REVIEW INCL. Just got monoprice speaker wire in.....why do you guys reccomend this so much? - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 372 Old 09-18-2014, 07:42 AM
 
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This is like having a parent in hospice care.
As in you wish this thread had a DNR tag?
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post #302 of 372 Old 09-18-2014, 10:45 PM
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post #303 of 372 Old 09-19-2014, 11:02 PM
 
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Thanks for interest in my test. Comments below.
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Originally Posted by Garidy View Post
I would like to select 3 perhaps 4 brands of cable, of the same posted gauging, and measure them with and without a loop, at 0Hz, 1Hz, 10 Hz, full band and share the plots.
My setup is a simple (but very sensitive) LCR meter that works at 100 Hz / 120 Hz / 1 kHz / 10 kHz / 100 kHz. So plotting and such is not in the cards without creating another fixture.

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With regards to loop vs. no loop; I mean to state that I will measure a 1-meter length with one end shorted - creating a loop and a 2-metre length then I will simply measure one conductor of a 2m length. I will make sure that the longer cable isn't looped. This should give us some in sight into losses at the termination point, of the looped approach...
This is indeed the way I tested most (all?) of the wires. That way I could keep the meter probes at one end and double the effective length of the wire while keeping it straight.

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It would probably take less than hour to take the measurements; however, it would most likely take an additional couple of hours, or so, to compose a coherent thread, depicting the results, so most probably half a day, outside of running around to purchase the cable to test.
For just one wire, yes, it would probably take that kind of effort. But to have repeatable results across many wires, it takes a lot more time. I easily spent multiple days on the test results I showed as I refined my scheme. The reporting with graphs and such also took some time.

At this point the question is whether any new data justifies the effort involved. In this area of verifying wire gauge, I don't think there is. I have ideas for other ways of going after this topic and working on testing schemes there.
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post #304 of 372 Old 09-24-2014, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Thanks for interest in my test. Comments below.

My setup is a simple (but very sensitive) LCR meter that works at 100 Hz / 120 Hz / 1 kHz / 10 kHz / 100 kHz. So plotting and such is not in the cards without creating another fixture.


This is indeed the way I tested most (all?) of the wires. That way I could keep the meter probes at one end and double the effective length of the wire while keeping it straight.


For just one wire, yes, it would probably take that kind of effort. But to have repeatable results across many wires, it takes a lot more time. I easily spent multiple days on the test results I showed as I refined my scheme. The reporting with graphs and such also took some time.

At this point the question is whether any new data justifies the effort involved. In this area of verifying wire gauge, I don't think there is. I have ideas for other ways of going after this topic and working on testing schemes there.
There's one more piece to this puzzle that I haven't seen addressed and I'd be curious to see: REW graphs of the speaker response with the various cables in place. It wouldn't have to be a full 2 or 5 speaker setup - just one speaker and compare the REW graphs to one another.
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post #305 of 372 Old 09-24-2014, 04:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mjmcmahon67 View Post
There's one more piece to this puzzle that I haven't seen addressed and I'd be curious to see: REW graphs of the speaker response with the various cables in place. It wouldn't have to be a full 2 or 5 speaker setup - just one speaker and compare the REW graphs to one another.
If there was any advantage to high priced cables you'd see charts of this sort on the websites of every high priced cable outfit. The fact that there are none speaks volumes.
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post #306 of 372 Old 09-24-2014, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
If there was any advantage to high priced cables you'd see charts of this sort on the websites of every high priced cable outfit. The fact that there are none speaks volumes.
I don't disagree Bill - independently producing some of those charts would definitely put the issue to bed, though...right?
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post #307 of 372 Old 09-24-2014, 05:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mjmcmahon67 View Post
There's one more piece to this puzzle that I haven't seen addressed and I'd be curious to see: REW graphs of the speaker response with the various cables in place. It wouldn't have to be a full 2 or 5 speaker setup - just one speaker and compare the REW graphs to one another.
Are we expecting Ohm's law to stop functioning because the wire is connected to a speaker rather than a meter?
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post #308 of 372 Old 09-24-2014, 05:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
If there was any advantage to high priced cables you'd see charts of this sort on the websites of every high priced cable outfit. The fact that there are none speaks volumes.
Say what? Wire gauges are routinely advertised on cables. And heavier wire is always priced higher. My testing was aiming to determine if there is false advertising in those declarations. Turns out some vendors are far more truthful than others. And the cheap brands constantly promoted in this forum are some of the offenders when it comes to overstating the gauge of the wire.

