Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 914 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 4077Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #27391 of 27461 Old 06-11-2019, 08:30 PM
Member
 
kagtha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia
Posts: 190
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked: 99
So I upgraded from an old analog AVR to a budget Denon w MultEQ. And wow. I was way off. In just about every aspect of what I was "trying".

I officially give in. My brain does not work the same way as all of you amazing engineers with your HUGE mathematical brains.

I may be making it harder than it is, but I have struggled long enough.



I wish there was a laymen explanation of sound, how speakers actually work (1 kudo for me, I was able to use WinISD fluently), REW, & how REW helps in particular from Low to High. No offense but just about every "manual", tutorial, or help article goes on & on & on in amazing detail so guys like me end up being conditioned to skip around help manuals & forum posts trying to find answers in an endless cycle of failures.

I am afraid I am going to fry my newly built VBSS that took a gaggle of weekends to finish. I had no idea that a li'l ole thing like "sound" was so complicated. From phase, transfer functions, waterfalls, room acoustics, sound theory to something as simple as wrapping my head around how sound disturbs air particles in a room.

I am going to go back to what I am good at so I can get my self-esteem back. (Or at least interested enough to know it through & through.)

Carry on my sound and acoustic prodigies. I am going to get out while I still can.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	sound-for-dummies.jpg
Views:	58
Size:	11.9 KB
ID:	2578986  
GeoJustGeo likes this.

Bedroom Audio: Two Shallow Under Bed PA310-8 12's energized by an SPA250DSP Plate Amp. Two BST-1s. 75 Watt 7.1 Onkyo AVR with Five Martin Logan MLT-2 LCR & Surrounds.
Living Room Audio: One Behringer NX6000D flexing four PA460-8's in a contemporary VBSS credenza build, 100 Watt 5.1 Sony AVR zapping Three horizontal Elusive 1099s LCRs and Two Martin Logan MLT-2 Surrounds. Two BST-1 Bass Shakers charged by the MLT-2 Sub Amp.

Last edited by kagtha; 06-11-2019 at 08:36 PM.
kagtha is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #27392 of 27461 Old 06-12-2019, 02:10 AM
Advanced Member
 
Sam Ash's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 709
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I think the EQ is effective, and the flatness of the frequency response seems fairly typical. If you are looking for a “healthy” bass response, the response curve below 100Hz could be better. If you can only have one sub, then perhaps that’s the best you can do. There can be only so much boost.
Hi Jerry, I fine-tuned the EQ further and managed to marginally improve the response curve between 70Hz and 100Hz. I will try and see if I can do something about the peak at 60Hz.

The problem I have is that my PEQ facility only provides 3 bands below my 100Hz XO frequency. Another limitation is that it does not provide any bands between 200Hz and 1Khz.

How do you adjust for frequencies above the XO and do you apply them to the LCR channels equally ?

Sanjay, thank you for your input.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Sub Range 70-100Hz Improvement.jpg
Views:	25
Size:	115.2 KB
ID:	2579040  
Sam Ash is offline  
post #27393 of 27461 Old 06-12-2019, 02:19 AM
Advanced Member
 
Sam Ash's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 709
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
I think that's as good as it's going to get when working within your limitations. In fact, it's pretty good for a single sub and fixed placement.
Thanks Sanjay, I've improved the curve between 70-100Hz marginally, need to see if I can bring that 60Hz peak down a bit.

I'm wondering whether a MiniDSP 2x4 HD would give me more bands and greater flexibility than my in-built 10-band PEQ which has no bands between 200Hz and 1Khz.

This is psychological torture ! - ultimately, I need another sub. Do you have any useful content in terms of integrating 2 to 4 subs ?
Sam Ash is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #27394 of 27461 Old 06-12-2019, 04:05 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Apologies if this has been brought up before but if I wanted to measure measure my sub at multiple locations with the intent of finding the best spot to add a second one/determine if even worth it. How would I go about using 2 separate measurements to create 1 expected measurement if there were subs in each location, much as I would do after taking left and right main measurements and combining
rockluc is offline  
post #27395 of 27461 Old 06-12-2019, 05:48 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
artur9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: near philly
Posts: 2,313
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 980 Post(s)
Liked: 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
I will try and see if I can do something about the peak at 60Hz.
You should verify that the 60Hz peak isn't a bit of low level ground loop that the mic is peaking up that you may not be able to hear.

