REVIEW INCL. Just got monoprice speaker wire in.....why do you guys reccomend this so much? - Page 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #271 of 372 Old 03-22-2014, 04:42 PM
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I find it odd that the Belden wire tests nearly 1/3 lower in resistance that is claimed for it. The claimed resistance is essentially standard for 12 AWG wire. I can understand a reputable brand testing a little better because the target size has to be a little bigger to ensure that normal manufacturing variability does not result in a substandard wire, but that much bigger doesn't make sense. I think there are some problems with how it was measured. That said, assuming the testing was consistent, I think the results are meaningful, particularly the ones that are well above standard.

There is more going on with the Fry's and Best Buy wire than being aluminum. The difference in conductivity between copper and aluminum doesn't account for the difference. The cross-sectional area of the wire must be smaller, too, or they are using some weird alloy. This is not a problem just with these two retailers. It is a problem at Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart, etc. If the label on the spool doesn't say copper, it probably isn't. Beware of familiar consumer brands like RCA, GE. When it comes to speaker wire, they aren't the same brands your father knew.

Kudos, Amir.
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post #272 of 372 Old 03-22-2014, 05:08 PM
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Perhaps a better reference would be a piece of solid core AWG12 installation wire. No guessing at wire fill % for the stranded wire.

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post #273 of 372 Old 03-22-2014, 05:36 PM
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I would guess there is less variability in a solid wire than stranded. But there is really no need for a reference wire. The resistivity, cross-sectional area, etc. of 12 AWG copper wire is well established in ASTM publications. All we need to do is compare observed results to the standard.
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post #274 of 372 Old 03-22-2014, 06:11 PM
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Thanks for the effort and expense on this exercise, however I agree with above two posts that Belden should not be the reference "baseline". It would be nice if you add AWG 12 solid copper as reference standard and repost the results, Should be easy to do at this point.

Furthermore, I am curious as to why you are using CL3 rated wire in these results vs. non CL3 rated. I think that could also skew results. Should all be non-PVC jacketed non-CL3 rated wire in my opinion. CL3 never entered the equation until you brought up the Belden 5000UP reference.

Lastly, why did you choose Belden 5000UP (advertised DCR of 1.56) vs. their 5000UE which has 1.6 DCR?

5000UP
5000UE

Edit: Adding to my point on CL rated vs non, Monoprice 12 Gauge non CL rated wire has resistance of .0072 ohms/meter for standard 12 gauge vs. .0054 for CL2 rated.
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post #275 of 372 Old 03-22-2014, 06:15 PM
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Well, I'm glad that's completely, 100% settled.

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post #276 of 372 Old 03-22-2014, 07:57 PM
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We are talking advertised gauge size, not plenum/etc. rating. Gauge is gauge, assuming we're talking AWG. CLx doesn't matter for the question(s) being answered.

And hey, the much more expensive Belden cable I use/mentioned is rated as 1.6 DCR too. Maybe they rounded. smile.gif
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post #277 of 372 Old 03-22-2014, 10:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post

Thanks for the effort and expense on this exercise, however I agree with above two posts that Belden should not be the reference "baseline". It would be nice if you add AWG 12 solid copper as reference standard and repost the results, Should be easy to do at this point.
Sure. I think I have some solid electrical wire I can test and report back. Not home right now so it won't be for a few days.
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Furthermore, I am curious as to why you are using CL3 rated wire in these results vs. non CL3 rated. I think that could also skew results. Should all be non-PVC jacketed non-CL3 rated wire in my opinion. CL3 never entered the equation until you brought up the Belden 5000UP reference.
On the first, it just was what I had on hand. Thought the more samples the better. On the Belden, that was because of this thread. If you look early on I picked the first Belden speaker wire that popped up in the search. Since we had done our analysis in this thread based on that, i thought it was good to also test that.

Initially I was just going to test OP's cables which were RadioShack and Monoprice. So the rest of the additions were rather ad-hoc. I am hoping others provide whatever samples they want me to test. I have way too much speaker wire on my hand to buy more smile.gif.
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post #278 of 372 Old 03-22-2014, 10:04 PM
 
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Well, I'm glad that's completely, 100% settled.

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Hey, you owe me $200+ for proving your points. biggrin.gif
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post #279 of 372 Old 03-22-2014, 10:09 PM
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Nice job, Amir. And the responses show why I don't bother to even try to post measurements here.

