Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 925 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #27721 of 28132 Old 08-25-2019, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Howard-Canning View Post
I've recently finished setting up my new dedicated home theater room in my new house. It's only a small room (11.5x10.5 listening area) but it works really well.


Yesterday I sat down with my laptop, UMIK-1, REW and MiniDSP in order to get the sub nicely dialled in, but to my surprise this is what I saw when I ran my initial sweeps:





"That can't be right", I thought. I double checked everything and ran many sweeps at many different volume levels. All the same.


In my previous rooms it's been all over the place and I've had to have a few correction points in the MiniDSP, but with a simple high-Q dip at around 52Hz, this is what I achieved:







Have I won the low-frequency room acoustics lottery?
The response above 60Hz is unimpressive. I suspect this is a sub-only measurement, correct? Are you measuring the sub using HDMI4? Or using HDMI3 with center disconnected? If the latter, then the crossover may affect the roll-off.

Regardless, the overall bass response is determined by the contributions of both subs and mains. I recommend running another measurement with subs+Center, 15-300Hz, in order to see how well the center fills in the response above 60Hz.
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post #27722 of 28132 Old 08-25-2019, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The response above 60Hz is unimpressive. I suspect this is a sub-only measurement, correct? Are you measuring the sub using HDMI4? Or using HDMI3 with center disconnected? If the latter, then the crossover may affect the roll-off.

Regardless, the overall bass response is determined by the contributions of both subs and mains. I recommend running another measurement with subs+Center, 15-300Hz, in order to see how well the center fills in the response above 60Hz.
Yes, I was only interested in the sub frequencies. I would imagine it dips where the 80Hz crossover comes into effect. I need to tweak the centre's crossover settings to integrate it a bit more for sure. I was just surprised how flat the sub's response was.



Not quite sure why the HDMI input has anything to do with it.

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post #27723 of 28132 Old 08-25-2019, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Howard-Canning View Post
Yes, I was only interested in the sub frequencies. I would imagine it dips where the 80Hz crossover comes into effect. I need to tweak the centre's crossover settings to integrate it a bit more for sure. I was just surprised how flat the sub's response was.



Not quite sure why the HDMI input has anything to do with it.
The response below 60Hz is indeed quite flat. But the 60-120Hz range is critical to the overall quality of the bass, so it would be interesting to see how your setup is performing in this range.

Most of us using REW in this thread are connecting our laptops to the AVR using HDMI. How are you generating the REW sweeps?
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post #27724 of 28132 Old 08-25-2019, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The response below 60Hz is indeed quite flat. But the 60-120Hz range is critical to the overall quality of the bass, so it would be interesting to see how your setup is performing in this range.

Most of us using REW in this thread are connecting our laptops to the AVR using HDMI. How are you generating the REW sweeps?
That's exactly how I'm connecting, indeed. I just got confused when you mentioned HDMI3 vs HDMI4!


Will do some more sweeps and see how it's performing overall with a wider range.

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post #27725 of 28132 Old 08-25-2019, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Howard-Canning View Post
That's exactly how I'm connecting, indeed. I just got confused when you mentioned HDMI3 vs HDMI4!


Will do some more sweeps and see how it's performing overall with a wider range.
An REW sweep to HDMI3 will output to the center channel. Assuming your mains are set to "Small" with crossovers, the HDMI3 measurement will include both the subs and the center, which will show us if the center is filling in the frequencies above 60Hz.

An REW sweep to HDMI4 goes only to the LFE channel, and will measure the subs without the mains.

This is all explained in detail in the REW Guide linked in my sig.
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post #27726 of 28132 Old 08-25-2019, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
An REW sweep to HDMI3 will output to the center channel. Assuming your mains are set to "Small" with crossovers, the HDMI3 measurement will include both the subs and the center, which will show us if the center is filling in the frequencies above 60Hz.

An REW sweep to HDMI4 goes only to the LFE channel, and will measure the subs without the mains.

This is all explained in detail in the REW Guide linked in my sig.
I'm sorry, I don't understand. Why would HDMI4 behave any differently to HDMI3 on my receiver?

