Does LFE belong in a stereo downmix? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 96 Old 07-30-2017, 07:23 AM
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post #62 of 96 Old 11-16-2017, 06:34 PM
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I am most likely asking what has already been answered. I used to have a receiver that I think would turn on drc when down mixing DD. I measured the sub output with a spl meter when going from 5.1 to 2.1 and it would drop. Ever since then I have made sure to have the full 5.1 setup.

If I understand correctly these issues are no longer present with DD+ and TrueHD because that information is already coded into the stream and the receiver doesn't have to do downmixing?

For instance with my Roku even if I only have a 2.1 setup I should always let the avr do the decoding with DD+ vs setting it to stereo. I want to make sure I'm still getting the full range of the track should I decide to use less speakers.
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post #63 of 96 Old 11-16-2017, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediSpork View Post
I am most likely asking what has already been answered. I used to have a receiver that I think would turn on drc when down mixing DD. I measured the sub output with a spl meter when going from 5.1 to 2.1 and it would drop. Ever since then I have made sure to have the full 5.1 setup.
As far as I know, most don't do that. It's just certain models that screwed that up.

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Originally Posted by JediSpork View Post
If I understand correctly these issues are no longer present with DD+ and TrueHD because that information is already coded into the stream and the receiver doesn't have to do downmixing?

For instance with my Roku even if I only have a 2.1 setup I should always let the avr do the decoding with DD+ vs setting it to stereo. I want to make sure I'm still getting the full range of the track should I decide to use less speakers.
Yes, always let the AVR do the downmixing. The source format is irrelevant since the downmixing happens after decoding to PCM. So PCM, DD, TrueHD, etc. are all handled the same...or should be!

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post #64 of 96 Old 11-17-2017, 12:28 PM
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I have one or two AVRs that do that. They basically got the +10 dB LFE boost wrong in their implementation so either movies (e.g. 5.1) or stereo (2.x) has the wrong subwoofer level. None of my newer AVRs (bought within the past 5-10 years) have that issue.

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post #65 of 96 Old 11-17-2017, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediSpork View Post
I used to have a receiver that I think would turn on drc when down mixing DD. I measured the sub output with a spl meter when going from 5.1 to 2.1 and it would drop.
There may have indeed been a difference in the amount of bass-managed bass that the sub channel received from those channels set to SMALL in your 5.1 vs. 2.1 setup, but the LFE channel info should have been managed identically. So, if you had set the speakers to LARGE in both the 5.1 and 2.1 setups and measured only the LFE channel info, it should have been the same.

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post #66 of 96 Old 11-30-2017, 12:08 PM
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I was recently playing with my Xbox One audio outputs and my AVR to ensure I was getting the best quality output.

I have a decent stereo system, and do not have surrounds or a sub. I had previously set my Xbox one to output Stereo PCM uncompressed as I thought it was the best output for my system.

After testing with some Dolby audio test files, I realized this setup was removing the LFE and also doing a poor downsample of center channel and surrounds. Center would be mixed to LR at a much lower level than the LR sources, resulting in movies where center channel dialogue would be quiet but LR effects would be incredibly loud.

So I picked up a DD5.1 capable AVR, and set the Xbone to DD5.1. Even though this is lossy compressed (vs uncrompressed stereo PCM), the difference is night and day. The AVR feeds LFE to LR well and the bass in movies and games are now impressive. Center and surround downmix is now at what I feel are appropriate levels.

It's truly upsetting that I can't feed my stereo system with an uncompressed stereo signal and not lose so much in the down mix. I'm not sure why the Xbone and other source devices don't downmix apropriately to stereo.
I feel I had to downgrade to lossy Dolby Digital 5.1 just to have an appropriate mix on a 2 channel setup, but nonetheless the mix improvement outweighs the loss of uncompressed PCM.
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post #67 of 96 Old 01-17-2019, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post
I was recently playing with my Xbox One audio outputs and my AVR to ensure I was getting the best quality output.

I have a decent stereo system, and do not have surrounds or a sub. I had previously set my Xbox one to output Stereo PCM uncompressed as I thought it was the best output for my system.

