Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 923 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #27661 of 28197 Old 08-16-2019, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
Okay, I took the plunge and purchased a Mini DSP HD and it arrived today.

I was messing around with REW a few months ago, got a bunch of good help from the users on here, but I was unable to eliminate a certain dip, and grew frustrated so I quit lol.

Anyways - now I am back and looking forward to EQ'ing my FR, if that makes sense. If memory serves me right I have a slight dip around 20hz and a slight dip around 80hz w/ my FV25hp.

Anyways - once I've found the best FR for my sub, whats the next best step w/ my mini to take to correct, or heighten certain frequencies
If your crossover is at 80hz, that dip may be alleviated with the Sub Distance Tweak.

After EQ'ing flat, most will add a house curve (see this link) and some get into BEQ (link in my sig).
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post #27662 of 28197 Old 08-16-2019, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
If your crossover is at 80hz, that dip may be alleviated with the Sub Distance Tweak.

After EQ'ing flat, most will add a house curve (see this link) and some get into BEQ (link in my sig).
Oh yeah baby, the BEQ is why I picked up the mini in the first place

And running my crossover @ 90 now, but I believe it was still there @ 90 before - either way I'll take some new measurements tonight and report back.

Thank you very very much for the house curve link I appreciate it! And also, I've done some reading and will continue to do more, but what is the primary benefit and/or reason of adding a house curve? I will be reading the post you linked in it's entirety in a bit - just can't take it all in at the present moment, but perhaps I should educate meself first and then ask questions




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post #27663 of 28197 Old 08-16-2019, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
Oh yeah baby, the BEQ is why I picked up the mini in the first place

And running my crossover @ 90 now, but I believe it was still there @ 90 before - either way I'll take some new measurements tonight and report back.

Thank you very very much for the house curve link I appreciate it! And also, I've done some reading and will continue to do more, but what is the primary benefit and/or reason of adding a house curve? I will be reading the post you linked in it's entirety in a bit - just can't take it all in at the present moment, but perhaps I should educate meself first and then ask questions
Not a problem!

The need for a house curve (a rising response, typically starting around 100hz and finishing the rise around 30-20hz) is usually because the human ear is less sensitive to the lower frequencies so they need to be boosted in order for us to perceive them as being the same loudness as the higher frequencies. Google Fletcher-Munson if you want to learn more...or, click on the Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences in my sig.

Also because...well, MOAR BASS is always better!*


*Not always.
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post #27664 of 28197 Old 08-17-2019, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
...but I was unable to eliminate a certain dip, and grew frustrated so I quit lol.
...that dip may be alleviated with the Sub Distance Tweak.
I am definitely a miniDSP noob myself, but after reading many of the forums and papers on the topic, I am under the impression that dips can hardly be corrected by EQ. That they require room treatment.
Did I miss something important? What kinds of dips can be EQed?
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post #27665 of 28197 Old 08-17-2019, 10:36 AM
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What kinds of dips can be EQed?
Dips caused by the room cannot be. They are cancellations from reflections so if you put more power into them nothing happens but a waste of power.

If the speaker has the dip then maybe, like they do with headphones or Devialet's SAM
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post #27666 of 28197 Old 08-17-2019, 11:10 AM
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I am under the impression that dips can hardly be corrected by EQ. That they require room treatment.
Or moving the subwoofer(s). Or moving speakers. Or moving the seating location. Any of those is likely more effective (certainly more cost effective) than trying to address a dip using room treatment.
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What kinds of dips can be EQed?
Shallow ones (less than 6dB), especially in the bass range. Just have to make sure you're not applying enough boost to blow up your amplifier.
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post #27667 of 28197 Old 08-17-2019, 01:18 PM
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Took the mic out and got busy with REW last night, watched a few videos on the MiniDSP and installed the software but haven't even hooked it up yet - plan to sometime today.

But this is my FR @ -13db w/ Audyssey on Reference. Could these dips be corrected w/ the Mini or am I stuck like chuck? The sub basically has to stay where it's at, I *could* potentially put it directly behind the couch but I'm afraid I'd have to turn it down a good amount or it'd become too powerful?
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post #27668 of 28197 Old 08-17-2019, 11:02 PM
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Anndd, I got funky, and moved the sub behind my MLP. This is what I got - so I "fixed" the dip around 60/70, but added a huge one around 20/30.