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post #27727 of 28132 Old 08-25-2019, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Howard-Canning View Post
I'm sorry, I don't understand. Why would HDMI4 behave any differently to HDMI3 on my receiver?
No disrespect, but you seem to have a lack of understanding of how REW sends signals to your system. An HDMI connection is a 7.1 channel audio connection. In REW's terminology, HDMI1 means the left channel, HDMI2 the right channel, HDMI3 the center channel, etc. The HDMI interface is enabled using the ASIO drivers. An example of this can be found on page 34 of the REW Guide linked in my sig. If you do not understand how REW and HDMI work, you would be well-served by reading the guide.
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post #27728 of 28132 Old 08-25-2019, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Howard-Canning View Post
I'm sorry, I don't understand. Why would HDMI4 behave any differently to HDMI3 on my receiver?
Are you perhaps talking about different things? Jerry is talking about channel 3 of the HDMI connection (Centre) and channel 4 of the HDMI connection (LFE). From your wording I wonder if you may be talking about different HMDI input connectors.
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post #27729 of 28132 Old 08-25-2019, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
No disrespect, but you seem to have a lack of understanding of how REW sends signals to your system. An HDMI connection is a 7.1 channel audio connection. In REW's terminology, HDMI1 means the left channel, HDMI2 the right channel, HDMI3 the center channel, etc. The HDMI interface is enabled using the ASIO drivers. An example of this can be found on page 34 of the REW Guide linked in my sig. If you do not understand how REW and HDMI work, you would be well-served by reading the guide.
Right, okay. I've never heard to it referred to in that way, hence my confusion and assumption that the inputs were being referred to!



Anyway, I haven't strayed from the default Java audio drivers in REW my laptop, so I guess the default through the HDMI connection should be a 2 channel (stereo) PCM signal. In the case of an LFE sweep, this will be diverted by the receiver's bass management to the subwoofer. It doesn't matter whether this is a 2.0 PCM signal or a 5.1 LPCM signal sending the sweep to the centre, or one of the rear channels. The end result would be the same. Of course, if you're talking about measuring a speaker's full range response, that's when it becomes relevant.


Since the receiver is upmixing the PCM signal to Dolby Surround, any audio above the sub's crossover frequency will go to the centre channel.


I will have a play with REW's HDMI output settings, since it'll certainly be interesting to see how well the other speakers integrate. But I can't see it making any difference to my LFE sweep!

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post #27730 of 28132 Old 08-25-2019, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Thanx for that. Original placement seems to worsen the null in the high 50s while quarter placement does that between 70 and 80 Hz. One solution would be to minimize the dips in the high 50s and cross over to your speakers at 60Hz, IF your speakers go that low. How wide is your room at the front wall? Is it the same width at the seating location?
@sdurani I had the level a bit low and didn't notice, but my place is so quiet and the measurements were consistent so I think it's okay, but looks like 80Hz is in fact the place to crossover, 60Hz things look a little worse. That's really strange because with the subs in that 1/4 placement, the response there looked better. The S-150s are supposed to be good down to 80Hz or so, so it's strange that we'd see a dip there with the 60Hz crossover after learning that the subs were filling that area better. I'm not exactly sure how to be looking at those measurements also, should I be averaging the LCRs?

I took a screencap of my settings for one of the runs too just in case you saw something set wrong.


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Right, okay. I've never heard to it referred to in that way, hence my confusion and assumption that the inputs were being referred to!
Don't worry my dude, that confused me also.
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post #27731 of 28132 Old 08-25-2019, 09:54 AM
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I took a screencap of my settings for one of the runs too just in case you saw something set wrong.
Looking at your settings you do not need to start sweeps at 5hz. 15hz is fine.
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post #27732 of 28132 Old 08-25-2019, 10:10 AM
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Looking at your settings you do not need to start sweeps at 5hz. 15hz is fine.
Cheers m8, I'll do that next time.
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post #27733 of 28132 Old 08-25-2019, 03:14 PM
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I took a screencap of my settings for one of the runs too just in case you saw something set wrong.
You're not using a timing reference:



Tough to align sub and mains without it.
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post #27734 of 28132 Old 08-25-2019, 03:34 PM
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That's really strange because with the subs in that 1/4 placement, the response there looked better.
One last thing to try if you're willing: subs in the front corners of the room. You'll probably end up with a peak at the midpoint of room width (where your main listening position is), but that can be brought down with EQ. However, it might help minimize some of the nulls. Worth a try, since you're doing measurements anyway.
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I'm not exactly sure how to be looking at those measurements also, should I be averaging the LCRs?
No.
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post #27735 of 28132 Old 08-25-2019, 06:31 PM
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You're not using a timing reference:

Tough to align sub and mains without it.
Thanks! I ask sdurani below, but, does Audyssey align the mains and subs for phase? Could that be whats going on in that region?

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One last thing to try if you're willing: subs in the front corners of the room. You'll probably end up with a peak at the midpoint of room width (where your main listening position is), but that can be brought down with EQ. However, it might help minimize some of the nulls. Worth a try, since you're doing measurements anyway. No.
The left sub could. I can try that next weekend. Does Audyssey correct for phase? That's what the delay does right? I was talking to someone else who had a similar issue and it turned out to be the phase on the subwoofers. My understanding is that Audyssey corrects for that with the delay?
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post #27736 of 28132 Old 08-26-2019, 08:34 AM
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The left sub could. I can try that next weekend.
If you can't put both subs in corners, then no need to do a measurement.
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...does Audyssey align the mains and subs for phase?
No, if you see a peak or dip in the crossover area, you have to adjust the subwoofer delay manually to get rid of the problem (Audyssey won't do it for you).
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Could that be whats going on in that region?
How would that be possible if you were measuring only the subs? Unless you weren't measuring only the subs?

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post #27737 of 28132 Old 08-26-2019, 08:42 AM
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No, if you see a peak or dip in the crossover area, you have to adjust the subwoofer delay manually to get rid of the problem (Audyssey won't do it for you).
Doesn't the automatic distance setting of the subwoofers handle that? I mean my subwoofer just has a "Delay" knob, isn't that the same as Audyssey would do?

If not, let me know if this is how to diagnose?
1. Take a measurement as is
2. Turn the delay forward on both subwoofers 25% and remeasure
3. Turn them 50%
4. 75%
5. 100%

Pick the setting that fixes my issue?

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How would that be possible if you were measuring only the subs? Unless you weren't measuring only the subs?
lol, good point. No, it was only the subs. The ones were I was doing subs + main are labelled.
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post #27738 of 28132 Old 08-26-2019, 09:09 AM
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Doesn't the automatic distance setting of the subwoofers handle that?
No, Audyssey automatically sets delays for each speaker and both subs, but it doesn't adjust subwoofer delay/phase for smoothest subwoofer+speaker blend (that interaction is not measured by Audyssey).
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I mean my subwoofer just has a "Delay" knob, isn't that the same as Audyssey would do?
Don't know what the delay knob on your subwoofer does internally.
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If not, let me know if this is how to diagnose?
IF you've got a peak or dip in the crossover region AND you've confirmed that it is not due to the room (which is why it is important to measure subwoofers alone), then just keep adjusting the subwoofer delay in your AVR and re-measure until the problem goes away. If adding distance makes the problem worse, then try going the other way (subtracting distance).
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post #27739 of 28132 Old 08-26-2019, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
No, Audyssey automatically sets delays for each speaker and both subs, but it doesn't adjust subwoofer delay/phase for smoothest subwoofer+speaker blend (that interaction is not measured by Audyssey). Don't know what the delay knob on your subwoofer does internally. IF you've got a peak or dip in the crossover region AND you've confirmed that it is not due to the room (which is why it is important to measure subwoofers alone), then just keep adjusting the subwoofer delay in your AVR and re-measure until the problem goes away. If adding distance makes the problem worse, then try going the other way (subtracting distance).
Thank you. When you and I moved the subs to those 1/4 locations the dip went away in that area (but grew down low in another spot so they got moved back to their ~33% locations), and while the speakers do roll off around 80Hz, they don't roll off as steep at the measurements are showing - so I think it is something with the interaction between my mains and subs. I will try adjusting the delay in the receiver tonight and re-measuring, thanks so much for stickin' with me sdurani.
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post #27740 of 28132 Old 09-01-2019, 01:09 AM
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issue when checking level and sweep