After testing with some Dolby audio test files, I realized this setup was removing the LFE and also doing a poor downsample of center channel and surrounds. Center would be mixed to LR at a much lower level than the LR sources, resulting in movies where center channel dialogue would be quiet but LR effects would be incredibly loud.

So I picked up a DD5.1 capable AVR, and set the Xbone to DD5.1. Even though this is lossy compressed (vs uncrompressed stereo PCM), the difference is night and day. The AVR feeds LFE to LR well and the bass in movies and games are now impressive. Center and surround downmix is now at what I feel are appropriate levels.

It's truly upsetting that I can't feed my stereo system with an uncompressed stereo signal and not lose so much in the down mix. I'm not sure why the Xbone and other source devices don't downmix apropriately to stereo.
I feel I had to downgrade to lossy Dolby Digital 5.1 just to have an appropriate mix on a 2 channel setup, but nonetheless the mix improvement outweighs the loss of uncompressed PCM.
I went through the same frustration using an xbox one s as a source. I found that it's better to let the AVR handle everything even in a stereo 2.2 system.
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post #68 of 96 Old 01-17-2019, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by obveron View Post
I'm not sure why the Xbone and other source devices don't downmix apropriately to stereo.
It's an old specification that was originally intended to prevent source devices that are connected directly to televisions from sending the LFE channel to the TV where it probably would only create issues for the small speakers (and amplifiers?) that TVs were/are usually equipped with. Even today, the vast majority of source devices for TV and movie playback are still probably connected directly to people's televisions. Those of us who run our audio through some sort of sound system are probably a small subset of overall users.

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post #69 of 96 Old 10-18-2019, 02:35 PM
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So, summing things up, anyone who wants proper dialogue and bass on a stereo system should skip the source downmix and let an avr/processor do it? Ew. That's a hard hit on anyone who uses the same setup for music and movies.
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post #70 of 96 Old 10-24-2019, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by FlavioWolff View Post
So, summing things up, anyone who wants proper dialogue and bass on a stereo system should skip the source downmix and let an avr/processor do it? Ew. That's a hard hit on anyone who uses the same setup for music and movies.
Yes, and it's a shame as the problem is purely software implementation. Since I needed an AVR anyway I just added a center surrounds and ATMOS. Now I'm converted on the benefits of surround for movies. I don't use the AVR at all for music.
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post #71 of 96 Old 01-09-2020, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
This is a safe assumption.

There are simple boxes, like the Gefen Digital Audio Decoder (GTV-DD-2-AA), but I suspect it has the same type of decoding you are trying to avoid (no LFE, DRC on).

An expensive receiver is not needed. Something like the Outlaw 975 will work ($500 from B-stock) as I have confirmed it in that case, but there's a very good chance that a lower cost AVR ($200-$250) will also give you the uncompressed stereo output. The problem is this capability is not described in any product info or manual. The only way to know for sure would be to try it. Could be done at an in-store demo with a set of headphones and some familiar material or a test disc (Like a DVD with THX Optimizer). If you can hear the LFE channel, the downmix is after the DD decoder. Then play a movie with DRC on/off (midnight mode) and confirm it changes the sound.
Hello,
I am back to this forum after a long period without video, with just 2CH audio.
I have just added 870 Sony laser projector for my bi 2-channel system.
The 2ch system uses 30Hz 105dB bass horns.

This system makes good low bass but without dedicated subwoofer channel. It it made only for a pure 2-channel source, with a single spdif 192/24 input signal. Optimised for music and now also doing for video.

Currently I am using the coax output of my Zappiti Audiocom player in pcm 2ch mode. A film like Appolo13 shows poor low bass compared to what it should have.
I tried reading the same film with Jrivier installed in a computer decoding the video, still with 2-ch downmix and now the sub bass is very good.
It means that LFE subwoofer channel is ignored in the Zappiti downmix, but that Jriver includes it in their downmix.
I would prefer to keep the Zappiti for the video quality because my computer is not fully HDR compatible.

You recommended outlawaudio.com 975, that was a long time ago.
What other receiver are recommended today?
For my application it needs to downmix to 2ch with LFE, without dynamic compression, and with coax spdif output.

