Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 946 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #28351 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Aural_Sex View Post
Thanks to the REW intro, this sub, and a free afternoon, I was able to tweak my freshly built 18's on the nx6000d. I'm going to look into the house curve next; anywhere else I should be heading down this rabbit-hole?
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
House curve to boost those babies up at the low end.
Try a low pass at 20Hz +6dB. I put it in the DEQ section so it's independent of my eq settings.
Have fun.
Michael
Low shelf. I would use +8dB @ 30hz, but 20hz can work well too.

Looking good Aural! With a House Curve, you typically want 30hz to be about 8dB-10dB (or more) higher than 100hz. Play with the boost on the LS filter until it sounds right to you.
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post #28352 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 10:19 AM
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Can't find the thread I originally posted in but no matter. I re-ran my sub setup following the rather long video posted by home theatre guru. Previous steps have confirmed that 0.9v is achieved on my avr when master volume is at - 4.5.
When my first setup was completed audessey set my subs to - 5 so all good. After the latest setup audessey set my subs at - 10. Not good. What is the easiest way to correct this. Jerry's paper recommends going through the gain matching step again. It is a time consuming task. I assume reducing the trim in the plugin would not be ideal or Jerry would have suggested that method. Why.
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post #28353 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 10:27 AM
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Can i assume that the goal is to have the maximum signal going to the subs from the dsp.
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post #28354 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Rich 63 View Post
Can't find the thread I originally posted in but no matter. I re-ran my sub setup following the rather long video posted by home theatre guru. Previous steps have confirmed that 0.9v is achieved on my avr when master volume is at - 4.5.
When my first setup was completed audessey set my subs to - 5 so all good. After the latest setup audessey set my subs at - 10. Not good. What is the easiest way to correct this. Jerry's paper recommends going through the gain matching step again. It is a time consuming task. I assume reducing the trim in the plugin would not be ideal or Jerry would have suggested that method. Why.
Regards
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Originally Posted by Rich 63 View Post
Can i assume that the goal is to have the maximum signal going to the subs from the dsp.
SeverL thoughts. First of all, it is important to understand what happened that is different with the latest Audyssey run vs. the previous ones. The trim would not change from -5 to -10 without some other change happening, such as a different setting on the sub plate amp. I suggest you try and explain the change before proceeding. Also, Audyssey is setting the trim to achieve ~75dB at the MLP. In previous calibrations, a trim of -5 achieved the 75dB level. Now, a trim of -10 achieves 75dB as well. In both cases, if 75dB is indeed being reached, you should hear no difference at all. So I disagree with your “not good” assessment.

Second, the gain-matching procedure need not be that difficult. Some people might advocate moving the subs to the center of the room before gain-matching. I don’t do that anymore because of the difficulty of moving heavy subs around. Rather, I place the REW mic tip ~1” in front of the sub’s dust cap, without moving the sub. I find the closeness of the mic eliminates room effects and is “good enough” to achieve the gain-matching goal. IOW, gain-matching is really not that difficult.

Third, in theory the signal to the sub should be high enough to be close to, but not exceed, the sub’s ability to reproduce sound with out distorting or physically bottoming out. This achieves an optimal signal-to-noise ratio. However, it is difficult (and perhaps dangerous) to fine-tune the output to achieve this objective. I don’t pay any attention to the voltage output from the DSP to the sub’s any more, and I don’t perceive any signal-to-noise issue. My recommendation would be to not worry about this.
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post #28355 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 10:56 AM
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Low shelf. I would use +8dB @ 30hz, but 20hz can work well too.
Hmm.


Then I guess "LP12" stands for "shelf"?
I am, however, more than willing to try +8 at 30Hz.
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post #28356 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 11:03 AM
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Hmm.

