Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 911 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #27301 of 27503 Old 05-22-2019, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevnmin View Post
I was under the impression that I should measure and create individual PEQ filters for each sub individually on the output side of MiniDSP, then let Audyssey do its job with the combined signal coming from the input side of Mini.
What you describe is an approach typically referred to as "subwoofer optimization", where each sub has its individual parameters (level, delay, EQ) adjusted so that their combined output yields the end result you're looking for (greatest seat to seat consistency or flattest response or whatever). With 3 adjustable parameters and multiple subs AND a choice of what to solve for (end result), the number of permutations can be huge. Which is why subwoofer optimization is done using a computer program, like MSO (Multi-Sub Optimizer) or SFM (Harman's proprietary SoundField Management) or one that is due out by Dirac hopefully later this year, which can run thousands of simulations to predict what the interaction will look like for every combination of parameters for each sub. Remember, it's not trying to improve each sub, it's only trying to affect the interaction. To go through that many combinations manually with a miniDSP would take years. You can always try MSO down the road, but in the mean time simply EQ the interaction of your subs (treat them like a single sub that happens to be in four pieces) and you'll have really good bass.
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post #27302 of 27503 Old 05-22-2019, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
... in the mean time simply EQ the interaction of your subs (treat them like a single sub that happens to be in four pieces) and you'll have really good bass.
Many thanks to your comments. I've been doing far too much over-complicating things rather than a simple approach and just enjoying the outcome.
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post #27303 of 27503 Old 05-22-2019, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
What you describe is an approach typically referred to as "subwoofer optimization", where each sub has its individual parameters (level, delay, EQ) adjusted so that their combined output yields the end result you're looking for (greatest seat to seat consistency or flattest response or whatever). With 3 adjustable parameters and multiple subs AND a choice of what to solve for (end result), the number of permutations can be huge. Which is why subwoofer optimization is done using a computer program, like MSO (Multi-Sub Optimizer) or SFM (Harman's proprietary SoundField Management) or one that is due out by Dirac hopefully later this year, which can run thousands of simulations to predict what the interaction will look like for every combination of parameters for each sub. Remember, it's not trying to improve each sub, it's only trying to affect the interaction. To go through that many combinations manually with a miniDSP would take years. You can always try MSO down the road, but in the mean time simply EQ the interaction of your subs (treat them like a single sub that happens to be in four pieces) and you'll have really good bass.

Yes. Benefits of MSO go beyond optimizing for each seat... it allows setting a different PEQ, delay, and gain for each sub, taking into account their interactions, to give a good response even if just for one seat.

It’s not that hard to do, but neither the software nor the tutorial are very intuitive. I managed to stumble through the tutorial and experiment enough to figure it out, and once you know how to use it, it’s not hard.

But as mentioned, the simpler way to get good but not best results is to let Audyssey set delays and do it’s thing, then measure all subs together with REW and create a PEQ filter on the MiniDSP inputs.


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post #27304 of 27503 Old 05-22-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
The strongest signals at most likely at 100% signal.
It depends on the content, most movie soundtracks do peak at close to 0dBFs though

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Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
Am I right to say that any boost at that frequency would clip the signal and cause distortion? Is that what you mean by overloading the signal?
Frequency is not so important, effect on waveform is important. If waveform is pushed above 0dBFS then yes it will clip and you are introducing distortion.

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If that's the case, any amount of boost would at least occasionally cause distortion, and you would never want to add any boost. But maybe I'm looking at it wrong
Not wrong but you are forgetting about gain structure (and the volume control) and the position of the dsp in the signal chain.
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post #27305 of 27503 Old 05-22-2019, 10:37 AM
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Not wrong but you are forgetting about gain structure (and the volume control) and the position of the dsp in the signal chain.

Can you expound on this? Paint a picture of what happens to the waveform when you adjust the volume, and when you adjust the gain on the amp, and when you adjust eq?


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post #27306 of 27503 Old 05-22-2019, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
Can you expound on this? Paint a picture of what happens to the waveform when you adjust the volume, and when you adjust the gain on the amp, and when you adjust eq?


