Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 890 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #26671 of 27620 Old 03-12-2019, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
Austin Jerry, I know you are a REW expert - can you kindly help buddy ?
Sorry, Sam, I don’t think I can be of any help. The fact that you are getting no sound even before you launch REW indicates to me the problem is not REW-related, but rather something with the Mac, your AVR, or the cable. I am not a Mac user.
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post #26672 of 27620 Old 03-12-2019, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
The 70hz dip area is what I would be concerned about. I'm assuming this is just subs only? What crossover are you using or is the subs full range with highest xover enabled? If that is the case then you need to move the sub around to get rid of that dip or add another sub.

Also you mentioned the 140hz dip. That is cause you have 70hz dip so its happening in multiples of 70hz which make sense. If your subs have 140hz dip I would not worry about that since you will have center channel to help clean that up when its engaged. I'd just worry about that 70hz area first.
ereed,

Thanks for your feedback much appreciated man!

Crossover was set @ 80hz for all measurments. I had it set at 90 and 100hz for a few but it didn't really change much so I dind't include the measurments. Also my MT-210's are only rated down to 70hz so I didn't want to castrate them further if that makes sense (I'm sure it doesen't! Lol)

I will focus on the 70hz dip and see what I can do to alleviate that! I will try to moving the sub to the back back corner tonight perhaps and I will be getting a second sub before long - but I'm going crazy and getting the JTR 4000ULF - I know that matchingness w/ the FV25HP will not be optimal, but I'm a nut and up to getting nutty!

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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
Well done.
You seem to have a very powerful sub. That's the good news. Teh bad news is: you do not hear it's potential at all at the measurement position.
I agree with ereed, that the very broad dip in the very important 50-70 Hz range - because mixes have the most bass energy there - is a problem. I'd say it's the biggest problem for now and you should try to find the reason for it.

I'd recommend to use the REW room calculator and check, if REW calculates one or maybe two cancellations at your measuring position with your room dimensions.
To me that 60 Hz dip seems a bit broad for one single mode.



Skinfax1,

Thank you and I will check next time with my ear as well I definitely screwed up some measurments in the very beginning (before I posted) with my amp on stereo

I will try and pay attention to the impulse response but how am I able to check to make sure in the implulse chart that REW calculated and detected the impulse peak correctly at 0db and 0ms?

As far as changing the listening posiiton, all of the measurments were taken from my MLP, and I know just by sitting on different areas on my couch, the bass definitely changes but I hadn't taken any measurments from that area as I have an L shaped couch and I always sit at the optimal center position.

The way my living room is setup, and how the speakers are mounted on the wall, and how my Atmos (x4) are situated, I have very limited adjustments I am able to make as I will not be in the center of the atmos speakers or in the middle of the surrounds.

The only option I see now as far as moving listening position would be getting a 75 or 85 LED, putting it back on the wall instead of the mount having it hanging off now, moving the Fronts and center speaker back a bit and moving the couch up. As stated I cannot move the couch back as that will put me out of the atmos and surround square.

Re: bad news, yes, I know that dip is a problem I will continue to test and tweak but should I just cover all of my walls with foam? Lol will that help, or just make everything sound weird?

Thank you again for your help man I really appreciate it and I will look into the room simulator as well!

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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Hard to read the graphs when they are set to Linear.

Per page 129 of AustinJerry's guide;
"The horizontal scale should be logarithmic, not linear (use the toolbar icon “Freq. Axis” to toggle between linear and logarithmic)."


Alan P,

I will set the graphs to logarithmic tonight and let you know! Thank you for the correction!!


Be back tonight with measurements hopefully! Also, if anyone does have any suggestion on where to place foam in order to try and nullify that null, I am open to suggestion! I have foam!




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post #26673 of 27620 Old 03-12-2019, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Am I reading that correctly...you are using a 20m HDMI cable (as in 20 meters)? Typically, 50 feet is right around the stable max.
Actually I think the maximum length for a cooper cable is much less than 50' I am using a 50' fiber optic cable to get from my pre/pro to my projector, and for certain my cooper HDMI cable didn't not work at this distance for 4K. HD, no problem.

Again my first question is, do you see the laptop desktop on the display screen? That is the check for a good HDMI connection. If there is not a connection it should be easy enough to test with a 6' cable.

I had the same problem at the church trying to use my laptop with a new 4K TV they bought and a long cooper cable. Copper - No connection, Fiber optic - works every time.

Good catch!
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post #26674 of 27620 Old 03-12-2019, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
ereed,

Thanks for your feedback much appreciated man!