Thank you!
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post #72 of 96 Old 01-09-2020, 08:00 AM
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The Outlaw 975 a no spdif coax outputs, only analog...
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post #73 of 96 Old 01-09-2020, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincent_brient View Post
For my application it needs to downmix to 2ch with LFE, without dynamic compression, and with coax spdif output.
No such animal AFAIK.
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post #74 of 96 Old 01-09-2020, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
No such animal AFAIK.
So Roger, as our Dolby expert, I just want to confirm I am understanding the state of affairs. If one only owns just a 2ch. stereo setup but no Dolby Digital decoding at all, then they are locked out of hearing the LFE channel content of both movies or TV shows no matter what they do. The sat/cable boxes and disc players simply discard it. Yes?

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post #75 of 96 Old 01-09-2020, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
So Roger, as our Dolby expert, I just want to confirm I am understanding the state of affairs. If one only owns just a 2ch. stereo setup but no Dolby Digital decoding at all, then they are locked out of hearing the LFE channel content of both movies or TV shows no matter what they do. The sat/cable boxes and disc players simply discard it. Yes?
When the source program is 5.1, yes, the LFE is gone. And DRC is applied.

But nowadays the streaming services might have stereo, 5.1 and immersive mixes for a given program. The stereo mix is not just the same downmix you'd get from a STB decoding a 5.1 signal. It was purpose made for the stereo listener. Does it have LFE? I would expect there would be vestiges of it, but that is down to the practices of the streaming service. And it will not use the same DRC as the DD bitstream, but of course some peak protection is always in place when downmixing is done in a studio.

I'd venture to say the best stereo sound one can get directly from video content will be that from a streaming service like Netflix.

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post #76 of 96 Old 01-10-2020, 01:42 AM
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So there is at least one solution, read the film using the software Jriver running on a computer. It handles very well the downmixing with LFE.
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post #77 of 96 Old 01-10-2020, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by vincent_brient View Post
So there is at least one solution, read the film using the software Jriver running on a computer. It handles very well the downmixing with LFE.
Does it give you the option to keep it or discard it at your choice? And how is it exactly you know it is doesn't discard it and not tell the user it has done so?
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post #78 of 96 Old 01-10-2020, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Does it give you the option to keep it or discard it at your choice? And how is it exactly you know it is doesn't discard it and not tell the user it has done so?
I listen to it and it had a much better low bass, a really big difference on Apollo13 rocket launch.
Then I checked the Jriver setting menu and saw that you can add the LFE, you can choose the filter frequency (120Hz by default before adding it to left and right channel) or you can discard the LFE.
Just perfect, as long as you can use Jriver.
I use USB as stereo 192/24max output.
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post #79 of 96 Old 01-10-2020, 10:08 AM
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Strange that only Jriver has understood and solved the problem. So many people use a stereo system for home-cinema.
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post #80 of 96 Old 01-10-2020, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincent_brient View Post
I listen to it and it had a much better low bass, a really big difference on Apollo13 rocket launch.
Then I checked the Jriver setting menu and saw that you can add the LFE, you can choose the filter frequency (120Hz by default before adding it to left and right channel) or you can discard the LFE.
Just perfect, as long as you can use Jriver.
I use USB as stereo 192/24max output.
Thank you for your response. Does Jriver additionally have the means to let people with the appropriate extra gear (including center/surround speakers and a sub) to listen to 5.1 content in 5.1? Or is 2ch out all it can do?
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post #81 of 96 Old 01-10-2020, 10:49 AM
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I noticed this in my system when I was doing some testing.

I can understand why there is no LFE in a 2 channel downmix, but why is there no LFE in a 2.1 setup?

To clarify, I have a Denon X4200W. Normally I have it setup at 5.1.2. However, I set all the other channels to "none" leaving only the 2 fronts and my LFE enabled so a 2.1 system.

I noticed that when I played media such as the Dolby TrueHD 7.1 surround test that I get no output anywhere when the video is playing the LFE channel. If I for example turn on my center speaker (for a 3.1 system) or turn on my surrounds (for a 4.1 system), then suddenly the LFE test channel plays like normal.