I do love the TR, and the feeling behind my seat, tested a few movies, A Quiet Place, Alita, all sound pretty cool after running Audyssey, though the dip!

But this is why they talk about multiple subs, hmm..
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post #27669 of 28197 Old 08-18-2019, 12:57 AM
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Or moving the subwoofer(s). Or moving speakers. Or moving the seating location. Any of those is likely more effective (certainly more cost effective) than trying to address a dip using room treatment.
I have tried all that, and I am now sure that my 100Hz dip of 20dB is a room mode.
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Shallow ones (less than 6dB), especially in the bass range. Just have to make sure you're not applying enough boost to blow up your amplifier.
Copy that.
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post #27670 of 28197 Old 08-18-2019, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
Took the mic out and got busy with REW last night, watched a few videos on the MiniDSP and installed the software but haven't even hooked it up yet - plan to sometime today.

But this is my FR @ -13db w/ Audyssey on Reference.

What was measured? Sub only, Center or L+R with bassmanagement?

Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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Originally Posted by priitv8 View Post
I have tried all that, and I am now sure that my 100Hz dip of 20dB is a room mode.

To be sure you could verify that with REW's room simulator. Also great to analyze what could be improved by changing listening and speaker positions.

Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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post #27672 of 28197 Old 08-18-2019, 09:37 AM
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I have tried all that, and I am now sure that my 100Hz dip of 20dB is a room mode.
Something doesn't add up. Room modes manifest themselves as peaks & nulls at specific locations in the room. IF you've tried moving your subs, speakers, listening position and noticed no change in the 100Hz dip, then it can't be a room mode. If it was a room mode, then changing the location of the seating and/or the bass source would change the 100Hz dip, making it better or worse.
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post #27673 of 28197 Old 08-18-2019, 10:24 PM
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To be sure you could verify that with REW's room simulator. Also great to analyze what could be improved by changing listening and speaker positions.
That is excellent advice! Will try this out. Will it also simulate the effect of early reflections?
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Something doesn't add up. Room modes manifest themselves as peaks & nulls at specific locations in the room. IF you've tried moving your subs, speakers, listening position and noticed no change in the 100Hz dip, then it can't be a room mode. If it was a room mode, then changing the location of the seating and/or the bass source would change the 100Hz dip, making it better or worse.
Oh, sorry. Indeed, moving the MLP does have positive effect! But that is not an option for me, the room layout must stay.

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post #27674 of 28197 Old 08-19-2019, 04:45 AM
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That is excellent advice! Will try this out. Will it also simulate the effect of early reflections?
You can set absorption factors. But I believe they are simply used to simulate energy decay (SPL), not time domain effects like ERs.


But REW offers an excellent tool to analyze the measured amount of ERs on your MLP: Impulse.

Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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Alright, took a bunch of measurements yesterday, for the first time. This is in my living room, my main listening area, with a 2ch Revel F206 setup with a Yamaha A2070 receiver. First measurement was in Through mode, or No EQ or DSP enabled, second was after YPAO measurements. Measurements were taken at my primary listening position with a UMIK-1 (on the couch at ear level, centered between both speakers, using a boom mic stand). It flattened out the bass response pretty well, so pretty happy with the results.

But there are two large dips around 100hz. I'm unable to change the positioning of the speakers (right speaker is in a corner, left speaker is more open) in this living room. Could bass treatments, such as bass traps, potentially solve those dips?
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What was measured? Sub only, Center or L+R with bassmanagement?
Hey, sorry for the late reply and yes it was just the center (output 3).

After watching a few movies and films, I dig the bass in the back of my couch, but it just makes it painfully obvious that I need more than one sub.

But, I'll still mess with what I have for the time being.




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post #27677 of 28197 Old 08-19-2019, 10:26 AM
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Hey, sorry for the late reply and yes it was just the center (output 3).

If that is the center with bassmanagement: at which f is the crossover setting? If it's set at 60 Hz, the dip could be because of a too low xover.

Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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If that is the center with bassmanagement: at which f is the crossover setting? If it's set at 60 Hz, the dip could be because of a too low xover.
What do you mean when you say "with bassmanagement" ? Audyssey is on and on reference if that's what you mean.

And the crossover for the C is set at 80, the fronts at 90, and the other speakers at 100hz




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post #27679 of 28197 Old 08-19-2019, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by priitv8 View Post
What kinds of dips can be EQed?