Crossover was set @ 80hz for all measurments. I had it set at 90 and 100hz for a few but it didn't really change much so I dind't include the measurments. Also my MT-210's are only rated down to 70hz so I didn't want to castrate them further if that makes sense (I'm sure it doesen't! Lol)

I will focus on the 70hz dip and see what I can do to alleviate that! I will try to moving the sub to the back back corner tonight perhaps and I will be getting a second sub before long - but I'm going crazy and getting the JTR 4000ULF - I know that matchingness w/ the FV25HP will not be optimal, but I'm a nut and up to getting nutty!


I have foam!

Its hard by reading your labels on graph. Post a measurement of the sub only full range (highest on sub and highest or disable in avr) in measurement of 15-300hz. Also post the center channel only full range with no xover set as 15-300hz.

Point of this is to see where the dips are happening on the sub and center itself and that alone will help you decide which xover to use. Post those 2 measurements and I can help.

Also its very very rare to get smooth response with 1 sub.....once you get 2nd sub you can get it time aligned with other sub and re-run measurements.

And please get real bass traps....foam doesn't do anything. Well maybe in the very high freq but not for low frequencies.
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post #26675 of 27620 Old 03-12-2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Am I reading that correctly...you are using a 20m HDMI cable (as in 20 meters)? Typically, 50 feet is right around the stable max.
I felt that could be the problem and now that you've mentioned it - I'll try with a short HDMI cable.

Thank you Alan
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post #26676 of 27620 Old 03-12-2019, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
Be back tonight with measurements hopefully! Also, if anyone does have any suggestion on where to place foam in order to try and nullify that null, I am open to suggestion! I have foam!
Foam is not worth any effort. Rock wool works great there's insulation made from recycled denim that works.
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post #26677 of 27620 Old 03-12-2019, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Its hard by reading your labels on graph. Post a measurement of the sub only full range (highest on sub and highest or disable in avr) in measurement of 15-300hz. Also post the center channel only full range with no xover set as 15-300hz.

Point of this is to see where the dips are happening on the sub and center itself and that alone will help you decide which xover to use. Post those 2 measurements and I can help.

Also its very very rare to get smooth response with 1 sub.....once you get 2nd sub you can get it time aligned with other sub and re-run measurements.

And please get real bass traps....foam doesn't do anything. Well maybe in the very high freq but not for low frequencies.
When you say post measurment of the sub only full range do you mean by doing the following:

-setting the speakers to large

-setting the LPE for LFE to 250 (which is the highest)

-set the crossover to 250 for the center

-set the PEQ to Max on the sub? http://www.rythmikaudio.com/download...quickguide.pdf

Thanks! and unfortuneately I didn't get time to run REW today but tomorrow it will be on my list of things to do!

As far as the bass traps would I need say corner bass traps or something more substantial?




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post #26678 of 27620 Old 03-13-2019, 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
I felt that could be the problem and now that you've mentioned it - I'll try with a short HDMI cable.
Hopefully it's just your cable, but I'm on High Sierra as well; here's how it works for me.

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post #26679 of 27620 Old 03-13-2019, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
As far as the bass traps would I need say corner bass traps or something more substantial?
You don't even know yet, what the reason for the dip is and the recommendations to buy something already come in. I wouldn't follow them.
You don't know how the RT60 looks like.
What you want to avoid, is an unnatural RT60 shaped curve, many home cinema users get, when they begin with broadband absorbers and basstraps. Make sure the RT60 does no invert! This is hugely important for a natural and powerful sound. IMO it sounds much better to be on the long end of the RT60 tolerance in the lower frequencies than having an inverted RT60.

Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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post #26680 of 27620 Old 03-13-2019, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
When you say post measurment of the sub only full range do you mean by doing the following:

-setting the speakers to large

-setting the LPE for LFE to 250 (which is the highest)

-set the crossover to 250 for the center

-set the PEQ to Max on the sub? http://www.rythmikaudio.com/download...quickguide.pdf

Thanks! and unfortuneately I didn't get time to run REW today but tomorrow it will be on my list of things to do!

As far as the bass traps would I need say corner bass traps or something more substantial?
Yes, each speaker should be measured full range on their own, also subs should be measured with highest xover like you mentioned. Then pick xover point 80 or 100hz depending on how your center and subs look on their own and then run center and sub together with xover point you choose. Then finally use sub distance tweak in prepro to get xover area flat.

As far as bass traps goes, corners is where they collect low frequency waves so that's where I would start.

