Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 889 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #26641 of 27607 Old 03-08-2019, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by welldun View Post
Thanks, Jerry, I will make the adjustment and remeasure this tonight when I the house is quiet again.

also, per reply, I will then gather that when using the Impulse Response Graph to time align the subs, one should use the peaks of initial bump calculate the delay. Thanks for clearing that up.
Actually, I start by using either the physical distance, or I run a 1-pos Audyssey calibration for each sub and use the Audyssey-calculated distances (which take into account any internal electronic delay in the sub amps). Then I use REW to check the results and fine-tune as required. As long as you know what you are doing, there are several ways to get the desired result.
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post #26642 of 27607 Old 03-08-2019, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Actually, I start by using either the physical distance, or I run a 1-pos Audyssey calibration for each sub and use the Audyssey-calculated distances (which take into account any internal electronic delay in the sub amps). Then I use REW to check the results and fine-tune as required. As long as you know what you are doing, there are several ways to get the desired result.
Got it. thanks. I was actually looking at the .mdat file that I shared and noticed that one of the combined measurements labeled "S1+ S2 +S3 D6.2" actually has a delay of 6.2ms for sub3. If you compare it to the other measurement labeled "S1+ S2+S3" which has no delay on any of the subs, you can see the difference the delay of 6.2ms made to the combined measurement.

See attached pic.

Also in the .mdat file, you'll find other delay settings mentioned in the measurement names. That is a result of me calculating the differences between the various peaks in the Impulse responses for the specified sub, as well as my estimates based on the different physical distances of the subs, So I guess I was close. In the future, I'll try the 1-pos measurement trick as well. Thanks.
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post #26643 of 27607 Old 03-08-2019, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welldun View Post
Got it. thanks. I was actually looking at the .mdat file that I shared and noticed that one of the combined measurements labeled "S1+ S2 +S3 D6.2" actually has a delay of 6.2ms for sub3. If you compare it to the other measurement labeled "S1+ S2+S3" which has no delay on any of the subs, you can see the difference the delay of 6.2ms made to the combined measurement.

See attached pic.

Also in the .mdat file, you'll find other delay settings mentioned in the measurement names. That is a result of me calculating the differences between the various peaks in the Impulse responses for the specified sub, as well as my estimates based on the different physical distances of the subs, So I guess I was close. In the future, I'll try the 1-pos measurement trick as well. Thanks.
Yes, S1+S2+S3 D6.2 is clearly better than the other measurements. It confirms how important time alignment is. Now you should run automated room correction, if you have it.
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post #26644 of 27607 Old 03-09-2019, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
@Chuck666 I never brought up minidsp or any room correction. But you mentioned you have dip at 50hz. Looking at your room dimensions you have 2nd order mode at 47hz. That could be the culprit.
@ereed ,

Got a little bored and moved my MLP inward and back about 15". Reran AccuEQ, did the distance tweak to smooth xo at 100. Took measurements and captured graph.

My previous dips and humps description was not very good..

Blue line is old MLP and orange is new MLP.

Thanks for commenting...
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post #26645 of 27607 Old 03-09-2019, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
@ereed ,

Got a little bored and moved my MLP inward and back about 15". Reran AccuEQ, did the distance tweak to smooth xo at 100. Took measurements and captured graph.

My previous dips and humps description was not very good..

Blue line is old MLP and orange is new MLP.

Thanks for commenting...
Chuck
I'm not sure if you are actually physically moving your MLP seating but to see quick measurement all you need to do is move the mic itself only forward and sideways to get same result.

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post #26646 of 27607 Old 03-09-2019, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
I'm not sure if you are actually physically moving your MLP seating but to see quick measurement all you need to do is move the mic itself only forward and sideways to get same result.
True unless furniture is in the way..LOL Any thoughts on my camel back wave?

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post #26647 of 27607 Old 03-09-2019, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
True unless furniture is in the way..LOL Any thoughts on my camel back wave?
No disrespect, Chuck, but what thoughts could we have other than to say it looks pretty bad. If you have been reading this thread, you know what is required to get good bass response. It’s not rocket science.

- Better placement
- More subs
- Equalization
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post #26648 of 27607 Old 03-09-2019, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Not much success with the 50 dip. After doing the tutorial, and, creating an REW EQ txt file, I imported into the mini. Not very much flattening..
I had a sub amp die so redoing measures with a new amp. I had my XO set to 95 and noticed there was a sharp dip there. Adjusting distance didn't help, just moved the dip a little lower, a little higher.

