Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 926 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #27751 of 28216 Old 09-02-2019, 08:38 AM
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I need to download the manual for the miniDSP 2x4HD and go through it but maybe users here can enlighten me. Does the 2x4HD allow filters at any frequency along the full range ?

My PEQ does not allow filters between 200Hz and 1Khz.
I agree completely with Sanjay’s comment—only you can tell.

As for your 2x4HD question, best to ask in the MIniDSP thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...0-minidsp.html
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post #27752 of 28216 Old 09-02-2019, 09:24 AM
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Thanks Sanjay / Jerry,

I suppose you guys are right, it all bottles down to personal preference.

My system sounds good now but I'm still tinkering around with bass levels and the curve below my XO within the limitations of my room and single sub.

Do you think the both of you could post your Centre+Sub full-range room responses from the MLP just for my interest and reference ? - that is, if you still have it on back-up.
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post #27753 of 28216 Old 09-02-2019, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
Thanks Sanjay / Jerry,

I suppose you guys are right, it all bottles down to personal preference.

My system sounds good now but I'm still tinkering around with bass levels and the curve below my XO within the limitations of my room and single sub.

Do you think the both of you could post your Centre+Sub full-range room responses from the MLP just for my interest and reference ? - that is, if you still have it on back-up.
Here you go. Remember, when examining low frequency response, smoothing should be off. My crossover is 100Hz.

And if you have room for additional subs, you may find this interesting: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...l#post23859810
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post #27754 of 28216 Old 09-02-2019, 11:49 AM
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Make sure the sound mode on the Denon is not set to "Multi Ch Stereo". IIRC the correct mode is "Multi Ch Input".
Thanks for the suggestion as per my OP I did have Multi Ch 7.1 showing on the display
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post #27755 of 28216 Old 09-02-2019, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Hey Jerry, when I did my dual subs I “thinkâ€Â I did what you recommend in the first part of this response (not sure).

What I did was 1st physically measure both subs to MLP to set the distance/delay and input that into the MiniDSP (was only 0.67 as they are almost same distance away from me). Then, I used REW to generate automatic EQ for the subs at that distance and then I exported that to the MiniDSP. Then I did my DIRAC room correction after that. That’️s all I did and though that was all I was supposed to do.

I didn’️t do your second part which is to match or align the dual subs with the mains. A couple questions:

1) at what point am I supposed to do that part in my sequence; after the MiniDSP gets the exported auto eq curves and worth the room eq still off or do that after I have done Dirac?

2) is this part very important? Am I missing something by just eqing subs and then running Dirac?

3) by mains and matching mains, do you mean just the front left and right towers or the towers and the Center channel or all my 5.1.4 speakers?

4) is there a page number in the REW quite that this instructions are? I have been going back and forth over the last month and trying to slowly learn and digest parts of REW but have to admit that at times it is daunting and takes some rereading to wrap my head around concepts
You were correct when you measured the physical distance of each sub to the MLP and set the delay in the 2x4. However, this must be verified using REW, because physical measurements are not as accurate as acoustic measurements. Refer to the section in the 2x4 Setup Guide linked in my sig, page 21, "Checking Sub Alignment using REW Impulse Response Measurement". This procedure will verify the subs are aligned with each other.

Next step is to measure the combined sub response using REW, and using the combined response as input to REW's EQ tool. Apply the resulting PEW filters to the combined sub signal. Do NOT measure subs individually and apply different PEQ to each sub. Summing equalized individual subs does not necessarily produce an optimized combined sub signal. Besides, we listen to the combined signal, not the individual sub signals.

Next step is to run the Dirac Live calibration.

Final step is to measure subs+mains (I typically use subs+center). Observe the flatness of the response in the crossover region. If not as flat as you would like, use the "Sub distance tweak" procedure to improve the response, as described on p. 14 of the 88A-BM Setup Guide linked in my sig.

I have never found it necessary to time-align the mains--Dirac has always done an excellent job of time alignment.
Ok. I will turn off Dirac and reset to default the PEQ inputted into the MiniDSP so I can go back to after the physical measurements of the sub distance. Then I will try doing the impulse response step to verify then do the combined response to then input into MiniDSP -which is I think what I did the first time...

One last bit that I want to be clear about is: when you said Dirac usually made it not necessary to time align after-is that the part that you do the Center channel with the combined subs?