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post #26681 of 27620 Old 03-13-2019, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
You don't even know yet, what the reason for the dip is and the recommendations to buy something already come in. I wouldn't follow them.
You don't know how the RT60 looks like.
What you want to avoid, is an unnatural RT60 shaped curve, many home cinema users get, when they begin with broadband absorbers and basstraps. Make sure the RT60 does no invert! This is hugely important for a natural and powerful sound. IMO it sounds much better to be on the long end of the RT60 tolerance in the lower frequencies than having an inverted RT60.
We are talking strictly bass traps here that are in corners. You can never have too much bass trapping. You can have too much mid/hi freq trapping yes....but never for low frequencies. Regardless how your RT60 looks, bass traps in corners will never hurt and will improve bass decay times. Best way to look for ULF decay is the waterfall and spectrogram graphs....not the RT60.

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post #26682 of 27620 Old 03-13-2019, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
You don't even know yet, what the reason for the dip is and the recommendations to buy something already come in. I wouldn't follow them.
You don't know how the RT60 looks like.
What you want to avoid, is an unnatural RT60 shaped curve, many home cinema users get, when they begin with broadband absorbers and basstraps. Make sure the RT60 does no invert! This is hugely important for a natural and powerful sound. IMO it sounds much better to be on the long end of the RT60 tolerance in the lower frequencies than having an inverted RT60.
You make recommendations based on the RT60 curve without explaining exactly what you mean. For example, what does “an unnatural RT60 shaped curve” look like? Perhaps you can post examples of a natural and an unnatural RT60 curve, from your perspective? And what does an inverted RT60 look like?

The correlation between the RT60 measurement and “good sounding audio” is unclear to me. Perhaps you can provide a link to the theory behind this claim? Personally, I rely on the Waterfall and Spectrogram to assess bass quality, and use the ETC measurement to identify and eliminate unwanted reflections in the spectral range. Emphasis on “unwanted”, not “all”. And I agree with Ereed—it is difficult to over-trap in the modal region.
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post #26683 of 27620 Old 03-13-2019, 08:34 AM
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@AustinJerry
Sorry, I will not use Google for you. The info is not hard to find. But to answer the question: a naturally shaped RT60 shows increasing decay times with decreasing frequency. With inverted I mean i.e. bass decay times being shorter than the midrange. That's an unnatural behaviour and our brain has problems to judge sound correctly in such an artifically sounding environment. Listening is quite stressing and fatigue sets in earlier compared to sooms with a natural decay behaviour.

While it's great if people understand the importance of room acoustics, it's also important to understand not to overdo things.
It's a step by step process and there's no need to act in a hurry to get bass traps and absorbers before all the data is available, analyzed and understood.

Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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post #26684 of 27620 Old 03-13-2019, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
@AustinJerry
Sorry, I will not use Google for you. The info is not hard to find. But to answer the question: a naturally shaped RT60 shows increasing decay times with decreasing frequency. With inverted I mean i.e. bass decay times being shorter than the midrange. That's an unnatural behaviour and our brain has problems to judge sound correctly in such an artifically sounding environment. Listening is quite stressing and fatigue sets in earlier compared to sooms with a natural decay behaviour.

While it's great if people understand the importance of room acoustics, it's also important to understand not to overdo things.
It's a step by step process and there's no need to act in a hurry to get bass traps and absorbers before all the data is available, analyzed and understood.
I actually know how to use Google, thanks. My point is that when providing advice, it is always useful to provide some context that makes the advice more useful. For example, using the following link http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/und...-measurements/, from Nayal Mellor, a noted room acoustics expert, I find these simple guidelines:

Our targets, taken from our Acoustic Measurement Standards white paper, are:

Time taken for sound to decay 60dB (T60) should be between 0.2s and 0.5s from 250Hz to 4kHz.
T20 and T30 should be within +/- 25% from 250Hz to 4kHz when using one third octave smoothed bands.


Using my own room as an example, here is a RT60 that falls within the guidelines. One might say that my room is heavily treated, which does not seem to be adversely affecting the RT60. Providing simple guidelines and examples is more in the spirit of this thread.
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post #26685 of 27620 Old 03-13-2019, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Yes, each speaker should be measured full range on their own, also subs should be measured with highest xover like you mentioned. Then pick xover point 80 or 100hz depending on how your center and subs look on their own and then run center and sub together with xover point you choose. Then finally use sub distance tweak in prepro to get xover area flat.

As far as bass traps goes, corners is where they collect low frequency waves so that's where I would start.
Thanks Ereed, I will do that tonight.