So before we throw darts at high-end cables, let's make sure our own house is in order and we don't keep pushing people to buy cables that are substandard when there are perfectly reasonably priced cables that are not. And shame on us for spending more time and energy posting such things instead of spending a bit of time actually measuring the wire resistance to see if the advertising claims are real. This is not time or place to chant our slogans against high-end....

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post #309 of 372 Old 09-24-2014, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Are we expecting Ohm's law to stop functioning because the wire is connected to a speaker rather than a meter?
Not by any stretch of the imagination. You know as well as I do, however, that the uber-cables are marketed as making a noticeable difference in the quality of the sound they produce. If that's true, there should be a measurable change in the FR in REW. Audioholics did an in-depth comparison on the electrical properties of many of those cables (at least those where the vendor would provide them for testing), but stopped short of performing a FR test.

While I'd be extremely surprised if the cables showed ANY difference in the REW response curves, until that testing has been done there will be those who insist that they hear a difference from the $100/ft 12ga wire over the product that is produced by Monoprice or Belkin. In fact, if there was a measurable difference in FR for a 50ft run of Monoprice over a 50ft run of Belkin, it would greatly strengthen your statement that they're sub-standard and not worthy of the recommendation. In my experience, the recommendations for Monoprice's cable have never been that they're perfect, or even that they are truly 12ga cable. From what I've seen, the recommendation has been based upon the fact that there's no audible difference between the cabling provided by Monoprice versus other vendors whose cabling is more expensive.

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post #310 of 372 Old 09-24-2014, 07:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mjmcmahon67 View Post
I don't disagree Bill - independently producing some of those charts would definitely put the issue to bed, though...right?
No, because the 'I know what I'm hearing and you can't measure it' screwballs won't believe them anyway.
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post #311 of 372 Old 09-24-2014, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
No, because the 'I know what I'm hearing and you can't measure it' screwballs won't believe them anyway.
[sarcasm] screwballs? I'm shocked Bill! How could you possibly believe a calibrated microphone over the human ear??[/sarcasm]
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post #312 of 372 Old 09-25-2014, 08:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mjmcmahon67 View Post
[sarcasm] screwballs? I'm shocked Bill! How could you possibly believe a calibrated microphone over the human ear??[/sarcasm]
Not related to the topic of this thread but you definitely don't want to trust that "calibrated" microphone over your ears when it comes to room acoustics above transition frequencies of a few hundred hetz. Two ears and a brain are far more sophisticated than a microphone and some graph. Here is an article I wrote with respect to comb filtering which is visible in room measurements but has little correlation with what we hear: http://www.**************.com/Librar...flections.html

I think we have to be very careful as we use our talking points in other context.
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Not related to the topic of this thread but you definitely don't want to trust that "calibrated" microphone over your ears when it comes to room acoustics above transition frequencies of a few hundred hetz. Two ears and a brain are far more sophisticated than a microphone and some graph. Here is an article I wrote with respect to comb filtering which is visible in room measurements but has little correlation with what we hear: http://www.**************.com/Librar...flections.html

I think we have to be very careful as we use our talking points in other context.
With all due respect, Amir, I believe you're mistaking the reasoning behind the test I suggested. If two pieces of cable are electrically identical and play the same sound sweep from the same speaker in the same environment, the REW graph should be consistent. If on the other hand the Monoprice cable is substandard as you suggest, would the REW graph not show a difference in the output played using that cable versus the Belden?
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post #314 of 372 Old 09-25-2014, 09:17 AM
 
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Not by any stretch of the imagination. You know as well as I do, however, that the uber-cables are marketed as making a noticeable difference in the quality of the sound they produce.
We are not talking about uber expensive cables, nor the "quality" of the sound produced. This thread is about a person complaining bitterly about quality of the Monoprice cable he received, vs a spool of RadioShack wire. The RadioShack wire cost something like $40 vs $25. I don't call that uber expensive. My testing shows that his subjective observations were right on the money. The RadioShack cable was superior both subjectively (how it felt/looked) and meeting its stated spec of being 12 gauge.