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Gain just scales it (larger or smaller) by a certain amount. As for how DSP affects it, I suggest trying it for yourself. You can use https://beqdesigner.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ for this purpose as it shows the effect of filters on the waveform for some particular track.
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post #27307 of 27503 Old 05-23-2019, 05:45 PM
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I'm trying to do REW compression sweeps on my new speakers up to 105 dB to check for full reference capability, but I'm getting messages that I'm clipping input by the time I get in the 90-95dB range....pretty sure the AVR and speakers have plenty of headroom left as distortion is around 0.5% at this level but not sure how to run the sweeps higher. Or perhaps the actual SPL is much higher but I'm getting a falsely low reading? I've run sweeps with my subs to above 115 dB with no problems of the sort on windows. I just got my Mac setup for REW...the windows laptop is no longer functioning to compare. I know this isn't much information to go off of, but, any suggestions or ideas?
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post #27308 of 27503 Old 05-24-2019, 03:17 AM
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Question

hello, first time graph poster and rew newbie here, so please bear with me
attached distortion measurements and wonder what could be the reason of such spike (up to 4%) on the right channel between 2 and 3k?
any other problems identified on my graphs, do these look typical for measurements taken at MLP in non-treated room (pic also attached)?
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post #27309 of 27503 Old 05-24-2019, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vavan View Post
hello, first time graph poster and rew newbie here, so please bear with me
attached distortion measurements and wonder what could be the reason of such spike (up to 4%) on the right channel between 2 and 3k?
any other problems identified on my graphs, do these look typical for measurements taken at MLP in non-treated room (pic also attached)?
Hard to say what may be causing that. When you present distortion measurements in the future, please adjust the vertical scale so that it extends all the way to zero. Seeing the entire distortion measurement would be useful.
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post #27310 of 27503 Old 05-24-2019, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Hard to say what may be causing that. When you present distortion measurements in the future, please adjust the vertical scale so that it extends all the way to zero. Seeing the entire distortion measurement would be useful.
ouch. please see adjusted graphs
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post #27311 of 27503 Old 05-24-2019, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by vavan View Post
ouch. please see adjusted graphs

The vertical scale looks good now. Typically, we look at only THD and the 3rd harmonic, so turning off the other lines makes it a little less cluttered. Also, when you place the cursor on a part of the distortion curve that you are examining, the legend at the bottom will display the distortion value, which is useful for analysis. These tips are future graph postings--no need to re-display these measurements.

And as I mentioned earlier, the graphs themselves provide no clue as to what might be causing the peak in the right speaker measurement.
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post #27312 of 27503 Old 05-24-2019, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The vertical scale looks good now. Typically, we look at only THD and the 3rd harmonic, so turning off the other lines makes it a little less cluttered. Also, when you place the cursor on a part of the distortion curve that you are examining, the legend at the bottom will display the distortion value, which is useful for analysis. These tips are future graph postings--no need to re-display these measurements.



And as I mentioned earlier, the graphs themselves provide no clue as to what might be causing the peak in the right speaker measurement.
I believe it's not right speaker itself as when I swapped left and right I got similar graphs. Maybe some furniture resonance, I have no experience with that stuff

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post #27313 of 27503 Old 05-24-2019, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by vavan View Post
I believe it's not right speaker itself as when I swapped left and right I got similar graphs. Maybe some furniture resonance, I have no experience with that stuff

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Yes, experimenting with different speaker positions may give you some insight.
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post #27314 of 27503 Old 05-24-2019, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vavan View Post
hello, first time graph poster and rew newbie here, so please bear with me
attached distortion measurements and wonder what could be the reason of such spike (up to 4%) on the right channel between 2 and 3k?
any other problems identified on my graphs, do these look typical for measurements taken at MLP in non-treated room (pic also attached)?
Is your room correction pulling down an especially large peak or boosting a dip in that region? That can cause a spike in distortion.
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post #27315 of 27503 Old 05-24-2019, 11:03 PM
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Is your room correction pulling down an especially large peak or boosting a dip in that region? That can cause a spike in distortion.
Those measurements were taken without any correction engaged. But I suppose I should make it again as I might have been wrong thinking that distortion spike was in the right channel even before I swapped fr and fl. Found older graph with similar spike on the left so I'm afraid it might be something with the speaker (crossed at 2.8khz IIRC)

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post #27316 of 27503 Old 05-29-2019, 09:42 AM
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EDIT: Never-mind, found my answer 20 pages back.

I'm sure I'll have more questions later.

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post #27317 of 27503 Old 05-29-2019, 05:26 PM
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Trying to make sense of it all. Got a calibrated Umik1 and beginning to learn the ropes and take some measurements. Trying to get a set of measurements for the center channel and the subs and I am getting a funny looking impulse graph when measuring the subs only. The two graphs attached are the same measurement just at different scales. Third attachment is the REW measurement setting used.