To recap I will be:
Running speakers on Full w/ LPE on LFE at 120hz (normal) Take Measurment on L,R and C.
Running speakers on Full w/ LPE on LFE at 250hz , Take Measurment on L,R and C.
Running speakers on Small w/ LPE on LFE at 120hz , crossover on speakers at 80hz, take measurment on L,R and C.
Running speakers on Small w/ LPE on LFE at 250hz, crossover on speakers at 80hz, take measurement on L,R and C.
Running speakers on Small w/ LPE on LFE at 120hz , crossover on speakers at 90hz, take measurment on L,R and C.
Running speakers on Small w/ LPE on LFE at 250hz, crossover on speakers at 90hz, take measurement on L,R and C.
Running speakers on Small w/ LPE on LFE at 120hz , crossover on speakers at 100hz, take measurment on L,R and C.
Running speakers on Small w/ LPE on LFE at 250hz, crossover on speakers at 100hz, take measurement on L,R and C.

^ Is that right? If you can tell, I'm still a bit confused

Edit: Oh and should these measurments be ran with Audyssey Flat, Ref, off or all of the above?

^ Note that the above does not include any PEQ or frequency adjustments on the actual sub itself - which is something that I haven't done before, but I believe that PEQ is whole nother rabbit whole..and one that may be able to help me, but one that I am entirely unfamiliar with.

As far as the sub distance tweak - I do not know what that is, but I am researching and I think it's just done by subtracting a few feet that Audy sets my sub at?

As far as the bass traps - just thought I'd ask - and I will focus on the corners when I start research in that area, thank you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You make recommendations based on the RT60 curve without explaining exactly what you mean. For example, what does “an unnatural RT60 shaped curve” look like? Perhaps you can post examples of a natural and an unnatural RT60 curve, from your perspective? And what does an inverted RT60 look like?

The correlation between the RT60 measurement and “good sounding audio” is unclear to me. Perhaps you can provide a link to the theory behind this claim? Personally, I rely on the Waterfall and Spectrogram to assess bass quality, and use the ETC measurement to identify and eliminate unwanted reflections in the spectral range. Emphasis on “unwanted”, not “all”. And I agree with Ereed—it is difficult to over-trap in the modal region.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
@AustinJerry
Sorry, I will not use Google for you. The info is not hard to find. But to answer the question: a naturally shaped RT60 shows increasing decay times with decreasing frequency. With inverted I mean i.e. bass decay times being shorter than the midrange. That's an unnatural behaviour and our brain has problems to judge sound correctly in such an artifically sounding environment. Listening is quite stressing and fatigue sets in earlier compared to sooms with a natural decay behaviour.

While it's great if people understand the importance of room acoustics, it's also important to understand not to overdo things.
It's a step by step process and there's no need to act in a hurry to get bass traps and absorbers before all the data is available, analyzed and understood.

Hey guys - thanks for the info and for the record I did not know what a RT60 was at all when first mentioned haha, but after I've done some googling, I have a small degree of understanding. Not that I'm going to attempt to explain how it works or anything ..ha.

As far as the room acoustics I wasn't gung-go on getting room treatment asap and I know this isn't exactly the correct sub-forum for that - just thought I'd mention it as I heard from around the way that bass traps, room treatment, etc could improve room/sub performance so I thought I'd ask.

Anyhow, thank you all for your help and I hope everyone has a great day!




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post #26686 of 27620 Old 03-13-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Using my own room as an example, here is a RT60 that falls within the guidelines. One might say that my room is heavily treated, which does not seem to be adversely affecting the RT60. Providing simple guidelines and examples is more in the spirit of this thread.
The graph doesn't use the 3rd octave display I am used to. And it stops above the bass.
The size of the room plays a big role when it comes to acceptable reverberation times. You don't mention it.
Is it a living room or a dedicated cave?
Simple guidelines and examples, you know...

Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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post #26687 of 27620 Old 03-13-2019, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
The graph doesn't use the 3rd octave display I am used to. And it stops above the bass.
The size of the room plays a big role when it comes to acceptable reverberation times. You don't mention it.
Is it a living room or a dedicated cave?
Simple guidelines and examples, you know...
REW Controls offers only two smoothing options--1/3 Octave and full octave. The graph I displayed is 1/3 octave. And the guidelines I posted from Nayal Mellor specifically state that the range to inspect is 250Hz to 4KHz, which is what I displayed.

And the room is a living room, not a dedicated home theater.

And you are avoiding answering my questions. What does an inverted RT60 look like, and is the RT60 that I posted look reasonable to you (within the frequency range that I posted)? How about showing us your RT60 so we can see what you are talking about?
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post #26688 of 27620 Old 03-13-2019, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
Thanks Ereed, I will do that tonight.