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post #280 of 372 Old 03-23-2014, 12:08 AM
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post #281 of 372 Old 03-23-2014, 08:28 AM
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It would be great if you could also could do a listening test wink.gif
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post #282 of 372 Old 03-23-2014, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lynchking View Post

monoprice stuff rots in the closet and I have the auvio hooked up

Why not just toss the MP, or give it to Goodwill, etc.? It's not very good stuff, I agree. It turns green, and the insulation does not survive in high heat/humidity applications such as cars. Monoprice's "in wall" wire is just fine, but I don't like the zip cord at all.


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***The coat hanger actually went past the bottom of the graph so whatever story there is on how it sounds is quite suspect.

Careful. You've taken measurements but haven't done any listening tests. All that can be said is that they measure differently, not that they sound different. Chances are much more likely that, for a run the length of a coat hanger, anything will do from an audibility standpoint.

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post #283 of 372 Old 03-23-2014, 05:57 PM
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I spent more on my in wall speaker cable not for a audible reasons, but for durability. As stated above, I did not want my wire turning green or have the insulation breaking down. It gets dam hot in my attic.

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post #284 of 372 Old 03-23-2014, 08:25 PM
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I hope nobody's using the monoprice zip-cord for in-wall installations! It's not rated for that.

FWIW, stuff I currently use in for my in-wall speakers from Carol. I don't remember the model number but it has thin insulation, a tight jacket, a slight twist, and a CL3P in-wall rating. It was a bit more than $100 for a 250' 12/2 roll. One always underestimates how much wire one needs for a multichannel system, especially if it has 7 or more speakers and 3 or more subs with centrally-located amplification for all of them. So often s 250' roll is a prudent buy.

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post #285 of 372 Old 03-26-2014, 04:02 PM
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Hey, you owe me $200+ for proving your points. biggrin.gif

The check is in the mail.
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post #286 of 372 Old 08-21-2014, 01:24 PM
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I will send you my 2001 vintage Home Depot "green wire", and some "good" home depot wire also
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...l#post26761825
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Mike, if you want to send the wire to me (at least 4 feet of it), I will go ahead and measure it and compare it to other wires I recently tested. There were some real dogs in my testing as indicated by the negative orange bars from big box stores:



I could not find any 12 gauge speaker wire at Home Depot for this testing.
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post #287 of 372 Old 08-21-2014, 02:39 PM
 
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Great. I will have to put my fixture together to test this but it is worth getting some data on "green wires."
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post #288 of 372 Old 08-21-2014, 05:50 PM
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For how an EE did DIY low resistance measurements see photos 19, 20 & 21.

http://www.beta-a2.com/EE-photos.html

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post #289 of 372 Old 08-21-2014, 06:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
For how an EE did DIY low resistance measurements see photos 19, 20 & 21.

http://www.beta-a2.com/EE-photos.html
There are countless DIY schemes on the net. The reason for them is that a milliohm meter like I have, is a very specialized tool and unless your job depends on small measurements, you are not going to go and get one.

His method is the same one I used by the way (which is industry standard). It is a Kelvin measurement system which I described in my test notes. The difference is that my meter implements it and hence, doesn't require any math to figure out the wire resistance. The math is trivial but when you are doing a lot of experimentation, it becomes a bit tedious.

Also, picture 19 simply shows a four pin resistor which makes measuring its small resistance easier. It has nothing to do with measuring wires.
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post #290 of 372 Old 08-21-2014, 08:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
For how an EE did DIY low resistance measurements see photos 19, 20 & 21.
Taking low resistance measurements is easy, you just use a meter capable of doing so. Mine is accurate to .001 ohms, and to be sure of an accurate result you calibrate it to account for the resistance of the test leads. Rocket science it ain't.
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post #291 of 372 Old 08-22-2014, 06:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
For how an EE did DIY low resistance measurements see photos 19, 20 & 21.

http://www.beta-a2.com/EE-photos.html

Yup.

The key to the Kelvin type measurement is injecting the test current by attachment points that are separate from the attachment points used to measure the voltage drop. The measurement points need to be inside the the injection points.
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post #292 of 372 Old 08-22-2014, 07:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Yup.

The key to the Kelvin type measurement is injecting the test current by attachment points that are separate from the attachment points used to measure the voltage drop. The measurement points need to be inside the the injection points.
Good morning Arny.

Have you ever done this kind of measurement Arny? If so, can you please post some of the results and how you ascertained your results were accurate?
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post #293 of 372 Old 08-22-2014, 08:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Taking low resistance measurements is easy, you just use a meter capable of doing so. Mine is accurate to .001 ohms, and to be sure of an accurate result you calibrate it to account for the resistance of the test leads. Rocket science it ain't.
It is not rocket science but I suspect you are confusing accuracy with resolution. I can have a meter that is accurate to 1 ohm and then keep adding more decimal points to its display. The meter will then happily show the fraction of ohms but they are random numbers and not accurate. I have not increased the accuracy by adding more decimal places (i.e. resolution).

