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REVIEW INCL. Just got monoprice speaker wire in.....why do you guys reccomend this so much?

32K views 371 replies 56 participants last post by  CharlesJ 
#1 ·

so I posted a thread about building a cheap system here:

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1519352/threw-together-this-cheapo-system-what-do-you-guys-think

 

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upon heavy recommendation from the forum, and nearly half of the forum viewing that monoprice is the best audio cable on the market for the best price.

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1518761/whats-your-favorite-cable-manufacturer-poll

 

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with that said, I took the plunge and ordered some of it. and I went to radio shack to buy AUVIO to decided what I wanted to run.

 

first impressions of mono-price cable. along with a comparison to what is available to me locally.

 

1: dirty, when I opened the box, the spool looked used, beaten to hell and wrapped in what looked to be used/recycled sandwhich wrap.

it's not a big deal, so I took the cable off of the melting card board spool and discarded it. smelled like cheap china product you get on ebay, which nobody tells newbies for some reason.

 

I ordered 50 feet no logo, I got 50 feet no logo so that's a plus. radioshack's 25 foot spool only had about 20 feet in it.

 

2: it's thinner, and the strands are wrapped in a sloppier manner than the AUVIO cable. Radioshacks cable looks good, looks expensive, looks quality like what you would expect a "high end" speaker system to use.  Mono-price stuff SHOULD BE SLEEVED/COVERED/BOOTED in my opinion

 

3: it's closer to radio-shack's 14 gauge cable than the 12 gauge, monoprice claims that the jacketing is thicker on the radioshack stuff hence the thickness difference, not true, I striped the jacketing off to get a banana plug on it, and there is more copper on the radio shack AUVIO 12 gauge.

 

jacketing quality is poor, takes 1-4 strands when you strip it no matter how great your stripper is. auvio cable is easier to strip, strips kind of like Monster cable i had in my boat/car 10 years ago, or like the great speaker cable that pioneer gave us on my dad's 90's 5.1 DD theater system. 

 

the fittings from monoprice are harder to use than the banana plugs I picked up at radio-shack as well (however there is a $15 price difference PER SET, so pick your poison there, I just dealt with the so-so plugs at the speakers and sub, but I sprung for the higher end plugs at the amp end due to it being the expensive part of the system)

 

ending notes: I would NOT recommend this cable for someone who will have speakers in a visible location. but If it is used in a manner where you can see very little of it, or if you plan on sleeving it, it works fine.

 

monoprice 12 gauge cable is low end, cheap cable made thicker, if you take anything from this review, buyer beware, this brand is hyped because ......i don't know................it looks nearly identical to the low end RCA brand speaker wire sold at Walmart, just about 3 times as thick.

 

 

 



 



 



 

 
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#228 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/210#post_24495622



Ummm, because you started the thread????

Sounds like you're done with it though
you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel for insults/excuses to hide the thread so your brand gets more income aren't you?
 
#229 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Skubinski  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/210#post_24475731

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/150#post_24465145


As said the timing difference is not relevant but you if the difference in length is over 50 feet, you may have some level drop if the wire gauge is marginal. But then the balance control can easily fix that too.

The balance control trick would work only if the load was purely resistive.

But as Glimiie said, the balance control would only be needed if the wire sizing were marginal in the first place. Given the pricing and availability of either pseudo (undersized) or real (not undersized) wire, there's no reason to be marginal in the first place.


The inflated pricing of even mid-end pseudo high end wire (e.g most Monster Cable) is more likely to lead to the use of undersized wire.


All this fretting about wire that is packaged as 12 gauge but is really 13 gauge pales in comparison to much high end speaker cable whose packaging hides the wire's approximate gauge, and/or downsizes it to 16 or 18 gauge for even more money per foot.
 
#233 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/210#post_24500246


Sorry having to deal with a labor dispute. Folks doing the work are complaining that working without pay is unfair. I am trying to convince them otherwise....
I thought you (personally) were performing the test/comparisons.


Anyway, if true, I agree with the "folks". They should get compensated for your "side interests".
 
#234 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/210#post_24501983


I thought you (personally) were performing the test/comparisons.
I am. I have to squeeze the testing between other things I have to get done.