Then I guess "LP12" stands for "shelf"?
I am, however, more than willing to try +8 at 30Hz.
Michael
Well, “low pass” filter means it allows low frequencies to pass. An LP does not boost the signal. A low shelf, OTOH, implies setting the target curve to a higher value. I do not know why the label on the iNuke is “LP”, since I have never owned an iNuke.
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post #28357 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I do not know why the label on the iNuke is “LP”, since I have never owned an iNuke.
Apparently, owning an iNuke does not automatically convey an understanding.
I do feel better about my confusion, however.
Thank you both.
Michael
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post #28358 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Hmm.
Then I guess "LP12" stands for "shelf"?
I am, however, more than willing to try +8 at 30Hz.
Michael
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Well, “low pass” filter means it allows low frequencies to pass. An LP does not boost the signal. A low shelf, OTOH, implies setting the target curve to a higher value. I do not know why the label on the iNuke is “LP”, since I have never owned an iNuke.
I do have an iNuke (for the Crowsons) but have never used the PEQ. I'm with Jerry, no idea why it is labeled "LP".
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post #28359 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 11:52 AM
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Thanks Jerry for the reply.
When I did the first setup I simply entered the delays based on the actual distances. This time i added one sub [the furthest] to the setup took a measurement. I added a second sub into the equation, played with delay and polarity to increase the overall SPL between both and that became my baseline when adding the next sub. Rinse and repeat. I don't know if this played a factor as I erased some of my early data.
The other reason for the increased SPL is likely the way I created my first peq filter. I took 5 sweeps around my mlp then combined as 1 and asked rew to create filters for that.
I realized my likely mistake which is the reason a did it all over.
I know for sure that the gain on the subs have not been touched as I taped the gain pots in place after gain matching.
I do gain matching as you do,the procedure itself is easy. Its having to run audessey over and over. My version requires 3 sweeps of 6 before you can calculate. So figuring I'm half way there I complete the test and cross my fingers it's right.
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post #28360 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich 63 View Post
Thanks Jerry for the reply.
When I did the first setup I simply entered the delays based on the actual distances. This time i added one sub [the furthest] to the setup took a measurement. I added a second sub into the equation, played with delay and polarity to increase the overall SPL between both and that became my baseline when adding the next sub. Rinse and repeat. I don't know if this played a factor as I erased some of my early data.
The other reason for the increased SPL is likely the way I created my first peq filter. I took 5 sweeps around my mlp then combined as 1 and asked rew to create filters for that.
I realized my likely mistake which is the reason a did it all over.
I know for sure that the gain on the subs have not been touched as I taped the gain pots in place after gain matching.
I do gain matching as you do,the procedure itself is easy. Its having to run audessey over and over. My version requires 3 sweeps of 6 before you can calculate. So figuring I'm half way there I complete the test and cross my fingers it's right.
Remember what was probably my most important point--just because the current trim is -10 vs. the previous -5 does not mean the calibration is flawed, or that the sub output is lower. If you measure output with REW, you could compare the current output with the previous output. It should be the same if Audyssey is working properly.
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post #28361 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 01:18 PM
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Looking for a recommendation.

I replaced my inuke 3k with an inuke 6k. I decided to basically start over with the setup. Checking phase, timing and rerun Audyssey. 2 RSS460Ho in sealed enclosures. front left and front right.

I am also using my old Dayton SUB1200 in the back left corner. This is where I am looking for some advice. I thought I had all 3 integrated pretty well and liked the fullness with all 3. After running through REW and Audyssey I am not convinced using the Dayton is truly helping.

My observation would be that the 2 sealed 18s in the front are more accurate but adding the dayton 12 sounds fuller because it is almost nearfield but sounds a little muddied.

My concern is that I want to replace the Dayton 12 with sealed 15 and the inuke 3k. I am worried about the location not being good. Mabey i should move one of the 18" there to get a better comparison. I included the REW measurements to look at.