In other words, does the fact that I’m using Dirac (maybe) make it so I might not need to do the Center and subs combined test you mentioned?

Lastly, when you say about measuring to see if flat across the crossover area, how much are you talking to be flat? I use 80 cross overs everywhere except in ceiling speakers are set to 90 so should the flat part be 60-100? Or 70-90?

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post #27756 of 28216 Old 09-02-2019, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post

One last bit that I want to be clear about is: when you said Dirac usually made it not necessary to time align after-is that the part that you do the Center channel with the combined subs?

In other words, does the fact that I’m using Dirac (maybe) make it so I might not need to do the Center and subs combined test you mentioned?

Lastly, when you say about measuring to see if flat across the crossover area, how much are you talking to be flat? I use 80 cross overs everywhere except in ceiling speakers are set to 90 so should the flat part be 60-100? Or 70-90?
OK, let me say it once again, hopefully clear this time. Dirac does an excellent job at aligning the mains to each other, so no additional time alignment adjustments should be required. However, for mains to subs, Dirac cannot optimize the phase relationship. That is why everyone should experiment with the Sub Distance Tweak. In some cases, this procedure can significantly improve the phase relationship, shown by a flatter response in the crossover region. In other cases, the procedure may not produce a significant improvement. Regardless, there is no harm in trying the procedure out.
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post #27757 of 28216 Old 09-02-2019, 02:42 PM
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@AustinJerry
@Chuck666

Much obliged for the advice guys
I will do that tomorrow and feedback my findings
So deleted the driver as suggested and reinstalled it
happy to report that it seems to work so thanks again guys
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post #27758 of 28216 Old 09-02-2019, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Here you go. Remember, when examining low frequency response, smoothing should be off. My crossover is 100Hz.

And if you have room for additional subs, you may find this interesting: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...l#post23859810
Thanks Jerry, those are exceptional responses !

Attached is my response without smoothing, I think the dips and peaks are a result of room modes. I do intend getting additional subs in the future.
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post #27759 of 28216 Old 09-02-2019, 02:46 PM
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Yes, definitely opportunities for improvement.
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post #27760 of 28216 Old 09-02-2019, 03:02 PM
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Over the years experimenting and after extensive reading and trying my subs all over my room I decided to go back to basics to try and position my subs at the front of the room

I positioned my subs on the front wall corners in the hope of reducing 1st and 3rd modes and being left with only the 4th mode but unfortunately got the same result as before
I have tried 1/4 width but it does nothing improve the null
comparing the sweep i did tonight REW room Sim seems to be spot on and my conclusion is no hope of having 2 subs at the front

actual room size 20 feet long x 17 foot 6" wide + an alcove x 8 feet heigh
using my graphs the room models closer to the dimensions shown in the Harman mode calculator
MLP is approx 38% of room length

For clarity no EQ has been applied

Any help on a way forward would be appreciated
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post #27761 of 28216 Old 09-02-2019, 04:07 PM
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A 35Hz primary mode associated with room width suggests that a sub should be placed in the center of the front or back wall. Is this one of the placements you tried?
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post #27762 of 28216 Old 09-02-2019, 04:25 PM
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A 35Hz primary mode associated with room width suggests that a sub should be placed in the center of the front or back wall. Is this one of the placements you tried?
I assume that would require a 3rd sub?
My centre speaker is in the way at the front and placing that on a sub would bring it above the bottom of my projector screen
Room sim suggests a 3rd sub at back wall centre moves the null to 50Hz

I would add that moving the mic to the left or right of the MLP the null does not change it

It really seem that having both subs at the front is not an option
one front right and one rear left seems to work at the cost of tactile effect
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post #27763 of 28216 Old 09-02-2019, 05:23 PM
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I assume that would require a 3rd sub?
My centre speaker is in the way at the front and placing that on a sub would bring it above the bottom of my projector screen
Room sim suggests a 3rd sub at back wall centre moves the null to 50Hz

I would add that moving the mic to the left or right of the MLP the null does not change it

It really seem that having both subs at the front is not an option
one front right and one rear left seems to work at the cost of tactile effect
I am just going from the room mode calculator that you posted, which shows a 35Hz null at the width mid-point. To address a null, one would place a sub in the center of the null. If not on the front wall, how about the back wall? I think it is worth a try, just to see if it mitigates that nasty 35Hz dip. I don’t recall you saying whether your room is a closed rectangle, or whether there are open spots or other irregularities. If not a closed rectangle, then the wall mid-point may not work.
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post #27764 of 28216 Old 09-03-2019, 12:31 AM
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When connecting the minidsp DDRC-24 to my Pioneer A70s integrated amplifier, should I use the power amp direct connection to control the volume only via MiniDSP IR controller?