Then I noticed that my subs' response was pretty good up until 150Hz or so. So I set the XO to 144Hz (eyeballing/scrubbing the graph) and no more dip. My subs are flanking my L/R so localization shouldn't be an issue.

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post #26649 of 27607 Old 03-10-2019, 04:54 AM
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Here are my “final” traces. Both fronts and sub with EQ on the sub only.
Thanks in advance for comments / advice.
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post #26650 of 27607 Old 03-10-2019, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venger99 View Post
Here are my “final” traces. Both fronts and sub with EQ on the sub only.
Thanks in advance for comments / advice.
I previously provided examples of what REW measurement graphs should look like here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post57707458

You seem to have ignored my advice and posted another set of graphs which are difficult, if not impossible, to interpret.

If you really want feedback, please consider making your REW MDAT measurement file available for downloading. Many of us use Dropbox.com to upload our files. And if your measurements are not clearly identified with meaningful descriptions, it will be difficult to interpret the MDAT.
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post #26651 of 27607 Old 03-10-2019, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venger99 View Post
Here are my “final” traces. Both fronts and sub with EQ on the sub only.
Thanks in advance for comments / advice.
You still didn't follow the rew guide for proper posting of the graphs. My only advice at this point is just tell you to READ the rew guide....everyone should learn to post proper display of the graphs before it even gets analyzed.
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post #26652 of 27607 Old 03-10-2019, 06:06 PM
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Wondering if anyone has any feedback on the attached measurements. I have my BMR's hooked up to a Bluesound Powernode 2i and measured them alone and with an old Yamaha sub that we had laying around. The sub helps slightly but am wondering about the dips on the right of the chart. I'm a total newb with REW but maybe one of you experts can chime in? Thanks! Mark

(and sorry, I can't figure out how to insert the pics...)
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post #26653 of 27607 Old 03-10-2019, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Striper Mark View Post
Wondering if anyone has any feedback on the attached measurements. I have my BMR's hooked up to a Bluesound Powernode 2i and measured them alone and with an old Yamaha sub that we had laying around. The sub helps slightly but am wondering about the dips on the right of the chart. I'm a total newb with REW but maybe one of you experts can chime in? Thanks! Mark

(and sorry, I can't figure out how to insert the pics...)
When you say "BMR" what do you mean? I have some CA Minx and I wonder if you mean that kind of BMR.

The sub helped quite a bit, according to the chart.

The dips on the right could be a variety of things. Maybe Allison effect (aka floor bounce): https://david-janszen.squarespace.co...-effect2015321

Or some other reflection.
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post #26654 of 27607 Old 03-11-2019, 12:02 AM
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Hey all.

I finally got around to running REW again in oh so many months and this is the best I've come up with after re-running Audyssey 5ish times. I *think* I'm using REW the right way, go the UMIK selected, went through the instructions in the guide, etc.

I'm testing my Rythmik FV25HP w/ PSA MT-210 LCR at my MLP. Measurments are taken at -15db @ 80hz crossover. I've tried to move my sub around to get rid of the null(s), but just kept creating new ones. The measurments are my Front left speaker and then my front right.

Any thoughts are welcome and appreciated!
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post #26655 of 27607 Old 03-11-2019, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
Any thoughts are welcome and appreciated!
Hi Javan,
the center speaker is BY FAR the most important one for movies. He should be the focus. So I'd recommend to measure it instead of L/R.
L/R measurements are difficult, especially when measuring them combined with a phantom center. Lots of cancellations are taking place and if the measures are based on the L/R-measurements they can be counterproductive for the center. Therefore always start with the most important channel, the center.

To get a valid first impression, you should measure the speakers individually full range without bass management and calibration.
Then each one with calibration, but still without bass management (speaker range = full).

Also very important: measuring calibrated sound with bass management with different crossover frequencies. You will be surprised how effective different x-overs can be in creating or avoiding frequency holes.

Also pay close attention to the center impulse graph. Early reflections have a decisive impact on dialogue clarity and sound quality.

Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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post #26656 of 27607 Old 03-11-2019, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
When you say "BMR" what do you mean? I have some CA Minx and I wonder if you mean that kind of BMR.