Using a Denon 8500 with multi-channel 7.1

when I do the "check levels" test on say my front left speaker the check plays through all my other speakers?

If I run a sweep most of the sweep comes through the selected speaker, but can also be heard on all my other speakers?

any guidance appreciated
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post #27741 of 28132 Old 09-01-2019, 06:41 AM
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Using a Denon 8500 with multi-channel 7.1

any guidance appreciated
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post #27742 of 28132 Old 09-01-2019, 06:57 AM
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@AustinJerry , is there any difference in b/w using your guide to time align subs VS using REW Timing Reference and then using Overlay Impulse to align the impulses?
Your question is not clear to me.

Sub time alignment is a two-step process. First, if you have multiple subs, the subs must be time-aligned with each other. Page 22 of the 2x4 Setup Guide linked in my sig describes this process.

Second, the combined sub signal need to be time-aligned with the mains, which is typically done by observing the smoothness of the frequency response around the crossover frequency, which is what the Subwoofer Distance Tweak procedure is used for.

If you still have questions, please let me know.
Hey Jerry, when I did my dual subs I “think” I did what you recommend in the first part of this response (not sure).

What I did was 1st physically measure both subs to MLP to set the distance/delay and input that into the MiniDSP (was only 0.67 as they are almost same distance away from me). Then, I used REW to generate automatic EQ for the subs at that distance and then I exported that to the MiniDSP. Then I did my DIRAC room correction after that. That’s all I did and though that was all I was supposed to do.

I didn’t do your second part which is to match or align the dual subs with the mains. A couple questions:

1) at what point am I supposed to do that part in my sequence; after the MiniDSP gets the exported auto eq curves and worth the room eq still off or do that after I have done Dirac?

2) is this part very important? Am I missing something by just eqing subs and then running Dirac?

3) by mains and matching mains, do you mean just the front left and right towers or the towers and the Center channel or all my 5.1.4 speakers?

4) is there a page number in the REW quite that this instructions are? I have been going back and forth over the last month and trying to slowly learn and digest parts of REW but have to admit that at times it is daunting and takes some rereading to wrap my head around concepts

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post #27743 of 28132 Old 09-01-2019, 08:02 AM
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Hey Jerry, when I did my dual subs I “think” I did what you recommend in the first part of this response (not sure).

What I did was 1st physically measure both subs to MLP to set the distance/delay and input that into the MiniDSP (was only 0.67 as they are almost same distance away from me). Then, I used REW to generate automatic EQ for the subs at that distance and then I exported that to the MiniDSP. Then I did my DIRAC room correction after that. That’s all I did and though that was all I was supposed to do.

I didn’t do your second part which is to match or align the dual subs with the mains. A couple questions:

1) at what point am I supposed to do that part in my sequence; after the MiniDSP gets the exported auto eq curves and worth the room eq still off or do that after I have done Dirac?

2) is this part very important? Am I missing something by just eqing subs and then running Dirac?

3) by mains and matching mains, do you mean just the front left and right towers or the towers and the Center channel or all my 5.1.4 speakers?

4) is there a page number in the REW quite that this instructions are? I have been going back and forth over the last month and trying to slowly learn and digest parts of REW but have to admit that at times it is daunting and takes some rereading to wrap my head around concepts
You were correct when you measured the physical distance of each sub to the MLP and set the delay in the 2x4. However, this must be verified using REW, because physical measurements are not as accurate as acoustic measurements. Refer to the section in the 2x4 Setup Guide linked in my sig, page 21, "Checking Sub Alignment using REW Impulse Response Measurement". This procedure will verify the subs are aligned with each other.

