes. Looks like Jerry's setup without the acoustic panels..

Not much success with the 50 dip. After doing the tutorial, and, creating an REW EQ txt file, I imported into the mini. Not very much flattening..

Now, I ran ONKYO's AccuEQ. What I found is that it doesn't due virtually any sub optimizing. Fun time, NO CIGARS....

So, I removed the mini, ran the Onkyo EQ and tweaked a little.

My nearly 76 year old ears don't know any better...LOL

I loved the ride, though.
What is the overall size of that large room and where is the mic/mlp in that room based on physical distance?

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post #26633 of 27607 Old 03-08-2019, 09:57 AM
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3000 cu ft room. The MLP is centered in the width and 14' from the front wall and 11 1/2 ' from the CC. Why?

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3000 cu ft room. The MLP is centered in the width and 14' from the front wall and 11 1/2 ' from the CC. Why?


What is the width, length, and height of the whole room? Its possible you are sitting in a null and that could explain why you have huge dip. Also care to show the graph?

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post #26635 of 27607 Old 03-08-2019, 10:44 AM
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The original post had the room 15' x 24'. Height is 9'. I sit at the MLP.

Wasn't trying to go back to using the miniDSP. Just letting others know that the AccuEQ doesn't do subs and the small amount of gain from the mini didn't warrant the extra hardware or electricity. LOL Two equidistant subs don't need delay, anyway. After doing AccuEQ, I did do the distance tweak to flatten the XO point with the CC...... I mostly watch OTA tv using TIVO. And Amazon Music... Occasionally a UBD with Atmos...

The MLP can't really be moved any more than the 1-2 feet I have tried. I couldn't hear the difference anyway....

Thanks, Chuck

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post #26636 of 27607 Old 03-08-2019, 01:21 PM
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@Chuck666 I never brought up minidsp or any room correction. But you mentioned you have dip at 50hz. Looking at your room dimensions you have 2nd order mode at 47hz. That could be the culprit.
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post #26637 of 27607 Old 03-08-2019, 01:33 PM
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Question @AustinJerry et al,

I would like some help identifying which points to use on the Impulse graph to determine how much delay to add to a subwoofer. I've included some pics of the Impulse graphs and SPL graphs along with the (.mdat) file https://www.dropbox.com/s/tojorpoiwm...ests.mdat?dl=0

I also need some help clarifying the polarity reading of the subs. As you will notice from the attached pics of the Impulse Graph and the (.mdat) file, when I measure Sub2 with the polarity set to normal, the initial bump points Down. Then when I measure the same sub with the polarity Inverted via my MiniDSP, the initial bump points UP. I was under the impression that the bump pointing Down was indicative of inverted polarity. However, when I combine both subs (Sub 1 + Sub2) and measure them together, the results look much better in the lower bass region when I Don't invert the polarity of Sub2.
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Name:	Front Sub1(red) vs Rear Sub2 (gold) Polarity Inverted.jpg
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Name:	Sub1 + Sub 2 combined (green) vs Sub1 + Sub2 with Polarity inverted combined (blue).jpg
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post #26638 of 27607 Old 03-08-2019, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by welldun View Post
Question @AustinJerry et al,

I would like some help identifying which points to use on the Impulse graph to determine how much delay to add to a subwoofer. I've included some pics of the Impulse graphs and SPL graphs along with the (.mdat) file https://www.dropbox.com/s/tojorpoiwm...ests.mdat?dl=0

I also need some help clarifying the polarity reading of the subs. As you will notice from the attached pics of the Impulse Graph and the (.mdat) file, when I measure Sub2 with the polarity set to normal, the initial bump points Down. Then when I measure the same sub with the polarity Inverted via my MiniDSP, the initial bump points UP. I was under the impression that the bump pointing Down was indicative of inverted polarity. However, when I combine both subs (Sub 1 + Sub2) and measure them together, the results look much better in the lower bass region when I Don't invert the polarity of Sub2.
I agree that inverting the polarity of Sub2 produces a worse result, so I would not invert it. However, Sub3 needs to have its alignment adjusted. I am seeing its signal arrive 6ms too early, so add 6ms delay and re-measure.
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post #26639 of 27607 Old 03-08-2019, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I agree that inverting the polarity of Sub2 produces a worse result, so I would not invert it. However, Sub3 needs to have its alignment adjusted. I am seeing its signal arrive 6ms too early, so add 6ms delay and re-measure.
Thanks, Jerry, I will make the adjustment and remeasure this tonight when I the house is quiet again.

also, per reply, I will then gather that when using the Impulse Response Graph to time align the subs, one should use the peaks of initial bump calculate the delay. Thanks for clearing that up.
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post #26640 of 27607 Old 03-08-2019, 02:28 PM
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@Chuck666 I never brought up minidsp or any room correction. But you mentioned you have dip at 50hz. Looking at your room dimensions you have 2nd order mode at 47hz. That could be the culprit.
Thanks @ereed . Wish that meant something obvious? LOL Must be BEER time...

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