Measuring low resistance values accurately is quite challenging. Just how you twist the strands in the wire can make a difference. And of course clamping pressure, and many other factors come into play.

Go ahead and try to measure the lead resistance. You will not get a stable value to subtract. Nor will that be the actual value when you are using the leads to measure small resistance. Even with a four wire meter these factors remain to some extent.

Even with my specialized meter, I had to settle to results that were comparable between one wire vs another as opposed to assuming that the number itself is accurate.

I would love to see others try and post such results if you think it is easy. We could then have a lot more data than I collected.
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post #294 of 372 Old 08-22-2014, 08:16 AM
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As a side note, somebody at Audioholics did some measuring on cables in the past

Speaker Cable Faceoff

Links are a bit jumbled...

I'll be back later...


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post #295 of 372 Old 09-16-2014, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Great. I will have to put my fixture together to test this but it is worth getting some data on "green wires."
I've got a 4 ft 6" section cut and sitting by me, PM me your address and I'll send it to you.
This is the "green" Home depot 12 gage wire.
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post #296 of 372 Old 09-16-2014, 02:45 PM
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This is like having a parent in hospice care.
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post #297 of 372 Old 09-16-2014, 04:43 PM
 
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This is like having a parent in hospice care.
How so?
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Question

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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
It is not rocket science but I suspect you are confusing accuracy with resolution. I can have a meter that is accurate to 1 ohm and then keep adding more decimal points to its display. The meter will then happily show the fraction of ohms but they are random numbers and not accurate. I have not increased the accuracy by adding more decimal places (i.e. resolution).

Measuring low resistance values accurately is quite challenging. Just how you twist the strands in the wire can make a difference. And of course clamping pressure, and many other factors come into play.

Go ahead and try to measure the lead resistance. You will not get a stable value to subtract. Nor will that be the actual value when you are using the leads to measure small resistance. Even with a four wire meter these factors remain to some extent.

Even with my specialized meter, I had to settle to results that were comparable between one wire vs another as opposed to assuming that the number itself is accurate.

I would love to see others try and post such results if you think it is easy. We could then have a lot more data than I collected.
I am interested in this exercise; however, you are talking about DC resistance - or am I incorrect?
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post #299 of 372 Old 09-16-2014, 08:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garidy View Post
I am interested in this exercise; however, you are talking about DC resistance - or am I incorrect?
You are correct. I measured other params in my original work but the focus was "truth in advertising" as to whether the rated gauge of the wire was what we expect "12 gauge" to be. For that, DCR metric was used.
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post #300 of 372 Old 09-18-2014, 06:40 AM
 
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Exclamation Any input is welcome...

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
You are correct. I measured other params in my original work but the focus was "truth in advertising" as to whether the rated gauge of the wire was what we expect "12 gauge" to be. For that, DCR metric was used.

Thanks' for thinking to cite your context...

I would be interested in modifying the context and approach just a few degrees.

I would like to select 3 perhaps 4 brands of cable, of the same posted gauging, and measure them with and without a loop, at 0Hz, 1Hz, 10 Hz, full band and share the plots.

With regards to loop vs. no loop; I mean to state that I will measure a 1-meter length with one end shorted - creating a loop and a 2-metre length then I will simply measure one conductor of a 2m length. I will make sure that the longer cable isn't looped. This should give us some in sight into losses at the termination point, of the looped approach...

Once this series of test is complete and upload, I think it would also be educational to view the phase delay and group delays of the aforementioned... and contrast them also to their standard frequency response scores...

It would probably take less than hour to take the measurements; however, it would most likely take an additional couple of hours, or so, to compose a coherent thread, depicting the results, so most probably half a day, outside of running around to purchase the cable to test.

In my mind, this would really just expand upon your efforts.

Lastly, I am a strong believer that subtle differences in adequately, and identically gauged (AWG-Cert) speaker wire, are inaudible to 99% of all humans, when the length is below 7-8'; so as to build a base of objective support, I'd like to table the idea of increasing the base length to 2-metres or 6.55' feet.

Or should I also include the results for cables at twice their original length, as well, so 1-metre vs. 2-metre...

It would just gives us all a more objective base, to use anyway we respectively desire...

Any input is welcome...

Thanks
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Last edited by Garidy; 09-18-2014 at 06:44 AM.
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