Or should I just use another input on the amp (like CD/SACD for example) and set the volume control of the amplifier at something fixed like 12 o clock?

I'm asking this because I don't have a receiver, so will be connecting the sub directly to the MiniDSP (out 3) and then use the out 1 and 2 to my amplifier..
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post #27765 of 28216 Old 09-03-2019, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I am just going from the room mode calculator that you posted, which shows a 35Hz null at the width mid-point. To address a null, one would place a sub in the center of the null. If not on the front wall, how about the back wall? I think it is worth a try, just to see if it mitigates that nasty 35Hz dip. I don’t recall you saying whether your room is a closed rectangle, or whether there are open spots or other irregularities. If not a closed rectangle, then the wall mid-point may not work.
Thanks Jerry
I'm certainly open to experimenting

my room is sealed but it is an odd shape which doesn't help
the room is 20 ft long
the front wall is also 20 ft wide and goes into an alcove
where it comes out of the 8 ft 7" long alcove the room is 17' 6" wide all the way to the back wall which again is 17 ft 6" wide
there is also a window on the left wall
I will post a sweep with one sub in a front corner and one on the rear wall midpoint later
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post #27766 of 28216 Old 09-03-2019, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post

One last bit that I want to be clear about is: when you said Dirac usually made it not necessary to time align after-is that the part that you do the Center channel with the combined subs?

In other words, does the fact that I’️m using Dirac (maybe) make it so I might not need to do the Center and subs combined test you mentioned?

Lastly, when you say about measuring to see if flat across the crossover area, how much are you talking to be flat? I use 80 cross overs everywhere except in ceiling speakers are set to 90 so should the flat part be 60-100? Or 70-90?
OK, let me say it once again, hopefully clear this time. Dirac does an excellent job at aligning the mains to each other, so no additional time alignment adjustments should be required. However, for mains to subs, Dirac cannot optimize the phase relationship. That is why everyone should experiment with the Sub Distance Tweak. In some cases, this procedure can significantly improve the phase relationship, shown by a flatter response in the crossover region. In other cases, the procedure may not produce a significant improvement. Regardless, there is no harm in trying the procedure out.
Ok. That makes sense.
I have one last ( for now 🙂 question. If I align the phase and timing of the Center to the subs through impulse step above, and the response is flat across the crossover, could Dirac then change or alter or undo that in any way when I do the Dirac at the last step or does it not do that when it is also trying to align the mains?

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post #27767 of 28216 Old 09-03-2019, 06:18 AM
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Dirac is not the last step - the sub distance tweak is!
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post #27768 of 28216 Old 09-03-2019, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Ok. That makes sense.
I have one last ( for now 🙂 question. If I align the phase and timing of the Center to the subs through impulse step above, and the response is flat across the crossover, could Dirac then change or alter or undo that in any way when I do the Dirac at the last step or does it not do that when it is also trying to align the mains?
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Dirac is not the last step - the sub distance tweak is!
@Soulburner has provided the correct advice.
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post #27769 of 28216 Old 09-03-2019, 08:09 AM
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@Soulburner : I posted this response to an issue you reported several weeks ago: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post58486032

I was hoping for your opinion before taking my findings to the NAD thread. Can you take a look?
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post #27770 of 28216 Old 09-03-2019, 06:48 PM
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@Soulburner : I posted this response to an issue you reported several weeks ago: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post58486032

I was hoping for your opinion before taking my findings to the NAD thread. Can you take a look?
Thanks. It looks like it might be seen only on the NAD, since your 88A appears to work as expected.

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post #27771 of 28216 Old 09-03-2019, 06:52 PM
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Thanks. It looks like it might be seen only on the NAD, since your 88A appears to work as expected.
So, the issue is whether the NAD implementation is flawed, or that the method used by NAD owners to measure the results in REW is flawed. Did you make REW measurements yourself?
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post #27772 of 28216 Old 09-03-2019, 08:17 PM
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Dirac is not the last step - the sub distance tweak is!
Ok-but won’t that last step undo the Dirac calibration?
I was always told that if any major setting or anything in the room or speakers are changed then that makes the Dirac calibration not current or accurate anymore and must be redone...?