To recap I will be:
Running speakers on Full w/ LPE on LFE at 120hz (normal) Take Measurment on L,R and C.
Running speakers on Full w/ LPE on LFE at 250hz , Take Measurment on L,R and C.
Running speakers on Small w/ LPE on LFE at 120hz , crossover on speakers at 80hz, take measurment on L,R and C.
Running speakers on Small w/ LPE on LFE at 250hz, crossover on speakers at 80hz, take measurement on L,R and C.
Running speakers on Small w/ LPE on LFE at 120hz , crossover on speakers at 90hz, take measurment on L,R and C.
Running speakers on Small w/ LPE on LFE at 250hz, crossover on speakers at 90hz, take measurement on L,R and C.
Running speakers on Small w/ LPE on LFE at 120hz , crossover on speakers at 100hz, take measurment on L,R and C.
Running speakers on Small w/ LPE on LFE at 250hz, crossover on speakers at 100hz, take measurement on L,R and C.

^ Is that right? If you can tell, I'm still a bit confused

Edit: Oh and should these measurments be ran with Audyssey Flat, Ref, off or all of the above?

^ Note that the above does not include any PEQ or frequency adjustments on the actual sub itself - which is something that I haven't done before, but I believe that PEQ is whole nother rabbit whole..and one that may be able to help me, but one that I am entirely unfamiliar with.

As far as the sub distance tweak - I do not know what that is, but I am researching and I think it's just done by subtracting a few feet that Audy sets my sub at?

As far as the bass traps - just thought I'd ask - and I will focus on the corners when I start research in that area, thank you.
Yes just run each speaker in full range 15hz to 20,000hz without subwoofer on and without any xover point interfering with it. That is left speaker only, right only, center only.

Also run your sub full range 15 to 300hz only with no xover bothering it.

Run all this without any Audessey engaged. Just a graph of 4 measurements for now and save them.

Don't worry about PEQs or sub distance tweak at the moment.
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post #26689 of 27620 Old 03-13-2019, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
REW Controls offers only two smoothing options--1/3 Octave and full octave. The graph I displayed is 1/3 octave.
Why do you think bars are used for 1/3rd octave displays and not the line display you just used?

Quote:
And the guidelines I posted from Nayal Mellor specifically state that the range to inspect is 250Hz to 4KHz, which is what I displayed.
Just like waterfall diagrams may only be used for the first 300 ms?

Quote:
And you are avoiding answering my questions.
It doesn't become true, if you repeat it.
Quote:
What does an inverted RT60 look like
See my easy to understand explanation above.
Quote:
and is the RT60 that I posted look reasonable to you (within the frequency range that I posted)?
Absolutely.
Quote:
How about showing us your RT60 so we can see what you are talking about?
I'm afraid not with such a tone.
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Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.

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post #26690 of 27620 Old 03-14-2019, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Yes just run each speaker in full range 15hz to 20,000hz without subwoofer on and without any xover point interfering with it. That is left speaker only, right only, center only.

Also run your sub full range 15 to 300hz only with no xover bothering it.

Run all this without any Audessey engaged. Just a graph of 4 measurements for now and save them.

Don't worry about PEQs or sub distance tweak at the moment.
I *think* I've got what you've asked for .. let me know

The measurements that are attached are:

Front L in Full Range - sub OFF

Front R in Full Range - sub OFF

Front C in Full Range - sub OFF

Front LCR in small, Measurement set to Center Speaker. crossover set to 250 sub ON.

All measurements are with Audy off and I didn't know if you wanted me to run the LPF for LFE higher than 120hz, so I left that as is at 120hz for all measurements..

I also included linear and logarithmic for each.
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post #26691 of 27620 Old 03-14-2019, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
I *think* I've got what you've asked for .. let me know

The measurements that are attached are:

Front L in Full Range - sub OFF

Front R in Full Range - sub OFF

Front C in Full Range - sub OFF

Front LCR in small, Measurement set to Center Speaker. crossover set to 250 sub ON.

All measurements are with Audy off and I didn't know if you wanted me to run the LPF for LFE higher than 120hz, so I left that as is at 120hz for all measurements..

I also included linear and logarithmic for each.
Thanks for posting the measurements. It should be set in Log scale format.

I'm seeing 60hz and 80hz dips on all your LCR measurements. This could be speaker placement issue or simply where your MLP is located.

Your sub graph are showing same similar behavior between 50 and 90hz. Again could be placement and or seating. But are you sure that is sub only? When its subs only the center should not be involved....simply use HDMI 4 which will disable all your speakers except the subs. Regardless....the 50 to 90hz needs improved which is very important region.

Got images of your setup?


You mentioned you got another sub coming in....that second sub when time aligned should clean up that area as long as your MLP isn't in a null spot. But we really want that first sub to be better so play with placement. I recommend to use hdmi 4 output and just get the subs better position before attempting to run center+subs.