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If that's true, there should be a measurable change in the FR in REW. Audioholics did an in-depth comparison on the electrical properties of many of those cables (at least those where the vendor would provide them for testing), but stopped short of performing a FR test.
As I said and you are agreeing, Ohm's law doesn't stop working when we use a speaker vs a meter to measure the impact of the wire resistance/impedance over the frequency response of the speaker. The data you ask for is readily there in the form of often referenced article by Roger Russell: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm



Response in the above set of curves is for the same small 2-way 4-ohm speaker. The microphone position is only a few inches from the system but that is not important for this example. Here, we are interested in response differences for different series resistance for the same microphone position and not for speaker response at different microphone positions.

Now, he used a resistor in series with the speaker to make these measurements but that is no different than equiv. length of wire.

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While I'd be extremely surprised if the cables showed ANY difference in the REW response curves, until that testing has been done there will be those who insist that they hear a difference from the $100/ft 12ga wire over the product that is produced by Monoprice or Belkin. In fact, if there was a measurable difference in FR for a 50ft run of Monoprice over a 50ft run of Belkin, it would greatly strengthen your statement that they're sub-standard and not worthy of the recommendation.
Again, this is not a conversation about $100/ft cables. I didn't measure them and no one advocated them. We did however compare Belden to Monoprice.

50 foot of speaker cable represents 100 foot run when you consider the full loop. At 100 feet, the Monoprice cable will impose a 0.2 ohm resistance on the load. If the speaker has a dip in its impedance of 2 ohms, you just added 10% more resistance to that portion of the frequency response. The impact, and this is important, will be much lower for the rest of the speaker response that has higher impedance. So in essence, you have inserted an equalizer into the circuit. Here is a random example of such a speaker:



So around 100 hertz will you get a dip in the measured output of the speaker by 10%. Compare that to 1 Khz and higher where this impact will be negligible.

The Belden cable in contrast presents half the load so its impact would be 5%.

Our detection of such frequency response variations (for broad resonances, see my article http://www.**************.com/Librar...stortions.html) is about 0.5 db. By my math, with the Monoprice cable you will have a 0.8 db drop vs 0.4 for the Belden.

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In my experience, the recommendations for Monoprice's cable have never been that they're perfect, or even that they are truly 12ga cable. From what I've seen, the recommendation has been based upon the fact that there's no audible difference between the cabling provided by Monoprice versus other vendors whose cabling is more expensive.
I can't speak for your observation of course since I don't know what posts you have seen on the forum. This thread was created by someone who read exactly that: that these monoprice cables are absolutely the same as any other and I agree with him. We have people who are walking billboards for Monoprice with no qualifications whatsoever:

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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Get a spool of 14AWG. Run that for all speakers.

For example:
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_i...seq=1&format=2
None of these recommendations were backed by any measurements. People read the advertised spec and believed. We now, for the first time, have data that says these recommendations should have had the caveats you mention. But did not and people still go and buy junk cable that saves them less money than the cost of one blu-ray disc. Penny wise and pound foolish is what we have here.

I don't know why this message is so hard to accept. Is there some stake we have in recommending Monoprice specifically? I am supposed to go and run REW tests now just to convince people to spend a bit more money and get quality cable to run behind their walls?

Mind you, if I have a non-critical application monoprice or other bargain basement stuff is OK. But for other things, when you can make a short trip to a local store and get better stuff, we should do that. We should advocate quality and take the side of consumer, not retailers. At least that is my stance .
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post #315 of 372 Old 09-25-2014, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
We are not talking about uber expensive cables, nor the "quality" of the sound produced. This thread is about a person complaining bitterly about quality of the Monoprice cable he received, vs a spool of RadioShack wire. The RadioShack wire cost something like $40 vs $25. I don't call that uber expensive. My testing shows that his subjective observations were right on the money. The RadioShack cable was superior both subjectively (how it felt/looked) and meeting its stated spec of being 12 gauge.