The sub helped quite a bit, according to the chart.

The dips on the right could be a variety of things. Maybe Allison effect (aka floor bounce): https://david-janszen.squarespace.co...-effect2015321

Or some other reflection.
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post #26657 of 27607 Old 03-11-2019, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
Hi Javan,
the center speaker is BY FAR the most important one for movies. He should be the focus. So I'd recommend to measure it instead of L/R.
L/R measurements are difficult, especially when measuring them combined with a phantom center. Lots of cancellations are taking place and if the measures are based on the L/R-measurements they can be counterproductive for the center. Therefore always start with the most important channel, the center.

To get a valid first impression, you should measure the speakers individually full range without bass management and calibration.
Then each one with calibration, but still without bass management (speaker range = full).

Also very important: measuring calibrated sound with bass management with different crossover frequencies. You will be surprised how effective different x-overs can be in creating or avoiding frequency holes.

Also pay close attention to the center impulse graph. Early reflections have a decisive impact on dialogue clarity and sound quality.
Dammit! I knew I was doing something incorrect! ha.

But thank you for pointing me in the right direction! Will re-run tonight and get back!




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post #26658 of 27607 Old 03-11-2019, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
I'm testing my Rythmik FV25HP w/ PSA MT-210 LCR at my MLP. Measurments are taken at -15db @ 80hz crossover. I've tried to move my sub around to get rid of the null(s), but just kept creating new ones. The measurments are my Front left speaker and then my front right.

Any thoughts are welcome and appreciated!
You might also try experimenting with phase. When you place the subwoofer observe the dips and see if the phase knob has any effect on it.
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post #26659 of 27607 Old 03-11-2019, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
Hi Javan,
the center speaker is BY FAR the most important one for movies. He should be the focus. So I'd recommend to measure it instead of L/R.
L/R measurements are difficult, especially when measuring them combined with a phantom center. Lots of cancellations are taking place and if the measures are based on the L/R-measurements they can be counterproductive for the center. Therefore always start with the most important channel, the center.

To get a valid first impression, you should measure the speakers individually full range without bass management and calibration.
Then each one with calibration, but still without bass management (speaker range = full).

Also very important: measuring calibrated sound with bass management with different crossover frequencies. You will be surprised how effective different x-overs can be in creating or avoiding frequency holes.

Also pay close attention to the center impulse graph. Early reflections have a decisive impact on dialogue clarity and sound quality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
You might also try experimenting with phase. When you place the subwoofer observe the dips and see if the phase knob has any effect on it.

questions to be sure I'm doing this correct.. -

Should my AVR be in Multi-Channel In Mode?

For Output, should I select "Display Audio Output 1 3" in order to select the CENTER speaker?

When you said pay attention to the "center impulse graph" - what is that exactly?


And final and maybe most important question - if I'm unable to garner the results I'm looking for with little system tweaks - changing crossover, standing on my head, etc - is the next step room treatment? If so, what form of room treatment would I gain the most bass back if that makes sense?

And I've played w/ the phase knob before - is it commonly used for matching 2 different or similar sounding subs? I only have one, but I may play around with this too!


Thanks guys! Re-running REW now and will report back!




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post #26660 of 27607 Old 03-11-2019, 09:32 PM
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Okay, I ran some measurements! Did what you recommended and ran in Full Range, w/ and w/o Audy.

Towards the end I was finding the measurments using Small + Flat combo and making micro adjustments on my sub. I have it just a bit toed out now, and while "sub pretty far out" and "super toed out" were appealing as far as the dip around 140 is less pronounced, but they're not really feasible as far as walking around in my room.

Anyhow - this is the best I've come up with, again I am sure I am doing all of this wrong lol.

Feel free to make any recommendations and after all of this is done, once I got it as good as can, if I post some pics of my room can somoene help me make room treatment choices to help alleviate some of the p's and n's?

thanks all! oh and did not get around to messing around with phase..yet! Going to re-run audy w/ new sub positioning and see where I'm at!
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65" 900E Tee Vee | Denon 6300H AVR | PSA MTM-210s | PSA MTM-210c | PSA MTM-110s | Canton 880 InCeilings | Rythmik FV25HP
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post #26661 of 27607 Old 03-12-2019, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
Okay, I ran some measurements! Did what you recommended and ran in Full Range, w/ and w/o Audy.