Edit: I found a graph of the 18" in the LR corner vs the SUB1200. The levels are not the same but the graph looks pretty similar.
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post #28362 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 01:22 PM
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On another thought looking ahead what would be the recommendation to align the 2 front subs and center channel?
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post #28363 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I do have an iNuke (for the Crowsons) but have never used the PEQ. I'm with Jerry, no idea why it is labeled "LP".
Glad I'm not the only one. A quick Google shows the following filters (not specific to the Behringer amps):
Main Morphing Filter
Cutoff - Morphing around Lowpass and Highpass filters.
Lowpass and Highpass filters include individual settings.

LP filter includes: - Resonance - Resonance Track (adjustment of low versus high cutoffs) - Booster (psycho-acoustic low shelf-filter) - Frequency (adjust the frequency of the low boost)

HP filter includes: - Resonance - Resonance Track (adjustment of high versus low cutoffs) - Booster (psycho-acoustic high shelf-filter) - Frequency (adjust the frequency of the high boost)

Multimode Filter
6 filter types that have the option to be used as either Pre/Post or Sum relative to the "Main LP/HP Morphing filter".

Multi-Mode:
- LP12: 12dB/oct lowpass
- LP24: 24dB/oct lowpass
- LP BW: Brickwall lowpass (Resonance not active)
- BP6: 6 dB/oct Bandpass roll-offs
- HP12: 12dB/oct highpass
- HP BW: Brickwall highpass (Resonance not active)

Any idea if these are industry standards?
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On another thought looking ahead what would be the recommendation to align the 2 front subs and center channel?
Typically the alignment between the combined sub channel and the mains would be accomplished using the sub distance tweak, not the impulse response.

And what is the crossover you are using? It seems that the combined sub response is rolling of quite quickly above ~60Hz.
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post #28365 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by LGERIC View Post
On another thought looking ahead what would be the recommendation to align the 2 front subs and center channel?
Typically the alignment between the combined sub channel and the mains would be accomplished using the sub distance tweak, not the impulse response.

And what is the crossover you are using? It seems that the combined sub response is rolling of quite quickly above ~60Hz.
80hz is the crossover. I am familiar with the distance tweak.

Audyssey has been setting my LR at 120 and the center at 60. I have also previously seen it set the speakers to large and 40 crossover on all.

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post #28366 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 02:40 PM
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My concern is that I want to replace the Dayton 12 with sealed 15 and the inuke 3k. I am worried about the location not being good. Mabey i should move one of the 18" there to get a better comparison.
This is what I would do. You are sort of comparing apples to oranges right now since the 1200 is ported. Place your sealed 18" there and see how it measures.

I would even consider moving the rear sub (whatever that ends up being) to VNF duty (Very Near Field; i.e. directly behind the seating).
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post #28367 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich 63 View Post
Thanks Jerry for the reply.
When I did the first setup I simply entered the delays based on the actual distances. This time i added one sub [the furthest] to the setup took a measurement. I added a second sub into the equation, played with delay and polarity to increase the overall SPL between both and that became my baseline when adding the next sub. Rinse and repeat. I don't know if this played a factor as I erased some of my early data.
The other reason for the increased SPL is likely the way I created my first peq filter. I took 5 sweeps around my mlp then combined as 1 and asked rew to create filters for that.
I realized my likely mistake which is the reason a did it all over.
I know for sure that the gain on the subs have not been touched as I taped the gain pots in place after gain matching.
I do gain matching as you do,the procedure itself is easy. Its having to run audessey over and over. My version requires 3 sweeps of 6 before you can calculate. So figuring I'm half way there I complete the test and cross my fingers it's right.
Remember what was probably my most important point--just because the current trim is -10 vs. the previous -5 does not mean the calibration is flawed, or that the sub output is lower. If you measure output with REW, you could compare the current output with the previous output. It should be the same if Audyssey is working properly.