To isolate the subs I am unplugging the center channel speaker wires from the back of the AVR (Denon X4400H). But during the measurement I can still faintly hear the higher frequencies being output but not sure from which speaker. I thinking this is why these impulse graphs look fuzzy? Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong?

I have a MiniDSP 2x4-HD in the signal chain between the AVR and the sub woofers but, I do not think this is the issue; as other measurements I have sent directly to output channel 4 do not contain this fuzziness.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Edit: for spelling
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post #27318 of 27503 Old 05-30-2019, 06:45 AM
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So, after about 4-5 hours of movies subs around and taking measurements I found a sweet spot for the MLP, graph looked great! I was so exited. Then I moved the mic over 12" to the left and right seats to take measurements if two people were sitting next to each other....and I wanted to throw the laptop out the window.

Below are the graphs. What are those horrendous dips when not at the MLP and what if anything can be done? Or do I just suck it up and keep moving subs around?

Note: Room is 10x13x8. MLP is 40" off of the back wall, centered from L to R.
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post #27319 of 27503 Old 05-30-2019, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shape of Grey View Post
So, after about 4-5 hours of movies subs around and taking measurements I found a sweet spot for the MLP, graph looked great! I was so exited. Then I moved the mic over 12" to the left and right seats to take measurements if two people were sitting next to each other....and I wanted to throw the laptop out the window.

Below are the graphs. What are those horrendous dips when not at the MLP and what if anything can be done? Or do I just suck it up and keep moving subs around?

Note: Room is 10x13x8. MLP is 40" off of the back wall, centered from L to R.
You can't get a perfect flat graph at each seat unless you add more subs to smooth response to more seating area. Just focus on the main seating where you will sit and that's all it matters. If you want other seats smoother then add more subs or learn MSO.

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post #27320 of 27503 Old 05-30-2019, 07:28 AM
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You can't get a perfect flat graph at each seat unless you add more subs to smooth response to more seating area. Just focus on the main seating where you will sit and that's all it matters. If you want other seats smoother then add more subs or learn MSO.
What is MSO?

Edit: I think I found it, multi sub optimizer referenced here? https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...optimizer.html
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post #27321 of 27503 Old 05-30-2019, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevnmin View Post
Reading what has been posted tells me my recent implementation of MiniDSP 2x4 in both my systems was incorrect. I was under the impression that I should measure and create individual PEQ filters for each sub individually on the output side of MiniDSP, then let Audyssey do its job with the combined signal coming from the input side of Mini. Not quite sure how I mis-interpreted, but certainly glad this topic came up to clear up the confusion.
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Whether the EQ is applied to an input that applies to all four outputs, or whether the same EQ is applied individually to each of four output channels, the result is the same. The important thing is that the EQ is derived using the combined signal of all four subs.
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
What you describe is an approach typically referred to as "subwoofer optimization", where each sub has its individual parameters (level, delay, EQ) adjusted so that their combined output yields the end result you're looking for (greatest seat to seat consistency or flattest response or whatever). ... You can always try MSO down the road, but in the mean time simply EQ the interaction of your subs (treat them like a single sub that happens to be in four pieces) and you'll have really good bass.
After my ill-achieved attempt at setting up 4 subs as noted above, I have since cleared all PEQ, re-level matched and did time alignment with front pair and rear pair. Then ran combined response. I was amazed at how much better, and that's without any PEQ applied at all. First graph shows combined subs pre/post Audyssey and second graph is center+subs with audyssey after cross over selection, distance tweak and minor level sub trim bump.

Thanks for the earlier posts on proper way for setting up multiple subs without MSO.
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post #27322 of 27503 Old 05-30-2019, 03:12 PM
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I was amazed at how much better, and that's without any PEQ applied at all.
Damn, Kevin, that is a mighty smooth response with excellent subwoofer/speaker blending (can't tell from the measurement where the crossover is).
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post #27323 of 27503 Old 05-30-2019, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Damn, Kevin, that is a mighty smooth response with excellent subwoofer/speaker blending (can't tell from the measurement where the crossover is).
Thanks, coming from you SanJay, I appreciate it.