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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Am I reading that correctly...you are using a 20m HDMI cable (as in 20 meters)? Typically, 50 feet is right around the stable max.
Hi Alan, just like John Mulcahy, you were absolutely correct, a 20m cable is far too long and unreliable. As soon as I made the connection with a 5m HDMI cable, everything started working.

A big thanks to other members too for trying to help.
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post #26693 of 27620 Old 03-14-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
REW Controls offers only two smoothing options--1/3 Octave and full octave. The graph I displayed is 1/3 octave. And the guidelines I posted from Nayal Mellor specifically state that the range to inspect is 250Hz to 4KHz, which is what I displayed.

And the room is a living room, not a dedicated home theater.

And you are avoiding answering my questions. What does an inverted RT60 look like, and is the RT60 that I posted look reasonable to you (within the frequency range that I posted)? How about showing us your RT60 so we can see what you are talking about?
Hi Austin, I managed to resolve my connection problem - it was due to the length of the HDMI cable that I was using, in other words it was too long.

I'm interested in measuring the RT60 of my dedicated HT, John Mulcahy was very kind and explained how to do this but I've forgotten and can't seem to locate his response.

I do remember John telling me that REW extrapolates the RT60 from a response measurement via a sweep. Could you kindly assist me with the following:-
  1. What speaker do you use for the sweep specifically for TR60 ? - I presume it is the centre speaker.
  2. What value do I look at ? - I'm trying to achieve between quarter and half of a second.
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post #26694 of 27620 Old 03-14-2019, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Thanks for posting the measurements. It should be set in Log scale format.

I'm seeing 60hz and 80hz dips on all your LCR measurements. This could be speaker placement issue or simply where your MLP is located.

Your sub graph are showing same similar behavior between 50 and 90hz. Again could be placement and or seating. But are you sure that is sub only? When its subs only the center should not be involved....simply use HDMI 4 which will disable all your speakers except the subs. Regardless....the 50 to 90hz needs improved which is very important region.

Got images of your setup?


You mentioned you got another sub coming in....that second sub when time aligned should clean up that area as long as your MLP isn't in a null spot. But we really want that first sub to be better so play with placement. I recommend to use hdmi 4 output and just get the subs better position before attempting to run center+subs.
Hey thanks for looking - and log from here on out, got it!

And yeah it's probably a bit of both - you'll see from the pictures - it's an open room and the sectional I have in here may eat up some bass, among other things. I am on a suspended wood floor and it's a pretty old home. Edit: read below - the right side of the sectional is the "bassiest" on the couch.

And yeah my apologies as what I did was just set the speakers to small and ran it on output 3. When you're saying use HDMI 4 do you mean on the denon AVR or the output - output 4 ? I think you mean on REW, so I will try that in a little bit.

See attached images on here, it's semi-unchangable I'd say. I'd have to ask the dogs, I do like the sectional how it is now but I could remove the piece on the wall and see if the response changes any? Ha. Also forgive the mess of wires, there's usually a small ottoman there but I've been toying with things recently so I removed it for now for easy access

Thanks for the advice on the second sub. It may be a bit - kind of waiting for JTR's amp troubles to hopefully not be an issue any longer. I don' think many or any have been reported on the 4000 but I'm waiting it out a bit just to be safe! I'm sure when I get the 4000 - as I'll be matching it w/ the FV25HP I'll probably go all crazypants w/ the minidsp, etc to get the best of both worlds, absolute best positioning, PEQ, etc but for now I'll see what I can do.

Semi Update, haven't measured yet - but did the thing that I never did before, or at least in a long time and I sat on the other side of the couch! Lol.

By sitting near the front right speaker on the couch and the bass is easily 32% louder there and that entire side of the couch the bass feels stronger, especially in my chest. Perhaps I'll do some measurements now and put the mic there and see what I come up with. I could have swore when I did the sub crawl before there was next to no bass in that region but I could be wrong... hmm

Thanks again man!
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post #26695 of 27620 Old 03-14-2019, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
Hey thanks for looking - and log from here on out, got it!

And yeah it's probably a bit of both - you'll see from the pictures - it's an open room and the sectional I have in here may eat up some bass, among other things. I am on a suspended wood floor and it's a pretty old home. Edit: read below - the right side of the sectional is the "bassiest" on the couch.

And yeah my apologies as what I did was just set the speakers to small and ran it on output 3. When you're saying use HDMI 4 do you mean on the denon AVR or the output - output 4 ? I think you mean on REW, so I will try that in a little bit.