As I said and you are agreeing, Ohm's law doesn't stop working when we use a speaker vs a meter to measure the impact of the wire resistance/impedance over the frequency response of the speaker. The data you ask for is readily there in the form of often referenced article by Roger Russell: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm



Response in the above set of curves is for the same small 2-way 4-ohm speaker. The microphone position is only a few inches from the system but that is not important for this example. Here, we are interested in response differences for different series resistance for the same microphone position and not for speaker response at different microphone positions.

Now, he used a resistor in series with the speaker to make these measurements but that is no different than equiv. length of wire.


Again, this is not a conversation about $100/ft cables. I didn't measure them and no one advocated them. We did however compare Belden to Monoprice.

50 foot of speaker cable represents 100 foot run when you consider the full loop. At 100 feet, the Monoprice cable will impose a 0.2 ohm resistance on the load. If the speaker has a dip in its impedance of 2 ohms, you just added 10% more resistance to that portion of the frequency response. The impact, and this is important, will be much lower for the rest of the speaker response that has higher impedance. So in essence, you have inserted an equalizer into the circuit. Here is a random example of such a speaker:



So around 100 hertz will you get a dip in the measured output of the speaker by 10%. Compare that to 1 Khz and higher where this impact will be negligible.

The Belden cable in contrast presents half the load so its impact would be 5%.

Our detection of such frequency response variations (for broad resonances, see my article http://www.**************.com/Librar...stortions.html) is about 0.5 db. By my math, with the Monoprice cable you will have a 0.8 db drop vs 0.4 for the Belden.


I can't speak for your observation of course since I don't know what posts you have seen on the forum. This thread was created by someone who read exactly that: that these monoprice cables are absolutely the same as any other and I agree with him. We have people who are walking billboards for Monoprice with no qualifications whatsoever:



None of these recommendations were backed by any measurements. People read the advertised spec and believed. We now, for the first time, have data that says these recommendations should have had the caveats you mention. But did not and people still go and buy junk cable that saves them less money than the cost of one blu-ray disc. Penny wise and pound foolish is what we have here.

I don't know why this message is so hard to accept. Is there some stake we have in recommending Monoprice specifically? I am supposed to go and run REW tests now just to convince people to spend a bit more money and get quality cable to run behind their walls?

Mind you, if I have a non-critical application monoprice or other bargain basement stuff is OK. But for other things, when you can make a short trip to a local store and get better stuff, we should do that. We should advocate quality and take the side of consumer, not retailers. At least that is my stance .
Thanks Amir -

To be honest, I'd scoffed at the possibility that there would be an audible difference but a 10% drop at 100Hz would be audible, even at my typically low listening levels. Now you've got me thinking about replacing the wire for my rear surrounds. I hope you're proud of yourself, young man!
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post #316 of 372 Old 09-25-2014, 12:09 PM
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Cute.
I get quoted and spanked again for a recommendation.

If everyone has to measure every wire/cable... so be it, if it makes one happy.

So... $40 vs. $25 provides an "audible" improvement? Does the lack a strand of copper lessen the audio quality?

You've done a wonderful investigation that a batch of 12 AWG from Monoprice may not be 12 AWG. Kudos
Have you seen the movie Frozen? Let it go.
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post #317 of 372 Old 09-25-2014, 12:37 PM
 
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To be honest, I'd scoffed at the possibility that there would be an audible difference but a 10% drop at 100Hz would be audible, even at my typically low listening levels. Now you've got me thinking about replacing the wire for my rear surrounds.
Before you do look at the actual difference in the resistance of 30 feet of 12 ga versus 14 ga wire. It's 0.06 ohms. The resistance of 30 feet of 14 ga is 0.15 ohms. Now look at that chart again. It was measured with series resistance of 1 and 2 ohms. You'd never use a cable with 1 ohm or 2 ohms DCR with a four ohm speaker to begin with. This quote from Roger is conveniently omitted from the post you're responding to:

The resistances used in this example are much larger than the recommended wire resistance of 0.2 ohms but they do show how impedance variations can influence response.
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Before you do look at the actual difference in the resistance of 30 feet of 12 ga versus 14 ga wire. It's 0.06 ohms. The resistance of 30 feet of 14 ga is 0.15 ohms. Now look at that chart again. It was measured with series resistance of 1 and 2 ohms. You'd never use a cable with 1 ohm or 2 ohms DCR with a four ohm speaker to begin with. This quote from Roger is conveniently omitted from the post you're responding to:

The resistances used in this example are much larger than the recommended wire resistance of 0.2 ohms but they do show how impedance variations can influence response.
Bill -

are you saying that Amir's example is an impossible worst-case scenario?

I'm just trying to understand, not stir the pot.

Mike
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post #319 of 372 Old 09-25-2014, 01:13 PM
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Cute.
I get quoted and spanked again for a recommendation.

If everyone has to measure every wire/cable... so be it, if it makes one happy.

So... $40 vs. $25 provides an "audible" improvement? Does the lack a strand of copper lessen the audio quality?

You've done a wonderful investigation that a batch of 12 AWG from Monoprice may not be 12 AWG. Kudos
Have you seen the movie Frozen? Let it go.
It's amazing that someone actually puts in facts (science!) behind the notion that not all cable are (sound?) the sound, and you still won't accept it? No one is advocating to buy $100/ft cables but if the conclusion is that Monoprice cables are really uhm... crap (you get what you pay for), and it makes sense to spend a few extra dollars for better cables then I know enough. And that's not cute.

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And anyone that goes to such effort to prove that $15 for the "extra" copper is a scientist?
Okay...

How about some "scientific" proof that the difference is "AUDIBLE".

I call it a vendetta against Monoprice.

Either way, buy what you like and helps you sleep at night.

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post #321 of 372 Old 09-25-2014, 02:48 PM
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And anyone that goes to such effort to prove that $15 for the "extra" copper is a scientist?
Okay...

How about some "scientific" proof that the difference is "AUDIBLE".

I call it a vendetta against Monoprice.

Either way, buy what you like and helps you sleep at night.
How can you proof something sounds different? You can't. You can proof if something is made of inferior materials.

Vendetta? How about some people are blind to any criticism of Monoprice?
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post #322 of 372 Old 09-25-2014, 02:59 PM
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How can you proof something sounds different? You can't.
Unless I'm grossly mistaken, I would expect that a difference in sound would show up on a FR test in REW or a similar testing tool. Based upon my interpretation of Bill Fitzmaurice's post, where he points out that the data quoted by Amir is for a much greater difference in resistance than is possible between two grades of wire, I'm beginning to question whether there would be an audible difference or not.

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You can proof if something is made of inferior materials.

Vendetta? How about some people are blind to any criticism of Monoprice?
Criticism of their labeling of the product has some validity. What I've heard consistently here, however, has been that the differences are not audible ones and, if that's the case, their point is a reasonable one. IMO, of course.
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post #323 of 372 Old 09-25-2014, 03:15 PM
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Then let Amirm put a stake in the ground.

He should recommend 12AWG speaker wire to be used by everyone from the newbie to the audiophile. Even when it's not necessary when 14AWG is more than adequate for the distance.

Based on what has been discussed and presented... one would assume that 12AWG Radio Shack is the best for price/performance.