So why is the LFE ignored on a 2.1 setup but not ignored on a 3.1 setup?

If it matters, I have my speakers set to small and crossover at 80Hz. But I don't think it matters. I tried setting my fronts to large, and then (when my system is set to 2.1) my subwoofer does nothing in any TrueHD content because its not playing the LFE and now it's not playing any sub-crossover content. When my system is set to 2.1 the subwoofer only plays when I set my speakers to small, and still none of what it plays is from the LFE channel.
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post #82 of 96 Old 01-10-2020, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Thank you for your response. Does Jriver additionally have the means to let people with the appropriate extra gear (including center/surround speakers and a sub) to listen to 5.1 content in 5.1? Or is 2ch out all it can do?
I am using it only for stereo, but I think that it can do multi-channel as well.
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post #83 of 96 Old 01-10-2020, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
I noticed this in my system when I was doing some testing.

I can understand why there is no LFE in a 2 channel downmix, but why is there no LFE in a 2.1 setup?

To clarify, I have a Denon X4200W. Normally I have it setup at 5.1.2. However, I set all the other channels to "none" leaving only the 2 fronts and my LFE enabled so a 2.1 system.

I noticed that when I played media such as the Dolby TrueHD 7.1 surround test that I get no output anywhere when the video is playing the LFE channel. If I for example turn on my center speaker (for a 3.1 system) or turn on my surrounds (for a 4.1 system), then suddenly the LFE test channel plays like normal.

So why is the LFE ignored on a 2.1 setup but not ignored on a 3.1 setup?

If it matters, I have my speakers set to small and crossover at 80Hz. But I don't think it matters. I tried setting my fronts to large, and then (when my system is set to 2.1) my subwoofer does nothing in any TrueHD content because its not playing the LFE and now it's not playing any sub-crossover content. When my system is set to 2.1 the subwoofer only plays when I set my speakers to small, and still none of what it plays is from the LFE channel.
Wow. Very interesting.

Not sure if Denon has this but in one of my Yamahas, deep in a menu, there is an option "Do you want 2ch incoming content to undergo digital signal processing (and I assume sub derivation from the 2.0 signal is a part of what they mean), or do you want 2ch content to be entirely unprocessed, sort of like 'Auto Pure Direct' when a 2ch signal is detected"?
Clever.
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post #84 of 96 Old 01-10-2020, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by vincent_brient View Post
I am using it only for stereo, but I think that it can do multi-channel as well.
If it can do 5.1 then it isn't really a strictly stereo only device and likely is paying licensing money for Dolby Digital decoding to Dolby. AVRs similarly do this and as I understand it they do have the capability of redirecting the LFE content to the large front speakers for people with no subs. [Am I right, @Roger Dressler ?] The topic of interest to me is "Are stereo only gear users locked out of every hearing the LFE of 5.1 content (and also apparently experiencing the full dynamic range) of movies and TV shows from broadcast, cable, satellite, and optical disc formats?" Roger is saying that they are locked out.

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post #85 of 96 Old 01-10-2020, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Wow. Very interesting.

Not sure if Denon has this but in one of my Yamahas, deep in a menu, there is an option "Do you want 2ch incoming content to undergo digital signal processing (and I assume sub derivation from the 2.0 signal is a part of what they mean), or do you want 2ch content to be entirely unprocessed, sort of like 'Auto Pure Direct' when a 2ch signal is detected"?
Clever.
I have seen his behavior on 3 generations of Denon (2112CI, 4200W, and 3500H).

What is also interesting is that this behavior does not happen on regular Dolby Digital 5.1 content or DTS content, only TrueHD and Atmos.

I have to assume that it has something to do with how the TrueHD format works. All the sound from all 7 channels is inherently stored in the first 2 waveforms, but I guess the LFE channel content isn't. But still, why not play the LFE channel when a sub is present in a 2.1.

I have been through the Denon menus over and over but have seen no setting that would change this behavior. I have no idea how it works on any other AVR brands though.