Meanwhile, I bought another sample of 12 gauge wire from Best Buy.
 
#240 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/210#post_24503267


Wait, you don't have time to test what you have, but you bought more to test?

I thought that the intention was to "prove" Monoprice 12AWG is not 12AWG.

With the proper equipment and tools, that should have been easily accomplished once Amirm had the wire. Now it's turned into.......... dodgeball.


Test/evaluate the Monoprice wire and provide the results. Anything else is good info after the fact.


Git-R-Done!
 
#241 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/210#post_24503528


I thought that the intention was to "prove" Monoprice 12AWG is not 12AWG.
That would presuppose an outcome and corrupt the experiment. But yes, the original purpose was to compare the two cables that OP mentioned. But then this was suggested:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...-guys-reccomend-this-so-much/60#post_24444207


If someone's going to do this, they need to do it right. First, you need multiple samples. The fact that you've got a foot of AWG 12 that measures like AWG 13 doesn't prove anything except you got a bad sample. Second, you need to compare it to others in the industry: Lowes, HD, BJC, Belden, whatever Parts Express sells. "Everybody does it" is a weak defense, but it's a defense.

So the insanity set in to actually go and buy a number of cables to see if there is a practice of under delivering, how common that is.
Quote:
With the proper equipment and tools, that should have been easily accomplished once Amirm had the wire. Now it's turned into.......... dodgeball.
Well, you or anyone else can go and do the test if you want it done differently. I want to make sure the results are repeatable and as defensible as they can be. There are a lot of barriers here which I won't go into here but will when I publish my report. I have run multiple tests already, refining the methodology due to these factors. I am going to re-run the tests again in a new way as to minimize the error and if that works, then I will be ready to post them.
 
#244 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/240#post_24505577


Testing milli-ohm resistance accurately, precisely, and with good repeatability is a daunting task. I can wait, especially considering the pay involved...


The key to this sort of measurement is using a 4 terminal measurement technique which I believe you mentioned a few days ago.


Just to clarify for other readers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-terminal_sensing




As the picture shows, current is applied to to the test jig at the two points most distant from the device under test ( A & D) , and the quantity measured (usually voltage) is measured at the two near points (B & C). The device being tested is R.


The current used in the test is supplied by stable voltage source E and measured with voltage measurement device V. Resistor Rl is used to control the current flowing through the device under test R.


There are usually some spurious voltages assocated with the contact between the current source and the device under test at A and D, but since they are outside the measurement loop B & C they do not enter the actual data that is measured with measurement device V.
 
#245 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/240#post_24505577


Testing milli-ohm resistance accurately, precisely, and with good repeatability is a daunting task. I can wait, especially considering the pay involved...

I use a Megger DLRO unit to perform contact resistance measurements on electrical protective equipment (Circuit breakers, disconnects, etc.). Whether using the 10A or 100A version of these devices, the contact resistance measurements can be accurate to a few micro-ohms with a calibrated instrument. The problem here is how do you take the measurement without adding a substantial amount of resistance by installing connectors at the wire ends for testing purposes. The mechanical interface of the connector can add resistance magnitudes close to the wire measurement.
 
#246 ·
I am painfully familiar with four-point Kelvin and micro-xxx (ohm, volt, amp, etc.) measurements. As has been said connection to the wires is always an issue. In Arny's picture the nodes at B and C are critical; any displacement of force and sense probe points can lead to errors. And of course the run from those nodes to the actual DUT (device under test) is not compensated. The other issue I have run into is noise that can corrupt the readings. Last time I measured ultra-low things (admittedly worse than this) I was in a screen room or built a special screen box to help isolate the fixture. I was using some older test gear, a leaf fA meter for some current measurements, and an Agilent DMM (3458A) for voltage and resistance, taking advantage of its four-point measurement and extensive processing features to reduce the impact of noise. I am sure Amir is using Kelvin probing but it is still non-trivial. I am sure there are newer, easier ways now; that was about 3 or 4 years ago. Or maybe I am just stupid, hard to tell sometimes. Measuring wires, at least at DC, is not something I have often done. My experience is based upon components (not audio, though most had to go to DC).
 