Next step, figure out what, if any, house curve I need and then apply it to the outputs on the Mini. I've some of Wayne's stuff so looking forward to digging in a bit deeper.
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post #27324 of 27503 Old 05-30-2019, 03:42 PM
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I was amazed at how much better, and that's without any PEQ applied at all.
I agree with Sanjay, that shows very good results. Nice job!
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post #27325 of 27503 Old 05-30-2019, 05:07 PM
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I agree with Sanjay, that shows very good results. Nice job!
Thanks Jerry, countless replies from you has gone a long way. Thanks for always being there.

Kevin.
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post #27326 of 27503 Old 05-31-2019, 06:32 AM
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Got some time to mess around with subs this morning and wanted to do an alignment. When I added a delay to my rear sub (closest to MLP) it introduced a dip at ~58hz. What did I screw up? Because I was under the impression that time aligning subs supposed to improve the response, not make it worse....of course that is barring any user error on my part lol.

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post #27327 of 27503 Old 05-31-2019, 07:30 AM
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Got some time to mess around with subs this morning and wanted to do an alignment. When I added a delay to my rear sub (closest to MLP) it introduced a dip at ~58hz. What did I screw up? Because I was under the impression that time aligning subs supposed to improve the response, not make it worse....of course that is barring any user error on my part lol.

Visual aid attached below.
Hard to say. How did you determine the delay setting? I would adjust the rear sub delay for flattest response of both subs. Share your results.
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post #27328 of 27503 Old 05-31-2019, 08:17 AM
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Hard to say. How did you determine the delay setting? I would adjust the rear sub delay for flattest response of both subs. Share your results.
To get the delay I went off of your miniDSP guide. First I tried physical distance measurement and came up with 3.18ms (dif between subs and mlp/speed of sound)*1000. However when I added 3.18 to inuke dsp, the impulse was a good ways off. Then tried by taking impulse response measurements and just adjust delay until they were as synced as I could get them, which resulted in the final 2.21ms.

Both the 2.21ms and 3.18ms measured worse than no delay. 3.18ms had a 30-35db nosedive at 62hz.

I'll try again when I get home, very possible I jacked something up.

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post #27329 of 27503 Old 05-31-2019, 08:41 AM
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I was under the impression that time aligning subs supposed to improve the response, not make it worse....
More often that not, time aligning subs can make the response worse, at least in my experience. When subs are placed at opposite sides of a room for mode cancelling, they are naturally filling in each other's peaks & dips (irrespective of listener location) to even out the response. Delaying one of the subs for time alignment (based on listener location) can throw off this balance and make the mode cancelling less effective. Also, if you try subwoofer optimization programs, like MSO or SFM, you'll notice that the individual subwoofer delays that they calculate do not match time alignment delays.

With all this in mind, my default is to not start with individual subs time aligned. Worth playing with the delays of one of your two subs (like you already did) to see if the response improves. If it does, keep going in that direction until the response stops improving. If delays make the response worse, then leave both subs in their original state (no time alignment). No hard rule, just whichever gives better results. Once you've gotten the best results you can from the interaction of both subs, even if that means doing nothing, treat them both as a single subwoofer (that just happens to be in two pieces). You can now time align your "single sub" to your speakers.

Sanjay
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post #27330 of 27503 Old 05-31-2019, 08:55 AM
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More often that not, time aligning subs can make the response worse, at least in my experience. When subs are placed at opposite sides of a room for mode cancelling, they are naturally filling in each other's peaks & dips (irrespective of listener location) to even out the response. Delaying one of the subs for time alignment (based on listener location) can throw off this balance and make the mode cancelling less effective. Also, if you try subwoofer optimization programs, like MSO or SFM, you'll notice that the individual subwoofer delays that they calculate do not match time alignment delays.

With all this in mind, my default is to not start with individual subs time aligned. Worth playing with the delays of one of your two subs (like you already did) to see if the response improves. If it does, keep going in that direction until the response stops improving. If delays make the response worse, then leave both subs in their original state (no time alignment). No hard rule, just whichever gives better results. Once you've gotten the best results you can from the interaction of both subs, even if that means doing nothing, treat them both as a single subwoofer (that just happens to be in two pieces). You can now time align your "single sub" to your speakers.
Good to know! I had just recently started to mess with REW, so when things go outside the norm that I gathered from a guide, kinda sends me for a loop. As for MSO, that's in my future, but right now it's just another can of worms of a program I'd have to learn.

I figured I'll start with REW, get a decent grasp on what I'm doing or should be looking for, then incorporate MSO (and probably at least one more if not 2 more subs.. Oooph)
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