Maybe turn all the sound off (keeping everything on and connected) and do a measurement.
artur9 is offline  
post #27396 of 27461 Old 06-12-2019, 05:49 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
artur9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: near philly
Posts: 2,313
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 980 Post(s)
Liked: 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by kagtha View Post
So I upgraded from an old analog AVR to a budget Denon w MultEQ.
It's not as bad as all that. Just tell us what you're trying to achieve and we'll be glad to offer assistance.
sdurani likes this.
artur9 is offline  
post #27397 of 27461 Old 06-12-2019, 05:52 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
artur9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: near philly
Posts: 2,313
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 980 Post(s)
Liked: 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
ultimately, I need another sub. Do you have any useful content in terms of integrating 2 to 4 subs ?
If you're spaced constrained than multiple small subs work well (easily hidden/placed).

If you have the money something like the Swarm makes it very easy.
artur9 is offline  
post #27398 of 27461 Old 06-12-2019, 05:59 AM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 20,322
Mentioned: 374 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10892 Post(s)
Liked: 6487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
Thanks Sanjay, I've improved the curve between 70-100Hz marginally, need to see if I can bring that 60Hz peak down a bit.

I'm wondering whether a MiniDSP 2x4 HD would give me more bands and greater flexibility than my in-built 10-band PEQ which has no bands between 200Hz and 1Khz.

This is psychological torture ! - ultimately, I need another sub. Do you have any useful content in terms of integrating 2 to 4 subs ?
The guide linked in my sig provides suggestions on how to integrate multiple subs using the MiniDSP 2x4.
Sam Ash likes this.
AustinJerry is offline  
post #27399 of 27461 Old 06-12-2019, 06:15 AM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 20,322
Mentioned: 374 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10892 Post(s)
Liked: 6487
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockluc View Post
Apologies if this has been brought up before but if I wanted to measure measure my sub at multiple locations with the intent of finding the best spot to add a second one/determine if even worth it. How would I go about using 2 separate measurements to create 1 expected measurement if there were subs in each location, much as I would do after taking left and right main measurements and combining
You can use REW’s Trace Arithmetic function to mathematically add two measurements together. Click Controls, enter the two measurements in the Trace Arithmetic A and B boxes, select A+B, and click Generate.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Trace Arithmetic.PNG
Views:	24
Size:	20.6 KB
ID:	2579076  
AustinJerry is offline  
post #27400 of 27461 Old 06-12-2019, 08:10 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 27,461
Mentioned: 189 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6914 Post(s)
Liked: 5872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
Do you have any useful content in terms of integrating 2 to 4 subs ?
First thing to try is a tool that doesn't cost anything: placement. Experiment to find subwoofer locations where the interaction between all your subs results in the smoothest bass response, or at least the fewest/smallest dips (don't worry as much about peaks because they can be brought down with EQ). The posts following yours have good advice about running multi-sub simulations in REW and integrating a miniDSP 2x4 (Jerry's guide). You can also try MSO (multi-sub optimizer) for improved consistency from seat to seat (IF you care about more than one listening position). After everything is done, treat the whole thing (subs, amps, miniDSP, cables, etc) as a single subwoofer. This is the "subwoofer" you want to time align, level match and blend with your speakers.
Sam Ash and kagtha like this.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #27401 of 27461 Old 06-12-2019, 09:04 AM
Advanced Member
 
Sam Ash's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 709
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
You should verify that the 60Hz peak isn't a bit of low level ground loop that the mic is peaking up that you may not be able to hear.

Maybe turn all the sound off (keeping everything on and connected) and do a measurement.
Thanks Artur, I will certainly try that
Sam Ash is offline  
post #27402 of 27461 Old 06-12-2019, 09:16 AM
Advanced Member
 
Sam Ash's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 709
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
First thing to try is a tool that doesn't cost anything: placement. Experiment to find subwoofer locations where the interaction between all your subs results in the smoothest bass response, or at least the fewest/smallest dips (don't worry as much about peaks because they can be brought down with EQ). The posts following yours have good advice about running multi-sub simulations in REW and integrating a miniDSP 2x4 (Jerry's guide). You can also try MSO (multi-sub optimizer) for improved consistency from seat to seat (IF you care about more than one listening position). After everything is done, treat the whole thing (subs, amps, miniDSP, cables, etc) as a single subwoofer. This is the "subwoofer" you want to time align, level match and blend with your speakers.
Thanks Sanjay, much appreciated. My processor has two sub-out interfaces with exactly the same signal being provided to both. I presume settings like sub-levels and XO effect both interfaces equally. Any relative difference settings (Levels and phase) would have to be applied manually on the second sub. How would timing be applied to the second sub manually ?
Sam Ash is offline  
post #27403 of 27461 Old 06-12-2019, 09:18 AM
Advanced Member
 