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post #27773 of 28216 Old 09-03-2019, 08:37 PM
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Ok-but won’t that last step undo the Dirac calibration?
I was always told that if any major setting or anything in the room or speakers are changed then that makes the Dirac calibration not current or accurate anymore and must be redone...?
Dirac creates filters. The sub distance tweak fine-tunes the phase relationship between mains and subs, which has nothing to do with the Dirac filters. You came here asking for advice and have received guidance from several contributors. No disrespect, but if you don't want to follow the advice, then why ask in the first place?
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So, the issue is whether the NAD implementation is flawed, or that the method used by NAD owners to measure the results in REW is flawed. Did you make REW measurements yourself?
Yes, I did - I usually measure after Dirac, especially the subs only. As did another commenter in the thread.

I have yet to try Dirac v2, so I will eventually find out if this issue persists when I get to playing with it again.

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post #27775 of 28216 Old 09-04-2019, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Ok-but won’️t that last step undo the Dirac calibration?
I was always told that if any major setting or anything in the room or speakers are changed then that makes the Dirac calibration not current or accurate anymore and must be redone...?
Dirac creates filters. The sub distance tweak fine-tunes the phase relationship between mains and subs, which has nothing to do with the Dirac filters. You came here asking for advice and have received guidance from several contributors. No disrespect, but if you don't want to follow the advice, then why ask in the first place?
Thanks Jerry, I do appreciate the advice. The reason for all the questions is because I am just wrapping my mind around these things and trying to learn as well before I next run my REW which I have only had three runs so far to play around with in real time testing.

You see, it’s not super easy for me to just set it up with all the equipment as much as some people. I have three small children as well as a wife that works form home and my computer with REW is a Mac instead of a laptop so there is much more to unplug and take into another room then if I had it all in a laptop or MacBook Air or something.

Definetly no disrespect taken. Again? I’m just trying to also learn this stuff as well and I do appreciate all the help you guys give over time.
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post #27776 of 28216 Old 09-04-2019, 06:26 AM
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Definetly no disrespect taken. Again? I’m just trying to also learn this stuff as well and I do appreciate all the help you guys give over time.
I understand, and appreciate the challenges you face. We are here to help if we can.
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post #27777 of 28216 Old 09-04-2019, 08:42 AM
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Ok-but won’t that last step undo the Dirac calibration?
No, it won't, because Dirac calibrates/equalizes each speaker and subwoofer as though none of the other speakers and subwoofers exist. The sub distance tweak does something that Dirac doesn't (currently) do: use subwoofer delay to fine tune the sub/speaker blend. Since this blending is something Dirac doesn't do, that step not undoing the Dirac calibration.
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post #27778 of 28216 Old 09-04-2019, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I am just going from the room mode calculator that you posted, which shows a 35Hz null at the width mid-point. To address a null, one would place a sub in the center of the null. If not on the front wall, how about the back wall? I think it is worth a try, just to see if it mitigates that nasty 35Hz dip. I don’t recall you saying whether your room is a closed rectangle, or whether there are open spots or other irregularities. If not a closed rectangle, then the wall mid-point may not work.
So as suggested I moved the front left sub into the back wall midpoint and as Jerry thought it is a marked improvement

from there I experimenting with moving the MLP forward and this is the result
I don't know if it is a downside but the MLP is now very close to the centre of the room length?
the 70 Hz null would appear to be a height node
here is the result with no EQ
feedback would be greatly appreciated
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post #27779 of 28216 Old 09-04-2019, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
So as suggested I moved the front left sub into the back wall midpoint and as Jerry thought it is a marked improvement

from there I experimenting with moving the MLP forward and this is the result
I don't know if it is a downside but the MLP is now very close to the centre of the room length?
the 70 Hz null would appear to be a height node
here is the result with no EQ
feedback would be greatly appreciated
I think it is a clear improvement. Can you hear a difference? Perhaps if you are tired of moving things around, what you have now is "good enough"?
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post #27780 of 28216 Old 09-04-2019, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I think it is a clear improvement. Can you hear a difference? Perhaps if you are tired of moving things around, what you have now is "good enough"?
Yeah it does look good
I haven't had a listen but my concern is that the MLP is now close to the middle of the room which as I understand it is not ideal
if I measure further back the original room modes and null start to reappear
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