See attached images on here, it's semi-unchangable I'd say. I'd have to ask the dogs, I do like the sectional how it is now but I could remove the piece on the wall and see if the response changes any? Ha. Also forgive the mess of wires, there's usually a small ottoman there but I've been toying with things recently so I removed it for now for easy access

Thanks for the advice on the second sub. It may be a bit - kind of waiting for JTR's amp troubles to hopefully not be an issue any longer. I don' think many or any have been reported on the 4000 but I'm waiting it out a bit just to be safe! I'm sure when I get the 4000 - as I'll be matching it w/ the FV25HP I'll probably go all crazypants w/ the minidsp, etc to get the best of both worlds, absolute best positioning, PEQ, etc but for now I'll see what I can do.

By sitting near the front right speaker on the couch and the bass is easily 32% louder there and that entire side of the couch the bass feels stronger, especially in my chest. Perhaps I'll do some measurements now and put the mic there and see what I come up with. I could have swore when I did the sub crawl before there was next to no bass in that region but I could be wrong... hmm

Thanks again man!
Gonna try to answer all your questions.

I'm also in open plan living room and have a sectional as well. The side closest to wall will always have more bass than opening side which is normal since bass builds up there.

Yes, REW output. Output 1 = Left speaker, 2= right, 3= center, 4= subs(LFE), and so on. Just when doing speaker plus subs make sure xoverpoint is enabled and subs on. Otherwise subs off and full range from each speaker.

I wouldn't worry about changing the sectional if you find it comfy and like it in your room. Its not really that important as sub placement itself.

Personally I would have matching subs since its ported and you want all subs to have same port tune. I'd get another FV25HP unless you get dual jtrs and sell the rythmik. Trust me, its easier to have identical subs especially when they are ported models.

Just like side walls, bass will be even stronger in corners since it boosts all frequencies.

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post #26696 of 27620 Old 03-14-2019, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Gonna try to answer all your questions.

I'm also in open plan living room and have a sectional as well. The side closest to wall will always have more bass than opening side which is normal since bass builds up there.

Yes, REW output. Output 1 = Left speaker, 2= right, 3= center, 4= subs(LFE), and so on. Just when doing speaker plus subs make sure xoverpoint is enabled and subs on. Otherwise subs off and full range from each speaker.

I wouldn't worry about changing the sectional if you find it comfy and like it in your room. Its not really that important as sub placement itself.

Personally I would have matching subs since its ported and you want all subs to have same port tune. I'd get another FV25HP unless you get dual jtrs and sell the rythmik. Trust me, its easier to have identical subs especially when they are ported models.

Just like side walls, bass will be even stronger in corners since it boosts all frequencies.
And this is coming from the guy that said:

"This is exactly why some people run different subs and cut them off at specific frequencies. Such as sealed subs for 50hz and below and horn subs such as orbit shifter, skhorn, etc for 50hz and up for that midbass slam! That is a potent combination and it can get expensive! Hard to get one sub to do it all"

Haha

But I know what you mean - adding another FV25HP would definitely give me the smoothest cleanest response across the board and the room. Thing is, I want my eyeballs and stomach to wiggle, I want my feet to tremble and my ankles to dislocate whilst listening to LFE output and I know that's what the 4000 will give me.

The goal as you mentioned will be dual 4000's but also keeping the FV25HP to go duals also in a different room in the future. In the meantime (in the near future/once I feel confident about the QC and CS issues of JTR), I will match them and play around with them both, see if I can get them to play nice, etc.

Anyhoo - glad I don't have to rearrange my livingroom and perhaps tomorrow I'll experiment with throwing the sub a few places throughout the room and taking measurements.

Attached is just the sub/HDMI 4. Also I took measurements from the side wall couch side as well.

The results are interesting to say the least, as my body confirmed earlier - the upper bass FR at the side wall side of the couch are much higher than at MLP.

Is there anything I can do to correct this dippage @ the MLP though other than moving my sub or living room around? Bass traps? PEQ? Distance Tweak? I will probably move the sub to the back of the room tomorrow and take some measurements but that's not really feasible long term as my dogs hang out on that back chaise and stare out the window like I don't run them multiple times per day.

But thinking about it... I *could* maybe possibly throw the FV25HP right behind my couch sideways on the floor with a run underneath with the drivers facing the couch. The only thing is the wires would be exposed in the back but I think I could situate it to where they're out of harms way.. hmm..
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post #26697 of 27620 Old 03-15-2019, 06:40 AM
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@javan robinson

Yeah, that comment was in another thread about mixing horns and sealed subs....but ONLY if you cut them off with filters so diff subs play what they are best at.....NOT all of them full range.