Sam Ash's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 709
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The guide linked in my sig provides suggestions on how to integrate multiple subs using the MiniDSP 2x4.
Thanks Jerry, I will refer to your guide which has been very useful.
Sam Ash is offline  
post #27404 of 27461 Old 06-12-2019, 09:29 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 27,461
Mentioned: 189 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6914 Post(s)
Liked: 5872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
My processor has two sub-out interfaces with exactly the same signal being provided to both. I presume settings like sub-levels and XO effect both interfaces equally. Any relative difference settings (Levels and phase) would have to be applied manually on the second sub. How would timing be applied to the second sub manually ?
I would do level & delay differences between subs using an inexpensive external box, like the miniDSP 2x4, rather than in your receiver or on the plate amp of one of the subs. Once you've optimized the interaction of all your subs, connect the miniDSP to one of the subwoofer outputs on your receiver. If you've been able to minimize the dips, then the room correction in your receiver should be able to bring down the peaks.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #27405 of 27461 Old 06-12-2019, 09:30 AM
Advanced Member
 
Sam Ash's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 709
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You can use REW’s Trace Arithmetic function to mathematically add two measurements together. Click Controls, enter the two measurements in the Trace Arithmetic A and B boxes, select A+B, and click Generate.
This is something that I have been wondering about - is this the same or close to a manual spacial averaging procedure ?
Sam Ash is offline  
post #27406 of 27461 Old 06-12-2019, 09:33 AM
Advanced Member
 
Sam Ash's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 709
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
I would do level & delay differences between subs using an inexpensive external box, like the miniDSP 2x4, rather than in your receiver or on the plate amp of one of the subs. Once you've optimized the interaction of all your subs, connect the miniDSP to one of the subwoofer outputs on your receiver. If you've been able to minimize the dips, then the room correction in your receiver should be able to bring down the peaks.
That makes sense Sanjay. I don't have a room correction system in my pre-amp but the 10 band PEQ helps.
Sam Ash is offline  
post #27407 of 27461 Old 06-12-2019, 11:26 AM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 20,322
Mentioned: 374 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10892 Post(s)
Liked: 6487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
This is something that I have been wondering about - is this the same or close to a manual spacial averaging procedure ?
I am not familiar with this procedure. But since a REW measurement is a mathematical representation of a sound wave, performing a mathematical addition of two sound waves is identical to the result as if you had measured the two sound sources together. Try it as an experiment--it works!
AustinJerry is offline  
post #27408 of 27461 Old 06-12-2019, 03:09 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 943
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 815 Post(s)
Liked: 769
Is there where I could get help on making sure my front stage (mainly speakers) is running properly? I mainly watch movies. What graphs do I need to provide to start?
GeoJustGeo is online now  
post #27409 of 27461 Old 06-13-2019, 12:44 AM
Advanced Member
 
Sam Ash's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 709
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I am not familiar with this procedure. But since a REW measurement is a mathematical representation of a sound wave, performing a mathematical addition of two sound waves is identical to the result as if you had measured the two sound sources together. Try it as an experiment--it works!
That is quite cool, I will certainly experiment with it.

How many bands does the PEQ software in the miniDSP provide and does it cover the full range spectrum effectively ? - I am hoping it is much higher in resolution in terms of bands, gain-range and Q-range.
Sam Ash is offline  
post #27410 of 27461 Old 06-13-2019, 05:43 AM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 20,322
Mentioned: 374 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10892 Post(s)
Liked: 6487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
That is quite cool, I will certainly experiment with it.

How many bands does the PEQ software in the miniDSP provide and does it cover the full range spectrum effectively ? - I am hoping it is much higher in resolution in terms of bands, gain-range and Q-range.
I don’t know the specifics, but you might try the documentation on the MiniDSP site, or ask the same question in that site’s forum. I use my 2x4 primarily to consolidate signals and add delays. I have not used it’s PEQ capabilities.
AustinJerry is offline  
post #27411 of 27461 Old 06-13-2019, 10:07 AM
Advanced Member
 
