Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 954 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #28591 of 28833 Old 01-21-2020, 09:32 AM
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Onur, the giant peak around 38Hz indicates a 14-15 foot dimension. What is your room length, width & height; and how far are you sitting from the back wall?

Also, can you take a measurement of your subwoofers from a couple feet forward AND rearward of your listening position to see whether the peak changes.
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post #28592 of 28833 Old 01-22-2020, 12:10 AM
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Thank you Michael and Sanjay.

Please bear with me, I am trying to understand the concepts and also I believe I do some measurements mistakes while performing the tests. I am attaching several photos/screenshots to give a better view of the room and also new measurements as you suggested.

First of all, perhaps it's time to ask couple of preliminary questions I had:

1) Why windows audio/ rew don't differentiate the surround (rear) speakers from top middle speakers (5.1.2 atmos setup)? My connection is OK via HDMI, can hear sound when selected Multi-in and Atmos displays on the receiver when I play netflix atmos content or dolby access demo. But in the speaker configuration (windows audio) and in REW when I test the top middle speakers sound is coming from rear surround speakers (the content plays OK just the speaker test/rew doesnt send signal to top middle speakers)

2) Sometimes in REW back to back measurements is giving different results (attachment 02 and 05 is supposed to be same but the dip at 80hz isn't). Perhaps I mix up things or perhaps it is the crossover point.

Now, for the measurements I am attaching below results for:

Part A)
01_sub_R_phase_180.jpg
02_sub_L_phase_0.jpg
03_sub_R+L_phase_0-180.jpg

Part B)
04_sub_R_phase_0.jpg
05_sub_L_phase_0(samewith02BUTdipat80hz).jpg
06_sub_R+L_phase_0-0.jpg

Part C)
07_sub_R+L_phase_0-0_+85cmfromMLP.jpg

Part D)
08_sub_R+L_phase_0-0_+115cmfromMLP.jpg

Part E)
09_sub_R+L_phase_0-0_-30cmfromMLP.jpg - - - - I conducted this measurement afterwards and I don't know why the SPL is so different (I believe I did this after setting up the limiter in the DSP)

And in my next post (due to number of attachments) I am posting some photos of the room and its size along with the setup info.

Finally, I believe I forgot to put a limiter in the first 8 screenshots hence the high dB figures. OK it was loud/rumbling at 40hz but I am not sure whether it was around 120dB (I thought it should be much louder).
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post #28593 of 28833 Old 01-22-2020, 12:17 AM
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Some info for the room:
- Room width: around 340cm - 11ft
- Room length: around 430cm - 14ft
- Ceiling height (max point): around 280cm - 9ft

In the photos, the couch is at the rear wall but actually it is where the mic stands.

And here is the latest settings:
- Denon S730h receiver
- windows 10 - asio4all - latest revision of REW
- 2x infinity 1260w subwoofers (in approximately 50x50x45cm ported boxes - net 85 liters/3ft^3)
- behringer nx3000 - bi-amp 1 mode (same signal split to two subs)
- lfe 80hz
- crossover 80hz
- floor noise level around 45db
- avr volume is at 50

Best,
Onur

NOTE: my plan is to replace the rear surround speakers with the same speakers used in the RCL (they will be mounted to the wall behind the couch).
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Last edited by Lex vs Kingpin; 01-22-2020 at 12:24 AM.
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post #28594 of 28833 Old 01-22-2020, 06:31 AM
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@Lex vs Kingpin your 14ft length room clearly shows 38hz is the peak and you are sitting up against back wall. Pull out your seating 4 feet from the wall to get out of the peak zone and remeasure.