Unfortunately I no longer have the data from the first run through so I can't compare.
Is it not possible that the summation I did the second time has increased sub output hence the reduction from - 5 to - 10. Or am I missing something.
Regardless I'm going to keep this configuration.
I'll just go through the gain matching step again.
The sound is far and away the best I've heard. The subs are integrating with the rest of the speakers beautifully and I'm not just hearing boomy sound but rather individual bass notes.
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post #28368 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
This is what I would do. You are sort of comparing apples to oranges right now since the 1200 is ported. Place your sealed 18" there and see how it measures.

I would even consider moving the rear sub (whatever that ends up being) to VNF duty (Very Near Field; i.e. directly behind the seating).
The corner sub in question is vnf for one seat but not the mlp.

I posted the comparison between the sealed 18 and the ported 12. The levels are not the same but the graph is eerily similar but there are obvious advantages to the sealed 18.

I guess the room wants what the room wants.

Over the winter I am pretty confident I will add the 15". Hopefully it works out.
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post #28369 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 03:56 PM
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Unfortunately I no longer have the data from the first run through so I can't compare.
Is it not possible that the summation I did the second time has increased sub output hence the reduction from - 5 to - 10. Or am I missing something.
Regardless I'm going to keep this configuration.
I'll just go through the gain matching step again.
The sound is far and away the best I've heard. The subs are integrating with the rest of the speakers beautifully and I'm not just hearing boomy sound but rather individual bass notes.
Of course it is possible that the sub output increased, and the -10 trim proves that it did. If it sounds good, I wouldn’t be concerned—just enjoy it.
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post #28370 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 04:11 PM
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80hz is the crossover. I am familiar with the distance tweak.

Audyssey has been setting my LR at 120 and the center at 60. I have also previously seen it set the speakers to large and 40 crossover on all.
Recall that Audyssey never "sets" a crossover--Audyssey only makes recommendations based on the roll-off that it measures during a calibration. You are always free to raise the crossover to whatever value you feel appropriate. This is especially true when Audyssey recommends a 40Hz crossover, or a "large" speaker setting.

What I still don't understand is why between 70Hz and 100Hz your sub response has a fairly rapid decrease (~20dB). If you look at the curve for my setup below, response remains solid up to the 100Hz crossover, after which the roll-off is consistent with the 24dB/Oct expected for the crossover. I don't think 18" subs should be rolling off the way they are, especially in such a critical frequency range. Any idea what is going on there? Have you tried a higher crossover and applied the sub distance tweak?





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post #28371 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 06:41 PM
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Recall that Audyssey never "sets" a crossover--Audyssey only makes recommendations based on the roll-off that it measures during a calibration. You are always free to raise the crossover to whatever value you feel appropriate. This is especially true when Audyssey recommends a 40Hz crossover, or a "large" speaker setting.

What I still don't understand is why between 70Hz and 100Hz your sub response has a fairly rapid decrease (~20dB). If you look at the curve for my setup below, response remains solid up to the 100Hz crossover, after which the roll-off is consistent with the 24dB/Oct expected for the crossover. I don't think 18" subs should be rolling off the way they are, especially in such a critical frequency range. Any idea what is going on there? Have you tried a higher crossover and applied the sub distance tweak?





I found this graph from earlier this year with different crossover settings. I feel like this has always been a problem between 80 and 100 but I did find a graph where it is not there also.

Other than the distance tweak what would I look at to correct the dip?

Do you have any recommendations for integrating the 3 subs? or should I not be concerned until I get the sub I want? I guess I am trying to be proactive with something that doesn't exist.
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I found this graph from earlier this year with different crossover settings. I feel like this has always been a problem between 80 and 100 but I did find a graph where it is not there also.

Other than the distance tweak what would I look at to correct the dip?

Do you have any recommendations for integrating the 3 subs? or should I not be concerned until I get the sub I want? I guess I am trying to be proactive with something that doesn't exist.
The first two graphs look terrible. The third doesn’t look bad. What is the difference?