I can't say because my 30 year old green 14AWG from Radio Shack is still in use. (Monoprice wasn't around at the time)
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post #324 of 372 Old 09-25-2014, 04:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Before you do look at the actual difference in the resistance of 30 feet of 12 ga versus 14 ga wire. It's 0.06 ohms. The resistance of 30 feet of 14 ga is 0.15 ohms. Now look at that chart again. It was measured with series resistance of 1 and 2 ohms. You'd never use a cable with 1 ohm or 2 ohms DCR with a four ohm speaker to begin with. This quote from Roger is conveniently omitted from the post you're responding to:

The resistances used in this example are much larger than the recommended wire resistance of 0.2 ohms but they do show how impedance variations can influence response.
I showed the correct math for 50 feet of cable, using the actual measurements. I did NOT use Roger's graph for that so it doesn't matter that he used a larger impedance. I post that graph to show that frequency response variations due upstream impedance increase does indeed change the in-room response. That seemed to be the question, i.e. is it measurable with REW. It is. I used nothing else from the graph. I computed the db drop using my own math as I said.

For your part you shorten the cable to 30 feet as opposed to what was asked. And get your numbers from who knows where. 30 foot of cable round trip is 60 feet. Using Monoprice "12 gauge" measured resistance it results in 0.128 ohms, not .06. 0.128 ohms impacts a 2 ohm speaker impedance by 0.5 db. That is the threshold of audibility so we don't get to make the wire thinner yet to 14 gauge and claim it was good enough just because Roger tested 1 and 2 ohm values. It is an irrelevant comparison.
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post #325 of 372 Old 09-25-2014, 04:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Then let Amirm put a stake in the ground.

He should recommend 12AWG speaker wire to be used by everyone from the newbie to the audiophile. Even when it's not necessary when 14AWG is more than adequate for the distance.
Both newbies and serious audiophiles need to know the real reason a recommendation is made. If the motivation is hatred of high-end and defending forum posts, that is just plain wrong. You need to base your recommendation on proper foundation. You say here when something "is not even necessary." What is necessary? Where did you get your definition for that? The only proper answer is what I post this morning.

And that is the problem. You must know the impedance of your speaker and most people don't, or can't get such info since manufacturers don't publish it. Where that leads is us is that the safe answer is 12 gauge for reasonable lengths of wire in residential audio systems. I could have gone down to 8 gauge I did not. I stopped at 12 which is still a very reasonably priced cable. Get true 12 gauge and you don't have to understand anything I explained this morning. Get 14 or randomly labeled 12 gauge wire and you better know all of that detail to know if it is "necessary" for you to get 12 gauge wire or not.

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Based on what has been discussed and presented... one would assume that 12AWG Radio Shack is the best for price/performance.
It is one of the choices. There were others.

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I can't say because my 30 year old green 14AWG from Radio Shack is still in use. (Monoprice wasn't around at the time)
I have wire that old from RS too. It is brittle, stiff and green at the ends. It also has the places where the insulation is chewed off by our puppies! I use it when I need a short length of wire for my bench power supply wire and such. I am too frugal to throw it away . Today there is a market for premium cable and the RadioShack spool of wire I tested and OP talked about, is not your or my RadioShack wire of old.

BTW, when I went searching for your posts recommending monoprice I landed on this:

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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
I completely agree. BUT!
There are two individuals that would disagree about using Monoprice. Search for the posts and testing results by Amirm.
This was from a couple of months ago after this thread was completed. Remarkable that we stuff the cotton so deep in our ears with respect to audio science that no amount of math, science or listening test data can pull it out.....
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post #326 of 372 Old 09-25-2014, 04:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mjmcmahon67 View Post
Unless I'm grossly mistaken, I would expect that a difference in sound would show up on a FR test in REW or a similar testing tool. Based upon my interpretation of Bill Fitzmaurice's post, where he points out that the data quoted by Amir is for a much greater difference in resistance than is possible between two grades of wire, I'm beginning to question whether there would be an audible difference or not.
Again, Bill was mistaken. I used the actual resistances of the wire to compute the db drop, not what was in the data I quoted from Roger.
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post #327 of 372 Old 09-25-2014, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Again, Bill was mistaken. I used the actual resistances of the wire to compute the db drop, not what was in the data I quoted from Roger.
Thanks for the clarification Amir - a 2 Ohm Impedance seems pretty low. How would that affect my B&W 685's, for example, which have a specified minimum impedance of 3.5 Ohms? I apologize for all the questions, but you've quickly outpaced my limited understanding of Ohm's law and how it would apply here.
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post #328 of 372 Old 09-25-2014, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Both newbies and serious audiophiles need to know the real reason a recommendation is made. If the motivation is hatred of high-end and defending forum posts, that is just plain wrong. You need to base your recommendation on proper foundation. You say here when something "is not even necessary." What is necessary? Where did you get your definition for that? The only proper answer is what I post this morning.