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post #28595 of 28833 Old 01-22-2020, 08:19 AM
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Actually, for now, leave the seats where they are and take the MEASUREMENTS from 4 feet from the back wall.
Let's see if there's a difference first.
Michael
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post #28596 of 28833 Old 01-22-2020, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Actually, for now, leave the seats where they are and take the MEASUREMENTS from 4 feet from the back wall.
Let's see if there's a difference first.
Michael
all the measurement are already performed like that (except MLP + 85cm, MLP + 115cm, and MLP - 30cm screenshots).
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post #28597 of 28833 Old 01-22-2020, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lex vs Kingpin View Post

Please bear with me, I am trying to understand the concepts and also I believe I do some measurements mistakes while performing the tests. I am attaching several photos/screenshots to give a better view of the room and also new measurements as you suggested.
Unfortunately, having your primary seating position up against the wall is probably the worst place from an audio perspective. Room modes, as @ereed has said, are emphasized at a room's boundaries, which likely is causing that severe peak in your bass response. Given the size of your room, it may be a challenge to move the seating position forward away from the wall. As @LastButNotLeast has suggested, you can measure from a position several feet in front of the couch to verify that the peak in the bass response is improved, without having to actually move the couch. Once you understand the response characteristics of your room, you can decide how to proceed.
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post #28598 of 28833 Old 01-22-2020, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lex vs Kingpin View Post
Room length: around 430cm - 14ft
If you blow across an empty bottle, you can get the air inside that small chamber to resonate (make that boooh sound). If you enlarge that small chamber to the size of your room, the air in there will still resonate (of course at different frequencies than the empty bottle).

Your 14ft room length will have resonances (room modes) around 40Hz and multiples thereof. Each one of these room modes will result in peaks & nulls along the length of your room:



Each of the problem frequencies is colour coded, so you can see where its peaks & nulls are located. Notice that all the problem frequencies are peaking at/near the back wall:



But most of them are roughly the same level around 1/3 room length from the back wall:



So that's a good location for the listeners' ears.
Quote:
In the photos, the couch is at the rear wall but actually it is where the mic stands.
What is preventing you from moving the seating more forward: door, radiator, screen size; all of the above?
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post #28599 of 28833 Old 01-22-2020, 12:27 PM
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@AustinJerry , in your latest REW Getting Started guide, I am wondering how you came up with the suggestions to set the Windows 10 UMIK-1 microphone input level to 9.9dB, Windows 8 UMIK-1 microphone input level to 0dB, and Windows 7 UMIK-1 microphone input level to 5.0dB. I thought originally there were posts recommending to set the input level to Unity Gain which would be exactly 0.0dB? You have that for Windows 8 but not Windows 10 or 7. Why the difference? Also do your input settings recommendations change depending if you have the UMIK-1 set to an internal DIP switches 18dB gain vs a 12dB gain?
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post #28600 of 28833 Old 01-22-2020, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by WarnerL View Post
@AustinJerry , in your latest REW Getting Started guide, I am wondering how you came up with the suggestions to set the Windows 10 UMIK-1 microphone input level to 9.9dB, Windows 8 UMIK-1 microphone input level to 0dB, and Windows 7 UMIK-1 microphone input level to 5.0dB. I thought originally there were posts recommending to set the input level to Unity Gain which would be exactly 0.0dB? You have that for Windows 8 but not Windows 10 or 7. Why the difference? Also do your input settings recommendations change depending if you have the UMIK-1 set to an internal DIP switches 18dB gain vs a 12dB gain?
The most important information is contained in Note 1: "There is a relationship between the Windows gain setting, and measurement headroom in REW. If you experience any headroom issues, or receive clipping errors, while taking measurements, experiment with Windows gain settings to see if the issue can be resolved." If the microphone setting is too high, you run the risk of running out of headroom and causing clipping. As for the validity of the measurements themselves, the gain setting makes no difference. Pick a gain setting that allows you to measure without clipping (9.9 works for me, with a UMIK-1 with 12dB sensitivity), and when you generate the measurement sweeps, adjust the AVR master volume so that the maximum sweep level is 85-95dB.

I have never used a UMIK-1 with 18dB sensitivity, so cannot comment on the effect on the recommended gain setting. I suggest you experiment to find a gain setting that works well for you.