The side wall does improve that dip....but I would not move the MLP to side wall. Need to try measurements on rear behind couch and other walls just to see the response. Its going to be hard with just one sub....with 2nd sub it will smooth the response. Also adding bass traps will help with decay.

I don't think you have minidsp so forget PEQs for now. If your AVR supports dual subs and each have their own delay then you don't need minidsp.

Maybe a smaller rythmik sub behind your couch that compliments your farfield would help with TR. Its hard predicting with one sub...that's the point of taking measurements. But you did mention you prob will go with dual jtr subs and move the rythmik. 2 diff brands subs could work...only way to know is set them up and play with it.

As far as sub distance tweak....that is only when running center+sub measurement to get xover flat. I don't think you posted any center full range hdmi 3 output measurements? Could you post that without the sub on? Just use hdmi 3 output and disconnect the sub and disable xover (or run center as large) in the avr. Seeing just the sub only measurement and center only measurement can show you which xover is best. 80hz is good starting point but not always best based on room's freq response.

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post #26698 of 27620 Old 03-15-2019, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
Hi Austin, I managed to resolve my connection problem - it was due to the length of the HDMI cable that I was using, in other words it was too long.

I'm interested in measuring the RT60 of my dedicated HT, John Mulcahy was very kind and explained how to do this but I've forgotten and can't seem to locate his response.

I do remember John telling me that REW extrapolates the RT60 from a response measurement via a sweep. Could you kindly assist me with the following:-
  1. What speaker do you use for the sweep specifically for TR60 ? - I presume it is the centre speaker.
  2. What value do I look at ? - I'm trying to achieve between quarter and half of a second.
I am happy to hear that the shorter cable fixed your issue. I'll try and answer your questions.

If you want to read a description of the RT60 measurement and how to interpret it, I recommend "Acoustic Measurement Standards for Stereo Listening Rooms" by Nyal Mellor. I included a short description of what to look for in a previous post. These are Nyal's guidelines, not my own (I rarely use the RT60 measurement).

"Time taken for sound to decay 60dB (T60) should be between 0.2s and 0.5s from 250Hz to 4kHz.
T20 and T30 should be within +/- 25% from 250Hz to 4kHz when using one third octave smoothed bands.
"

I have attached an example of the RT60 measurement, this time with the setting "Use bars on plot" as suggested by a previous poster.

To generate the RT60:

- Measure your speakers individually, 15Hz to 20KHz. You can generate the RT60 from any of the speaker measurements, it doesn't matter. And the speakers can be set to large or small, also doesn't matter.

- Select one of the measurements.

- Click the RT60 tab on the REW toolbar.

- The RT60 will generate automatically, with a progress bar in the lower right corner.

- Open the Controls tool and make sure "one third octave bands" and "use bars on plot" are set.
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post #26699 of 27620 Old 03-15-2019, 10:01 AM
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@Sam Ash :

I originally said "Measure your speakers individually, 15Hz to 20KHz. You can generate the RT60 from any of the speaker measurements, it doesn't matter. And the speakers can be set to large or small, also doesn't matter."

I went back and generated the RT60 for my three front speakers to compare them. There are actually some differences, but IMO the differences are not large enough to be of any concern. You may want to make the same comparison yourself.
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post #26700 of 27620 Old 03-15-2019, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I am happy to hear that the shorter cable fixed your issue. I'll try and answer your questions.

If you want to read a description of the RT60 measurement and how to interpret it, I recommend "Acoustic Measurement Standards for Stereo Listening Rooms" by Nayal Mellor. I included a short description of what to look for in a previous post. These are Nayal's guidelines, not my own (I rarely use the RT60 measurement).

"Time taken for sound to decay 60dB (T60) should be between 0.2s and 0.5s from 250Hz to 4kHz.
T20 and T30 should be within +/- 25% from 250Hz to 4kHz when using one third octave smoothed bands.
"

I have attached an example of the RT60 measurement, this time with the setting "Use bars on plot" as suggested by a previous poster.

To generate the RT60:

- Measure your speakers individually, 15Hz to 20KHz. You can generate the RT60 from any of the speaker measurements, it doesn't matter. And the speakers can be set to large or small, also doesn't matter.

- Select one of the measurements.

- Click the RT60 tab on the REW toolbar.

- The RT60 will generate automatically, with a progress bar in the lower right corner.

- Open the Controls tool and make sure "one third octave bands" and "use bars on plot" are set.
I've never played with RT60 since its not mentioned in the REW guide and never understood what it means. Thought to try it for first time today and post my RT60 graph. This is from center speaker. If anyone familiar with RT60 wants to analyze it be my guest!
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