And that is the problem. You must know the impedance of your speaker and most people don't, or can't get such info since manufacturers don't publish it. Where that leads is us is that the safe answer is 12 gauge for reasonable lengths of wire in residential audio systems. I could have gone down to 8 gauge I did not. I stopped at 12 which is still a very reasonably priced cable. Get true 12 gauge and you don't have to understand anything I explained this morning. Get 14 or randomly labeled 12 gauge wire and you better know all of that detail to know if it is "necessary" for you to get 12 gauge wire or not.


It is one of the choices. There were others.


I have wire that old from RS too. It is brittle, stiff and green at the ends. It also has the places where the insulation is chewed off by our puppies! I use it when I need a short length of wire for my bench power supply wire and such. I am too frugal to throw it away . Today there is a market for premium cable and the RadioShack spool of wire I tested and OP talked about, is not your or my RadioShack wire of old.

BTW, when I went searching for your posts recommending monoprice I landed on this:



This was from a couple of months ago after this thread was completed. Remarkable that we stuff the cotton so deep in our ears with respect to audio science that no amount of math, science or listening test data can pull it out.....
So... you recommend anything but Monoprice. You proved them to be "deceptive". Good. Is the difference audible? Does the difference in the price of copper make this worth the bickering?

You, being an entrepreneur and technically competent, did you present your findings to Monoprice and allow them to address your claim(s) publicly? IMHO, that would be the professional approach.

What do you, as an entrepreneur suggest as the best speaker wire?
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post #329 of 372 Old 09-25-2014, 05:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mjmcmahon67 View Post
Thanks for the clarification Amir - a 2 Ohm Impedance seems pretty low. How would that affect my B&W 685's, for example, which have a specified minimum impedance of 3.5 Ohms? I apologize for all the questions, but you've quickly outpaced my limited understanding of Ohm's law and how it would apply here.
You are asking good questions . The impact is linear. Using your 50 foot example, the Monoprice cable will cause a drop of 0.5 db at 100 Hz where your impedance dip is. The Belden would be half as much. So for cheap wire you are borderline. With quality you are not.

Last edited by amirm; 09-25-2014 at 05:24 PM. Reason: Can't type today...
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post #330 of 372 Old 09-25-2014, 05:46 PM
 
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So... you recommend anything but Monoprice. You proved them to be "deceptive". Good. Is the difference audible?
This is exactly what I answered today. And had written the same explanation multiple times in this thread. Read the post again and tell me what part of it you don't understand and I will expand.

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Does the difference in the price of copper make this worth the bickering?
??? I am sharing data and explanation of science and engineering. That is what this subforum is all about. If you are here, then by definition you need to be interested in such data and exchange of information. What this has to do with "difference in price of copper, " I don't know.

Quote:
You, being an entrepreneur and technically competent, did you present your findings to Monoprice and allow them to address your claim(s) publicly? IMHO, that would be the professional approach.

What do you, as an entrepreneur suggest as the best speaker wire?
I have answered both of these questions before. What I have presented is data, it is not a claim. What you have presented is a claim: that their cables are fit for the needs of members here. OP complained that these claims were misleading in talking him into wires that he did not want in his system. I looked at the specs and noticed that they did not match what 12 gauge wire is supposed to be. So claim #2 was theirs. What I did then was perform a suite of measurements against a number of other cables with the same spec. This is data. It is not a claim. If you are going to mix these two things together then I don't know what else to tell you.

As to notify them, don't ask me. If they care what members say about their products here, they should have representation here. It is not our job to run back and tell them about it. I am here to advance the interest of members, not theirs. If you continue to be more worried about the latter, by all means, contact them.

As to the best cable, I suggest you read my data again. And this mornings post. And many others in this thread.
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