On a side note, once you settle in with a gain setting, make sure you continue using this gain setting for each REW measurement session, which will ensure consistency from one measurement to the next. I always check the Windows gain setting at the start of each REW session, because my Dirac calibration software sets the mic gain to its maximum setting.
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post #28601 of 28833 Old 01-22-2020, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

On a side note, once you settle in with a gain setting, make sure you continue using this gain setting for each REW measurement session, which will ensure consistency from one measurement to the next. I always check the Windows gain setting at the start of each REW session, because my Dirac calibration software sets the mic gain to its maximum setting.
Never considered this might be happening. Thanks for the heads up!
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post #28602 of 28833 Old 01-22-2020, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lex vs Kingpin View Post

1) Why windows audio/ rew don't differentiate the surround (rear) speakers from top middle speakers (5.1.2 atmos setup)? My connection is OK via HDMI, can hear sound when selected Multi-in and Atmos displays on the receiver when I play netflix atmos content or dolby access demo. But in the speaker configuration (windows audio) and in REW when I test the top middle speakers sound is coming from rear surround speakers (the content plays OK just the speaker test/rew doesnt send signal to top middle speakers)
REW does not have the ability to send a dedicated signal to any overhead speaker or wides if you have them.. And just a reminder, make sure when you are measuring with REW you use STRAIGHT mode or whatever that is called for your AVR and verify all/any upmixers or sound processing is off/bypassed.
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post #28603 of 28833 Old 01-22-2020, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by dryeye View Post
REW does not have the ability to send a dedicated signal to any overhead speaker or wides if you have them.. And just a reminder, make sure when you are measuring with REW you use STRAIGHT mode or whatever that is called for your AVR and verify all/any upmixers or sound processing is off/bypassed.
REW only supports 8 channels....the 7 bed layers and LFE. To test the atmos/height/wide channels you will need to switch wires to one of the bed layers and run a sweep.
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post #28604 of 28833 Old 01-24-2020, 12:18 PM
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I’m kind of stuck with trying to set Rew up.

1) when I do my test sounds it comes out of my laptop not my receiver. I have my HDMI running tommy receiver. This only happens with rew. All other sounds from laptop come out of speakers.

2) I don’t have this mix/meter tab in preferences.



3) I only see 2 speakers to check sound with. Not my full system. 7.2.4


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post #28605 of 28833 Old 01-24-2020, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ncabw View Post
I’m kind of stuck with trying to set Rew up.

1) when I do my test sounds it comes out of my laptop not my receiver. I have my HDMI running tommy receiver. This only happens with rew. All other sounds from laptop come out of speakers.

2) I don’t have this mix/meter tab in preferences.

3) I only see 2 speakers to check sound with. Not my full system. 7.2.4


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Have you followed the setup instructions contained in the REW guide linked in my sig? Specifically, have you installed and configured ASIO4All? The ASIO driver is required to support the HDMI interface.

The REW preferences screen has changed slightly since the last guide update. I have attached a screenshot showing the new tabs, as well as the ASIO driver.
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post #28606 of 28833 Old 01-24-2020, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Have you followed the setup instructions contained in the REW guide linked in my sig? Specifically, have you installed and configured ASIO4All? The ASIO driver is required to support the HDMI interface.



The REW preferences screen has changed slightly since the last guide update. I have attached a screenshot showing the new tabs, as well as the ASIO driver.


Yes I have the manual printed out and followed it.
Here are some more pics. Maybe you can see something





The only other section I might of made a mistake was here. This is my calibration file. When it asks if I have one. I attached the whole file. Is that right?




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post #28607 of 28833 Old 01-24-2020, 01:59 PM
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Yes I have the manual printed out and followed it.

The only other section I might of made a mistake was here. This is my calibration file. When it asks if I have one. I attached the whole file. Is that right?
The red X next to the AMD audio device means ASIO is not recognizing it. Try clicking on the X to see if that does anything. Also, there is an ASIO troubleshooting section. Follow those steps as well. If you can’t get the AMD audio driver recognized, you won’t be able to proceed.