Fixing sub response steps are well-known: experiment with different positions, apply PEQ, add additional subs. No rocket science, just a lot of hard work/
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post #28373 of 28395 Old 11-19-2019, 07:11 PM
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The third doesn’t look bad. What is the difference?
I think the magic words are "Dirac On."
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I think the magic words are "Dirac On."
I see where the “MiniDSP” is on. Where do you get Dirac Live from that?
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post #28375 of 28395 Old 11-20-2019, 07:48 AM
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I was looking at YOURS!

Sorry!
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post #28376 of 28395 Old 11-20-2019, 12:33 PM
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I don't remember the setup in the graph with the minidsp on and off. It was just a example that the room or settings can eliminate the big dip.

The other graphs were just to show the dip is there at any crossover point.

I don't use the minidsp with the inuke amp just the inuke dsp.

I will continue to work on the interaction between the subs and center.

Looking at the graph do you see any potential for the back corner? I don't see it adding or helping the response much. Right now I am only running the 2 18" in the front. I want to upgrade the 12" but if it isn't going to do much then I would rather save my money.

65" Sony X900E, Denon X2300, SVS Prime LCR, Polk TSI100 surround, 2X 18" RSS460HO sealed 3.5ft3, Inuke 6KDSP, minidsp 2x4 revA
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post #28377 of 28395 Old 11-20-2019, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by LGERIC View Post
I don't remember the setup in the graph with the minidsp on and off. It was just a example that the room or settings can eliminate the big dip.

The other graphs were just to show the dip is there at any crossover point.

I don't use the minidsp with the inuke amp just the inuke dsp.

I will continue to work on the interaction between the subs and center.

Looking at the graph do you see any potential for the back corner? I don't see it adding or helping the response much. Right now I am only running the 2 18" in the front. I want to upgrade the 12" but if it isn't going to do much then I would rather save my money.
If you haven’t tried any other placements other than two in front, trying something else seems like the logical thing to do.
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post #28378 of 28395 Old 11-21-2019, 09:30 PM
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Hi, I was told to get some help here.

I currently have ONE subwoofer on the left side, I am considering adding a second sub on the right side so it would fill the null around 70hz.

I have taken individual graphs of the sub's response on each side by itself.
Can you look at my .mdat file and see you can combine graph 1 and graph 3 and tell me if a second sub will be worth it?

My current issues:
1) Audy make the left side sub alone fairly good, but take up considerable headroom to equalize.

2) For the right side, Audyssey could not fix the dip in the 30 hz on the right side, nothing I do in positioning could get rid of the weak 30hz response when I place the sub there, only make more deep nulls if I rotate or move the sub some more.

Therefore I am not sure if buying the sub for the right side is worth it.

Thanks
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post #28379 of 28395 Old 11-21-2019, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by PoorSignal View Post
Hi, I was told to get some help here.

I currently have ONE subwoofer on the left side, I am considering adding a second sub on the right side so it would fill the null around 70hz.

I have taken individual graphs of the sub's response on each side by itself.
Can you look at my .mdat file and see you can combine graph 1 and graph 3 and tell me if a second sub will be worth it?

My current issues:
1) Audy make the left side sub alone fairly good, but take up considerable headroom to equalize.

2) For the right side, Audyssey could not fix the dip in the 30 hz on the right side, nothing I do in positioning could get rid of the weak 30hz response when I place the sub there, only make more deep nulls if I rotate or move the sub some more.

Therefore I am not sure if buying the sub for the right side is worth it.s

Thanks
You can combine the two sub measurements by opening the gear icon on the measurement screen and adding the two measurements together using the Trace Arithmetic function.

And regardless of what you think, more subs is always better. You may need to experiment with other positions. Placing the second sub on the right side may not be the best option.
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post #28380 of 28395 Old 11-24-2019, 11:14 PM
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So I am about to order the Umik-1 from spectrum labs website and was wondering if I need an spl meter as well? And if so can someone please recommend a good spl meter? Thanks.
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