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post #86 of 96 Old 01-10-2020, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincent_brient View Post
So there is at least one solution, read the film using the software Jriver running on a computer. It handles very well the downmixing with LFE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vincent_brient View Post
Strange that only Jriver has understood and solved the problem.

There are probably several other software "solutions".

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post #87 of 96 Old 01-10-2020, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
I noticed this in my system when I was doing some testing.

I can understand why there is no LFE in a 2 channel downmix, but why is there no LFE in a 2.1 setup?

To clarify, I have a Denon X4200W. Normally I have it setup at 5.1.2. However, I set all the other channels to "none" leaving only the 2 fronts and my LFE enabled so a 2.1 system.

I noticed that when I played media such as the Dolby TrueHD 7.1 surround test that I get no output anywhere when the video is playing the LFE channel. If I for example turn on my center speaker (for a 3.1 system) or turn on my surrounds (for a 4.1 system), then suddenly the LFE test channel plays like normal.

So why is the LFE ignored on a 2.1 setup but not ignored on a 3.1 setup?

If it matters, I have my speakers set to small and crossover at 80Hz. But I don't think it matters. I tried setting my fronts to large, and then (when my system is set to 2.1) my subwoofer does nothing in any TrueHD content because its not playing the LFE and now it's not playing any sub-crossover content. When my system is set to 2.1 the subwoofer only plays when I set my speakers to small, and still none of what it plays is from the LFE channel.

Other than setting the speakers to LARGE when configured as having a subwoofer connected, then physically disconnecting the speakers and listening for subwoofer output with multichannel TrueHD content playback, how are you confirming this, exactly? In other words, do you have a mutlichannel TrueHD source that has content encoded in the LFE channel and only the LFE channel? Because confirming this behavior with the speakers set to SMALL, by ear, is problematic.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."

Last edited by sivadselim; 01-10-2020 at 03:10 PM.
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post #88 of 96 Old 01-10-2020, 03:09 PM
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Other than setting the speakers to LARGE when configured as having a subwoofer connected, then physically disconnecting the speakers and listening for subwoofer output with multichannel TrueHD content playback, how are you confirming this, exactly? In other words, do you have a mutlichannel TrueHD source that has content encoded in the LFE channel and only the LFE channel?
Yes, I tried mentioning that. A Dolby TrueHD 7.1 test file. You know the ones that play white noise from each channel one after another including the LFE channel.

When it gets to the LFE channel I hear nothing from any of the 2.1 speakers (whether they are set to large or small). But when I turn on my center or surrounds, then I hear the LFE channel from my subwoofer only.

https://www.demolandia.net/cinema/do...hd/page-8.html


But after noticing it with those test files, I found bass heavy movie scenes, and there is a noticeable difference in the subwoofer activity whether I turn on/off the center channel. It's clear the LFE channel is missing as there are bass effects that are missing when I have only the fronts and sub enabled.

Last edited by SirMaster; 01-10-2020 at 03:13 PM.
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post #89 of 96 Old 01-10-2020, 03:14 PM
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Yes, I tried mentioning that. A Dolby TrueHD 7.1 test file. You know the ones that play white noise from each channel one after another including the LFE channel.

When it gets to the LFE channel I hear nothing from any of the 2.1 speakers (whether they are set to large or small). But when I turn on my center or surrounds, then I hear the LFE channel from my subwoofer only.

https://www.demolandia.net/cinema/do...hd/page-8.html

What happens when you configure the AVR for 2.1 playback (sub=yes) with LARGE fronts, then physically disconnect the front speakers, and playback an actual effects-laden TrueHD movie source? Same thing? Silence?

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post #90 of 96 Old 01-10-2020, 03:16 PM
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What happens when you configure the AVR for 2.1 playback (sub=yes) with LARGE fronts, then physically disconnect the front speakers, and playback an actual effects-laden TrueHD movie source? Same thing? Silence?
Correct, it's silence from the sub when I configure the processor as 2.1 and set the fronts as LARGE.

Only for TrueHD/Atmos. The LFE track always plays for DD and DTS signals.

I had a friend confirm this on his own on his Denon as well.
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