Loading the entire mic calibration file is correct.
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post #28608 of 28833 Old 01-24-2020, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The red X next to the AMD audio device means ASIO is not recognizing it. Try clicking on the X to see if that does anything. Also, there is an ASIO troubleshooting section. Follow those steps as well. If you can’t get the AMD audio driver recognized, you won’t be able to proceed.



Loading the entire mic calibration file is correct.


Ok I get this. I will check out the Asio troubleshooting section.




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post #28609 of 28833 Old 01-24-2020, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The red X next to the AMD audio device means ASIO is not recognizing it. Try clicking on the X to see if that does anything. Also, there is an ASIO troubleshooting section. Follow those steps as well. If you can’t get the AMD audio driver recognized, you won’t be able to proceed.



Loading the entire mic calibration file is correct.


Ok I got Asio to work. But now my measure button is greyed out








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post #28610 of 28833 Old 01-24-2020, 02:32 PM
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Your output is now working properly, but you have no input selected. Click on the input drop-down and select the UMIK-1.
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post #28611 of 28833 Old 01-24-2020, 09:59 PM
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Your output is now working properly, but you have no input selected. Click on the input drop-down and select the UMIK-1.


Ah yes forgot all about that.

Thank you for your help.



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post #28612 of 28833 Old 01-26-2020, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The most important information is contained in Note 1: "There is a relationship between the Windows gain setting, and measurement headroom in REW. If you experience any headroom issues, or receive clipping errors, while taking measurements, experiment with Windows gain settings to see if the issue can be resolved." If the microphone setting is too high, you run the risk of running out of headroom and causing clipping. As for the validity of the measurements themselves, the gain setting makes no difference. Pick a gain setting that allows you to measure without clipping (9.9 works for me, with a UMIK-1 with 12dB sensitivity), and when you generate the measurement sweeps, adjust the AVR master volume so that the maximum sweep level is 85-95dB.
I just started to use REW and I came to this thread on this topic. I was trying to run sweeps to take my sub to compression and my mic runs out of headroom before I reach it. I have the 18dB UMIK-1. I was using the 9.9 gain as suggested. I was going to lower the gain as suggested in note you put here, but wanted to ask in this thread first, which you answered here. My next question now is the highlighted part of your quote, does this mean when I run sweeps for my speakers, I want to run sweeps where the maximum level goes no higher than 95dB? But, if testing to compression I can go higher?

I apologize, this is all new to me.
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post #28613 of 28833 Old 01-26-2020, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by geocab View Post
I just started to use REW and I came to this thread on this topic. I was trying to run sweeps to take my sub to compression and my mic runs out of headroom before I reach it. I have the 18dB UMIK-1. I was using the 9.9 gain as suggested. I was going to lower the gain as suggested in note you put here, but wanted to ask in this thread first, which you answered here. My next question now is the highlighted part of your quote, does this mean when I run sweeps for my speakers, I want to run sweeps where the maximum level goes no higher than 95dB? But, if testing to compression I can go higher?

I apologize, this is all new to me.
The 85-95dB recommendation is for normal measurements. If you are trying to reach compression, nothing wrong with going higher.
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post #28614 of 28833 Old 01-26-2020, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by geocab View Post
I just started to use REW and I came to this thread on this topic. I was trying to run sweeps to take my sub to compression and my mic runs out of headroom before I reach it. I have the 18dB UMIK-1. I was using the 9.9 gain as suggested. I was going to lower the gain as suggested in note you put here, but wanted to ask in this thread first, which you answered here. My next question now is the highlighted part of your quote, does this mean when I run sweeps for my speakers, I want to run sweeps where the maximum level goes no higher than 95dB? But, if testing to compression I can go higher?

I apologize, this is all new to me.
If you're serious about taking sub compression sweeps you'll need to change the UMIK's internal dip switches to bring the mic's gain down so you wont have the mic clipping before you finish the comp. sweeps. It's here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...-umik-1-a.html
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post #28615 of 28833 Old 01-26-2020, 01:49 PM
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I have finished setting up my subs with rew. I’m not looking to see what my front speakers are doing. Here is my graph. Is there anything that jumps out as wrong?