Sam Ash's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 709
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I don’t know the specifics, but you might try the documentation on the MiniDSP site, or ask the same question in that site’s forum. I use my 2x4 primarily to consolidate signals and add delays. I have not used it’s PEQ capabilities.
The balanced 2x4 would have been ideal for me but I read somewhere that the delay range is limited compared to the 2x4 HD as is the voltage requirement needed to run some amps - if I remember correctly.
giomania likes this.
Sam Ash is offline  
post #27412 of 27461 Old 06-13-2019, 11:27 AM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 20,322
Mentioned: 374 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10892 Post(s)
Liked: 6487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
The balanced 2x4 would have been ideal for me but I read somewhere that the delay range is limited compared to the 2x4 HD as is the voltage requirement needed to run some amps - if I remember correctly.
I don’t recall any significant differences with the voltages. The balanced 2x4 is, however, limited to a maximum of 7.5ms delay. You should calculate the delays you need in your setup to make sure 7.5ms is adequate.
giomania likes this.
AustinJerry is offline  
post #27413 of 27461 Old 06-13-2019, 12:11 PM
QuadMersed in bass!
 
giomania's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 3,772
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 561 Post(s)
Liked: 403
It would be nice if they actually made one with balanced inputs instead of those phoenix connectors


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
giomania is offline  
post #27414 of 27461 Old 06-13-2019, 12:15 PM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 20,322
Mentioned: 374 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10892 Post(s)
Liked: 6487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
The balanced 2x4 would have been ideal for me but I read somewhere that the delay range is limited compared to the 2x4 HD as is the voltage requirement needed to run some amps - if I remember correctly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I don’t recall any significant differences with the voltages. The balanced 2x4 is, however, limited to a maximum of 7.5ms delay. You should calculate the delays you need in your setup to make sure 7.5ms is adequate.
I checked the specs on the MiniDSP web site, and the 2x4HD has a max 2v unbalanced output, while the 2x4 balanced has a switchable 2v or 4v output. So, if 2v is not enough, then the 2x4HD is not for you.
AustinJerry is offline  
post #27415 of 27461 Old 06-13-2019, 12:20 PM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 20,322
Mentioned: 374 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10892 Post(s)
Liked: 6487
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
It would be nice if they actually made one with balanced inputs instead of those phoenix connectors


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
XLR outputs would take considerably more space than the Phoenix block, so the case would need to be larger. I find nothing wrong with balanced Phoenix connections, which I am using on both the balanced 2x4 and the 88A. Once you get the hang of how to prep the cables and make the connections, the Phoenix connections are tidy and take up a lot less space. And since you have to cut the ends off of a standard XLR cable, you can make the cables exactly the right length, which is nice.
AustinJerry is offline  
post #27416 of 27461 Old 06-13-2019, 01:38 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 943
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 815 Post(s)
Liked: 769
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
Is there where I could get help on making sure my front stage (mainly speakers) is running properly? I mainly watch movies. What graphs do I need to provide to start?
Or am I in the wrong REW thread?
GeoJustGeo is online now  
post #27417 of 27461 Old 06-13-2019, 01:42 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 83
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
Or am I in the wrong REW thread?
read through the REW guide in the link at the bottom of AustinJerry's post directly above yours is a great place to start.
GeoJustGeo likes this.
Keith Ferguson is offline  
post #27418 of 27461 Old 06-13-2019, 01:53 PM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 20,322
Mentioned: 374 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10892 Post(s)
Liked: 6487
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
Or am I in the wrong REW thread?
No, you are in the right thread. But your request is so open-ended, a meaningful response would be difficult.

Common sense would suggest you take basic REW measurements of your left, center and right speakers, including the contribution of your subs (if you have subs). Measure a full 15-20,000Hz, take screen captures of the results, and post them here. In your post, include some background about your setup, including what types of equipment you have, the dimensions of your listening room, and pictures of the listening room showing speaker layout. Tell us a bit about your listening habits (movies or music), and your current impression of how you think things sound (what you like, and what you think needs improvement).

And any serious participant in this thread should have at least browsed the REW guide (linked in my sig), made an effort to take meaningful measurements, and presented the results in a meaningful format.

Is that a better answer for you?
sdurani, giomania, Alan P and 2 others like this.
AustinJerry is offline  
post #27419 of 27461 Old 06-13-2019, 05:06 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 943
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 815 Post(s)
Liked: 769
Actually yes that was helpful. But I have a question. I read in your guide that 40db above floor noise is recommended, which would be about 90db for me as well. I checked using the Spectogram and to hit 90 with my speakers only I have to be at -11 mv. My subs run 12db hotter than my mains so it should put the Spectogram a lot hotter than 90db. What mv do you recommend I use?
GeoJustGeo is online now  
post #27420 of 27461 Old 06-13-2019, 05:13 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 943
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 815 Post(s)
Liked: 769
And should I do L,C,R with AND without subs, or just with?
GeoJustGeo is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat

Tags
Dayton , Dayton Audio , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off