Dips can be EQ'd as long as they aren't nulls. It's easy to tell a null - after EQ you'll see no improvement. In that event, remove the filter - no since losing headroom if it's benefiting you nothing.

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post #27680 of 28197 Old 08-19-2019, 12:16 PM
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But there are two large dips around 100hz. I'm unable to change the positioning of the speakers (right speaker is in a corner, left speaker is more open) in this living room. Could bass treatments, such as bass traps, potentially solve those dips?
It takes lots of bass traps to get a measurable improvement in a room, more than most people are willing to put up with.

The good news is, the dips are pretty narrow and are probably inaudible. For example, it’s not commonly known that the typical bass guitar speaker cabinet falls like a brick below 100 Hz, if not higher. Yet, they easily reproduce notes from the open E and B strings of the bass guitar (40 Hz and 35 Hz respectively). This is because there is enough information from harmonics and overtones to “fill in the blanks,” as it were. So you won’t be missing much, if anything.

I find it curious that the dip just south of 100 Hz appeared after equalization. If the receiver allows you to manually adjust the YPAO settings, you might try that.

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post #27681 of 28197 Old 08-19-2019, 02:08 PM
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It takes lots of bass traps to get a measurable improvement in a room, more than most people are willing to put up with.

The good news is, the dips are pretty narrow and are probably inaudible. For example, it’s not commonly known that the typical bass guitar speaker cabinet falls like a brick below 100 Hz, if not higher. Yet, they easily reproduce notes from the open E and B strings of the bass guitar (40 Hz and 35 Hz respectively). This is because there is enough information from harmonics and overtones to “fill in the blanks,” as it were. So you won’t be missing much, if anything.

I find it curious that the dip just south of 100 Hz appeared after equalization. If the receiver allows you to manually adjust the YPAO settings, you might try that.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Thanks, yeah I can do a Manual PEQ on the Yamaha, and there should be a frequency setting at 99.2hz if I remember correctly, but I'll need to see if it's already in use. In Manual PEQ, there are only 4 filters (out of 7 total) that can be used below 500hz. It's really the right speaker that's the culprit. I attached graphs of each separate speaker.

For the right speaker the dip is right around 90hz, and the Yamaha Manual PEQ has settings at 78hz and 99hz, but nothing in between. So it's really hard to address that specific dip with EQ without screwing up other frequencies, which is a bummer.
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What do you mean when you say "with bassmanagement" ?
If the speakers are set to "small" and the bass is managed by the sub.



Quote:
And the crossover for the C is set at 80, the fronts at 90, and the other speakers at 100hz

So the measurement shows the sub with center @80 Hz?

Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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post #27683 of 28197 Old 08-20-2019, 11:11 AM
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If the speakers are set to "small" and the bass is managed by the sub.






So the measurement shows the sub with center @80 Hz?
Thank you for claryfying

Yes, the speakers are set to small, and the bass is being managed by the sub.

And yes, the measurement shows the sub w/ center @ 80hz. Tonight I will take it w/ just the sub - which should be output 4, correct?

Watched a few movies over the past few days, and while I love the feeling of the bass in my back/chest area as the sub is RIGHT behind the couch, I feel it neuters some of the bass in the room, and it's not as enveloping, if that makes sense.

But - since I dig the front speakers being wider now that I'm able to put them out a bit farther from the TV (now that the sub isn't in the way), I enjoy the seperation a lot more.

So, time to just stack dough and get a few more subs..

I *may* have one more location I can put this beast in my room...best way to use the room simulator?




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And yes, the measurement shows the sub w/ center @ 80hz. Tonight I will take it w/ just the sub - which should be output 4, correct?

It's great you measured the bassmanaged center. Because that's how you listen I guess Therefore that combined response is more important than the sub-only response.


If you look at the graph, you see a dip at 60 Hz, while the 80 Hz are too loud. I see a slight chance that the dip at 60 Hz could be the result of a timing problem (in phase at 80 Hz adding up, while out of phase at 60 Hz cancelling out because of a not optimal sub timing).


To make sure that you don't overlook a solution, you should measure the bassmanaged center again, and change the subwoofer distance slightly in the settings (a change of +1/0/-1 meters to the measured distance should be sufficient). With some luck you could see a reduction of the dip at 60 Hz and maybe even a reduction of the 80 Hz boost with a slightly changed distance.

Good luck.

Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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post #27685 of 28197 Old 08-20-2019, 01:58 PM
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I *may* have one more location I can put this beast in my room...best way to use the room simulator?
The REW room sim is a great inspirational and helpful tool, and should always be consulted, but real world measurements can differ quite a bit. Such a simple sim can't do wonders. For example the sim is giving the same results, no matter the sub's orientation. But in reality the differences can be dramatic, if the sub is turned 90° and/or if the room differs from the theoretical dimensions.
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Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.

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I *may* have one more location I can put this beast in my room...best way to use the room simulator?
Positioning is always the best approach to improving bass response. But a second sub always works wonders. With that monster sub you have, adding a second one may not leave any room for you!
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I've been playing with REW trying to integrate two dissimilar subs (without much success...). Looks like my SVS sub response is pretty decent, and maybe a bit better with Audyssey implemented. In another forum, AlanP suggested the Sub Distance Tweak to reduce the dip at 89 Hz. My speakers are crossed at 80Hz. I was thinking there might be a "quick and dirty" REW approach to the tweak: have REW generate an 89 Hz sine wave, put the UMIC-1 into mic stand, then maintain height and move the stand both forward and backward and monitor SPL to see if SPL raises (or decreases). If I get an appropriate increase, I could measure the distance, then enter that distance into the sub distance field in my AVR and recheck. Would this work? If not, why not?

Scans attached

Thanks for any input!
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Denon AVR-X3400H, Chane A5.4 LR, Chane A2.4 center, Polk RC85i in-wall side-surround, NHT Super One rear surround, SVS PB-12 NSD, HSU-VFT-1, LG OLED 55B6A
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post #27688 of 28197 Old 08-20-2019, 03:59 PM
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^^^

It's easier than that.

  • Measure CC+subs (REW HDMI CH3)
  • Add to the sub distance setting (both subs equally if using an AVR with dual sub calibration) in 1' increments (on some AVRs you must make sure to back out of the distance setting menu before the new setting will take effect)
  • Re-measure
  • Repeat until you get the smoothest transition over the crossover
  • You can repeat the process with the L or R+sub, but will usually have to compromise the CC+subs to get them all fairly smooth (if you are primarily movies, balance the compromise in favor of CC+sub, if music the L/R+sub)
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post #27689 of 28197 Old 08-20-2019, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
^^^

It's easier than that.

  • Measure CC+subs (REW HDMI CH3)
  • Add to the sub distance setting (both subs equally if using an AVR with dual sub calibration) in 1' increments (on some AVRs you must make sure to back out of the distance setting menu before the new setting will take effect)
  • Re-measure
  • Repeat until you get the smoothest transition over the crossover
  • You can repeat the process with the L or R+sub, but will usually have to compromise the CC+subs to get them all fairly smooth (if you are primarily movies, balance the compromise in favor of CC+sub, if music the L/R+sub)
Backing out of the AVR settings, then back in, change distance, and doing the measurement was why I thought running REW at 89 Hz might be a quicker test of if the Sub tweak would even work.

Thanks for all the input - again. I'm gonna eventually figure this out!

Denon AVR-X3400H, Chane A5.4 LR, Chane A2.4 center, Polk RC85i in-wall side-surround, NHT Super One rear surround, SVS PB-12 NSD, HSU-VFT-1, LG OLED 55B6A
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post #27690 of 28197 Old 08-20-2019, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sakete View Post
Thanks, yeah I can do a Manual PEQ on the Yamaha, and there should be a frequency setting at 99.2hz if I remember correctly, but I'll need to see if it's already in use. In Manual PEQ, there are only 4 filters (out of 7 total) that can be used below 500hz. It's really the right speaker that's the culprit. I attached graphs of each separate speaker.

For the right speaker the dip is right around 90hz, and the Yamaha Manual PEQ has settings at 78hz and 99hz, but nothing in between. So it's really hard to address that specific dip with EQ without screwing up other frequencies, which is a bummer.
It's because of the distance from your right speaker to the walls, your left is better because it's open to the left. Like the other poster said, it's likely not audible and if you have subs they will help fill in that gap as well. Also, if you're only measuring in 1 location, you'll get better results by doing a "spatial average" of at least 3 locations around your listening position, it's much more representative of what we actually hear than an omni-directional mic in a single location. Those measurements look pretty good, especially considering how crammed your speakers have to be, I wouldn't worry about it too much.
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