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Here is my sub graph




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post #28616 of 28833 Old 01-26-2020, 02:57 PM
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Taking a photo of the REW screen is not a good way to present your measurements. The small camera icon in the upper left corner of the measurement screen will capture the screen, allow you to save the image to disk, and then you can attach it to a post.

Your measurements are being taken at a low level. Typically, measurements are taken at 85-95dB. And the measurements for the main speakers should be 15Hz to 20,000Hz so that the subs are included. That dip in the mains at 2KHz is not good. And it is difficult to read the photo of the sub measurement.
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post #28617 of 28833 Old 01-26-2020, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Taking a photo of the REW screen is not a good way to present your measurements. The small camera icon in the upper left corner of the measurement screen will capture the screen, allow you to save the image to disk, and then you can attach it to a post.



Your measurements are being taken at a low level. Typically, measurements are taken at 85-95dB. And the measurements for the main speakers should be 15Hz to 20,000Hz so that the subs are included. That dip in the mains at 2KHz is not good. And it is difficult to read the photo of the sub measurement.


Thank you i did see that camera icon after. I will do that for the next post.

I think it’s showing the low level DB because i keep getting error messages when I use the calibrated mic. Sometimes it recognize is it then sometimes it doesn’t. This was that time. I was looking to see how straight a line I could get.

I will change that setting to 15 to 20k. I had my subs plugged in for first couple measurements but I thought it was only suppose to be my front speakers individually.

Does anyone know why I constantly have to restart Rew to get it working. Sometimes I have to restart my laptop. It can take 20 times opening and closing rew to get it working with the correct mic calibration settings. The mini mic.


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post #28618 of 28833 Old 01-26-2020, 04:59 PM
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here is a better pic of my results with the subs on.

also I don't understand the 85db testing. I have me receiver setup at 55 volume like the guide says

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post #28619 of 28833 Old 01-26-2020, 05:09 PM
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I don’t recall anywhere in the guide that recommends setting the AVR master volume at 55. Here is how to set the level:

- Run a test sweep.
- Click on the Spectrogram tab and let the graph generate.
- Notice the vertical bar on the right side of the screen. It shows the max output level reached during the sweep.
- If the max output is lower than 90dB, raise the master volume by the difference between 90 and the max. E.g. if the max is 85, raise MV by 5.
- Run a second test sweep and re-check the Spectrogram. It should now hav 90 as the max.

The screen capture is much better than the photo, thanks.

As for the actual measurement, the boost in the low end is insane, almost 30 dB. Are you a bass-head? Surely the bass must sound over-emphasized. What are you doing to apply that much boost?
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post #28620 of 28833 Old 01-26-2020, 05:48 PM
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I don’t recall anywhere in the guide that recommends setting the AVR master volume at 55. Here is how to set the level:



- Run a test sweep.

- Click on the Spectrogram tab and let the graph generate.

- Notice the vertical bar on the right side of the screen. It shows the max output level reached during the sweep.

- If the max output is lower than 90dB, raise the master volume by the difference between 90 and the max. E.g. if the max is 85, raise MV by 5.

- Run a second test sweep and re-check the Spectrogram. It should now hav 90 as the max.



The screen capture is much better than the photo, thanks.



As for the actual measurement, the boost in the low end is insane, almost 30 dB. Are you a bass-head? Surely the bass must sound over-emphasized. What are you doing to apply that much boost?


Thanks for the information. I will do what you have said.

I’m guessing when I did the bass setup with rew that I did it wrong. I did the same thing. Just put master volume on 55. Then kept turning up my gain on both subs until they read close to 75db. I didn’t do any of the things you mentioned to set my ads up. I did find it odd I had to crank up my bass since I’ve had Audyssey calibrations through your the past year and in every had to increase it until today.


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