Next step is to measure the combined sub response using REW, and using the combined response as input to REW's EQ tool. Apply the resulting PEW filters to the combined sub signal. Do NOT measure subs individually and apply different PEQ to each sub. Summing equalized individual subs does not necessarily produce an optimized combined sub signal. Besides, we listen to the combined signal, not the individual sub signals.

Next step is to run the Dirac Live calibration.

Final step is to measure subs+mains (I typically use subs+center). Observe the flatness of the response in the crossover region. If not as flat as you would like, use the "Sub distance tweak" procedure to improve the response, as described on p. 14 of the 88A-BM Setup Guide linked in my sig.

I have never found it necessary to time-align the mains--Dirac has always done an excellent job of time alignment.
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post #27744 of 28132 Old 09-01-2019, 08:29 AM
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If using Win 10, go to device manager and delete the av receiver driver and then rescan. A recent video card update had scrambled by HDMI audio output.
I have never seen my AVR in device manger
I just checked again and it is not listed
can you expand on where to find it?
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post #27745 of 28132 Old 09-01-2019, 09:27 AM
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I have never seen my AVR in device manger
I just checked again and it is not listed
can you expand on where to find it?
With your AVR connected to the laptop, open File Explorer, right-click "This PC", select "Properties", and then select "Device Manager". Expand "Audio Inputs and Outputs" and you should see your AVR as the Display Audio device (see attached screenshot). Click the Driver tab, and select "Uninstall Device". Once the device has been uninstalled, right-click
the computer in the top of the Device Manager list and select "Scan for Hardware Changes". The AVR will be discovered and a fresh copy of the device driver will be installed.

Whether or not this rtesolves your issue remains to be seen, but it can't hurt to give this recommendation a try.
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post #27746 of 28132 Old 09-01-2019, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
With your AVR connected to the laptop, open File Explorer, right-click "This PC", select "Properties", and then select "Device Manager". Expand "Audio Inputs and Outputs" and you should see your AVR as the Display Audio device (see attached screenshot). Click the Driver tab, and select "Uninstall Device". Once the device has been uninstalled, right-click
the computer in the top of the Device Manager list and select "Scan for Hardware Changes". The AVR will be discovered and a fresh copy of the device driver will be installed.

Whether or not this rtesolves your issue remains to be seen, but it can't hurt to give this recommendation a try.
@AustinJerry
@Chuck666

Much obliged for the advice guys
I will do that tomorrow and feedback my findings
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post #27747 of 28132 Old 09-01-2019, 03:40 PM
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Using a Denon 8500 with multi-channel 7.1

when I do the "check levels" test on say my front left speaker the check plays through all my other speakers?

If I run a sweep most of the sweep comes through the selected speaker, but can also be heard on all my other speakers?

Make sure the sound mode on the Denon is not set to "Multi Ch Stereo". IIRC the correct mode is "Multi Ch Input".
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Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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post #27748 of 28132 Old 09-02-2019, 12:48 AM
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Hi Jerry / Sanjay,

Your input will be appreciated.

After having done some extensive listening tests with both music and movies, I came to realise that the lows were a touch emphasised and I was missing the detail in the lower-mids including the minor environmental sounds in movies and the minor background instruments in music. The idea was to bring back those details without compromising the nice punch in the LFEs and bass instruments.

Have a look at the attached response and let me have your views.
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post #27749 of 28132 Old 09-02-2019, 12:51 AM
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I need to download the manual for the miniDSP 2x4HD and go through it but maybe users here can enlighten me. Does the 2x4HD allow filters at any frequency along the full range ?

My PEQ does not allow filters between 200Hz and 1Khz.
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post #27750 of 28132 Old 09-02-2019, 08:31 AM
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Sam, it's impossible to tell you whether you'll like what you hear based on a graph. You are the one listening to the results. None of us are. You will have to tell us whether the new curve sounds better TO YOU. Not the other way 'round.

Sanjay
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