#247 ·
Any resistance added by connecting the measuring leads at B and C is insignificant in comparison to the voltmeters input impedance.


The wire under test can also be soldered together at the far end giving twice the length to be measured. (Don't know if this is already taken care of.)
 
#248 ·
The concern is if force and sense contacts at B and C are not at the same point (so sense and force placement are not identical). We have customers putting the sense connection in the wrong place all the time then wondering why the voltage is off... I agree it is a minor concern for this particular case.


Not sure the input impedance of Amir's setup. I think the 3458A's DC input is very high, >10 G ohms, but 10 M ohms is not uncommon for run-of-the-mill meters. Neither is likely to be a significant error source.


In any event I'll bow to you experts.
 
#249 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/240#post_24506777


Any resistance added by connecting the measuring leads at B and C is insignificant in comparison to the voltmeters input impedance.

Agreed and that is the beauty of the system.




The meter that is connected between B & C can easily cause an additional current drain that is actually down, down, down in the microamp range if you use a DVM, while the wire under test may be carrying a test current that is involves thousands of amperes of electrical current.


I usually use one of my 250 watt 8 ohm non-inductive low temperature coefficient bench test resistors for Rl. Any old DC power supply or low powered audio power amp can drive the test jig up to 1 amp or more test current.


The inaccuracy in the measurement is reduced by the ratio between the test current and the metering current, a ratio that can easily be a million to one. Any contact resistances at B & C have effects that are proportionately reduced.
Quote:
The wire under test can also be soldered together at the far end giving twice the length to be measured. (Don't know if this is already taken care of.)

Good point. For the purposes of testing all of the connections can be soldered for even greater accuracy and stability.
 
#250 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/240#post_24506832


The concern is if force and sense contacts at B and C are not at the same point (so sense and force placement are not identical). We have customers putting the sense connection in the wrong place all the time then wondering why the voltage is off... I agree it is a minor concern for this particular case.


Not sure the input impedance of Amir's setup. I think the 3458A's DC input is very high, >10 G ohms, but 10 M ohms is not uncommon for run-of-the-mill meters. Neither is likely to be a significant error source.


In any event I'll bow to you experts.
Your expertise is much appreciated Don
. You are right on all points. I have a meter that has a dedicated milliohm measurement. It is not a normal meter with four probes. The standard meters supply very small current and rely on very high accuracy A/D converters to show milliohms. My meter uses 200X more current so it creates a much more reliable situation where we are not relying on very small signals. But because it can measure down to 0.1 milliohms (0.00001 ohm), it can obviously measure many things including the resistance between its probes and wire. After all, one of the uses of such a meter is to measure such connections. There are also stability issues over time and from time to time. So variations are there and cannot be eliminated in such ad-hoc testing. The theoretical discussions around 4-probe/Kelvin measurements are just that: theoretical. Practical devices don't work in idealistic manners. And at any rate, I am utilizing that system and problems remain.


That said, I think I have useful data out of the tests that I ran last night. At least good enough to convey some needed data to the conversation. I will write up the description and post it soon.
 
#251 ·
Thanks Amir.


I'd forgotten about the high-current systems, not something I have used much. A good way to gain range and precision when testing big wires or power contacts; not so good for GHz semiconductors...
I could not use amps, let alone 10's or 100's of amps. Most measurements were at mA currents. Different situation.


At micro-ohm levels temperature variation is a significant concern, at least when I last did something like this. Wire R tempcos are large... And oxidation was a major PITA. We chem-cleaned and measured in a dry nitrogen environmental chamber, not a complete panacea but helped a lot. Not something most hobbyists have sitting around...



Picky typo: 0.1 m-ohm = 0.0001 ohms (think you added a zero).


This strikes me as the type of thing jneutron would love.


Whatever - Don


p.s. For the stuff I was doing soldering was not an option for a variety of reasons (among them unknown solder connection impedance and variation, contamination, and just no good way to solder to the DUT). Might be a reasonable thing to try here, except it seems like you already have enough range and resolution for your wires (?)
 
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