Towards the end I was finding the measurments using Small + Flat combo and making micro adjustments on my sub. I have it just a bit toed out now, and while "sub pretty far out" and "super toed out" were appealing as far as the dip around 140 is less pronounced, but they're not really feasible as far as walking around in my room.

Anyhow - this is the best I've come up with, again I am sure I am doing all of this wrong lol.

Feel free to make any recommendations and after all of this is done, once I got it as good as can, if I post some pics of my room can somoene help me make room treatment choices to help alleviate some of the p's and n's?

thanks all! oh and did not get around to messing around with phase..yet! Going to re-run audy w/ new sub positioning and see where I'm at!
The 70hz dip area is what I would be concerned about. I'm assuming this is just subs only? What crossover are you using or is the subs full range with highest xover enabled? If that is the case then you need to move the sub around to get rid of that dip or add another sub.

Also you mentioned the 140hz dip. That is cause you have 70hz dip so its happening in multiples of 70hz which make sense. If your subs have 140hz dip I would not worry about that since you will have center channel to help clean that up when its engaged. I'd just worry about that 70hz area first.

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post #26662 of 27607 Old 03-12-2019, 06:29 AM
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I am interested in individual speaker and room response measurements using REW. I have connected my MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2015 - 2.2 GHz Intel Core i7) to my processor via a 20m HDMI cable using the HDMI port on my Mac laptop that is currently running Mac OS High Sierra 10.13.6

This is what I have tried:-

- Made sure settings are correct in sound preferences (HDMI Output).
- Chose HDMI 7.1 (Rear Speakers) configuration in Audio Midi Setup. However when I click on each speaker in speaker setup, there is no sound.
- I am getting the full 7.1 channel choices in REW but no sound to my AV processor.
- Have checked the settings in my processor and have made sure all is correct - Audio and Video Input via HDMI port 2 where I have the connection.
- I spent several hours trying to get sound but no success, video worked but absolutely no audio.
- John Mulcahy points out that the Processor or AVR must be in a mode that supports multichannel PCM over the HDMI connection - There is no setting for PCM over HDMI so I presume this feature is in-built into my processor, it's an old processor but works without a problem.

The idea here is to send test signals (Sweeps and pink noise) to individual or groups of speakers over HDMI instead of plugging and unplugging an RCA cable to each channel.

This is really frustrating, any help will be appreciated.
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post #26663 of 27607 Old 03-12-2019, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
questions to be sure I'm doing this correct.. -

Should my AVR be in Multi-Channel In Mode?
To measure the Center, yes.


Quote:
For Output, should I select "Display Audio Output 1 3" in order to select the CENTER speaker?
Yep.
I recommend to always check, if the test signal is really coming from the correct speaker with the ear.
I not only once made a series of measurements just to notice later, after I packed away the mic and preamp, that the receiver was running in stereo or Dolby Surround mode...

Quote:
When you said pay attention to the "center impulse graph" - what is that exactly?
The impulse response from the center channel.
It shows how loud early reflections are. The louder they are, the more the sound becomes smeared and imprecise. As a general rule the peaks should not be louder than -20 dB after 2 ms.
But make sure in the impulse chart that REW calculated and detected the impulse peak correctly at 0 dB and 0 ms.


Quote:
And final and maybe most important question - if I'm unable to garner the results I'm looking for with little system tweaks - changing crossover, standing on my head, etc - is the next step room treatment? If so, what form of room treatment would I gain the most bass back if that makes sense?
Don't forget one fatastic option you have not mentioned: change of the listening position/distance to the screen.

Well, it depends on what the graphs show. I would focus on the biggest problem first.

Quote:
And I've played w/ the phase knob before - is it commonly used for matching 2 different or similar sounding subs? I only have one, but I may play around with this too!
I congratulate you to that approach. Trying things out, listen reference material carefully and measuring is the way to learn the most - and sometimes discover excellent surprising results without even spending tons of money.

You will also notice, by comapring different graphs with one changed setting, how the room reacts. That willhelp you develop a sense and additional understanding, what you could try.

REW also has a nice room simulator. Giver it a try. It can help you to get new ideas, if the MLP was changed or the sub placed differently.

Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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post #26664 of 27607 Old 03-12-2019, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
Okay, I ran some measurements! Did what you recommended and ran in Full Range, w/ and w/o Audy.
Well done.
You seem to have a very powerful sub. That's the good news. Teh bad news is: you do not hear it's potential at all at the measurement position.
I agree with ereed, that the very broad dip in the very important 50-70 Hz range - because mixes have the most bass energy there - is a problem. I'd say it's the biggest problem for now and you should try to find the reason for it.

I'd recommend to use the REW room calculator and check, if REW calculates one or maybe two cancellations at your measuring position with your room dimensions.
To me that 60 Hz dip seems a bit broad for one single mode.

Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.

Last edited by Skinfax1; 03-12-2019 at 09:28 AM.
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post #26665 of 27607 Old 03-12-2019, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
Okay, I ran some measurements! Did what you recommended and ran in Full Range, w/ and w/o Audy.

Towards the end I was finding the measurments using Small + Flat combo and making micro adjustments on my sub. I have it just a bit toed out now, and while "sub pretty far out" and "super toed out" were appealing as far as the dip around 140 is less pronounced, but they're not really feasible as far as walking around in my room.

Anyhow - this is the best I've come up with, again I am sure I am doing all of this wrong lol.

Feel free to make any recommendations and after all of this is done, once I got it as good as can, if I post some pics of my room can somoene help me make room treatment choices to help alleviate some of the p's and n's?

thanks all! oh and did not get around to messing around with phase..yet! Going to re-run audy w/ new sub positioning and see where I'm at!

Hard to read the graphs when they are set to Linear.

Per page 129 of AustinJerry's guide;
"The horizontal scale should be logarithmic, not linear (use the toolbar icon “Freq. Axis” to toggle between linear and logarithmic)."
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post #26666 of 27607 Old 03-12-2019, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
I am interested in individual speaker and room response measurements using REW. I have connected my MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2015 - 2.2 GHz Intel Core i7) to my processor via a 20m HDMI cable using the HDMI port on my Mac laptop that is currently running Mac OS High Sierra 10.13.6

This is what I have tried:-

- Made sure settings are correct in sound preferences (HDMI Output).
- Chose HDMI 7.1 (Rear Speakers) configuration in Audio Midi Setup. However when I click on each speaker in speaker setup, there is no sound.
- I am getting the full 7.1 channel choices in REW but no sound to my AV processor.
- Have checked the settings in my processor and have made sure all is correct - Audio and Video Input via HDMI port 2 where I have the connection.
- I spent several hours trying to get sound but no success, video worked but absolutely no audio.
- John Mulcahy points out that the Processor or AVR must be in a mode that supports multichannel PCM over the HDMI connection - There is no setting for PCM over HDMI so I presume this feature is in-built into my processor, it's an old processor but works without a problem.

The idea here is to send test signals (Sweeps and pink noise) to individual or groups of speakers over HDMI instead of plugging and unplugging an RCA cable to each channel.

This is really frustrating, any help will be appreciated.

Please help - I'm sure there are a ton of Mac users using REW in here.
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post #26667 of 27607 Old 03-12-2019, 11:05 AM
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Austin Jerry, I know you are a REW expert - can you kindly help buddy ?
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post #26668 of 27607 Old 03-12-2019, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
Please help - I'm sure there are a ton of Mac users using REW in here.
Did you try disabling your built in speakers?




65" 900E Tee Vee | Denon 6300H AVR | PSA MTM-210s | PSA MTM-210c | PSA MTM-110s | Canton 880 InCeilings | Rythmik FV25HP
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post #26669 of 27607 Old 03-12-2019, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
Please help - I'm sure there are a ton of Mac users using REW in here.
Sorry. I am a Mac user and have had no trouble getting the sound to play via HDMI, so it is hard to know why you are having trouble. My first debugging question is, do you see your desktop on the display screen? If so you have a good HDMI connection between your laptop the AVR and the display. If not...... Obvious I know, but first things first - sort of like, is it plugged in the power on.

BTW, I have a late 2013 MacBook Pro with an HDMI out, but I typically use a mini display port to HDMI cable to connect to my pre/pro when using REW.

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post #26670 of 27607 Old 03-12-2019, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
Please help - I'm sure there are a ton of Mac users using REW in here.
Am I reading that correctly...you are using a 20m HDMI cable (as in 20 meters)? Typically, 50 feet is right around the stable max.
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