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REVIEW INCL. Just got monoprice speaker wire in.....why do you guys reccomend this so much?

32K views 371 replies 56 participants last post by  CharlesJ 
#1 ·

so I posted a thread about building a cheap system here:

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1519352/threw-together-this-cheapo-system-what-do-you-guys-think

 

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upon heavy recommendation from the forum, and nearly half of the forum viewing that monoprice is the best audio cable on the market for the best price.

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1518761/whats-your-favorite-cable-manufacturer-poll

 

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with that said, I took the plunge and ordered some of it. and I went to radio shack to buy AUVIO to decided what I wanted to run.

 

first impressions of mono-price cable. along with a comparison to what is available to me locally.

 

1: dirty, when I opened the box, the spool looked used, beaten to hell and wrapped in what looked to be used/recycled sandwhich wrap.

it's not a big deal, so I took the cable off of the melting card board spool and discarded it. smelled like cheap china product you get on ebay, which nobody tells newbies for some reason.

 

I ordered 50 feet no logo, I got 50 feet no logo so that's a plus. radioshack's 25 foot spool only had about 20 feet in it.

 

2: it's thinner, and the strands are wrapped in a sloppier manner than the AUVIO cable. Radioshacks cable looks good, looks expensive, looks quality like what you would expect a "high end" speaker system to use.  Mono-price stuff SHOULD BE SLEEVED/COVERED/BOOTED in my opinion

 

3: it's closer to radio-shack's 14 gauge cable than the 12 gauge, monoprice claims that the jacketing is thicker on the radioshack stuff hence the thickness difference, not true, I striped the jacketing off to get a banana plug on it, and there is more copper on the radio shack AUVIO 12 gauge.

 

jacketing quality is poor, takes 1-4 strands when you strip it no matter how great your stripper is. auvio cable is easier to strip, strips kind of like Monster cable i had in my boat/car 10 years ago, or like the great speaker cable that pioneer gave us on my dad's 90's 5.1 DD theater system. 

 

the fittings from monoprice are harder to use than the banana plugs I picked up at radio-shack as well (however there is a $15 price difference PER SET, so pick your poison there, I just dealt with the so-so plugs at the speakers and sub, but I sprung for the higher end plugs at the amp end due to it being the expensive part of the system)

 

ending notes: I would NOT recommend this cable for someone who will have speakers in a visible location. but If it is used in a manner where you can see very little of it, or if you plan on sleeving it, it works fine.

 

monoprice 12 gauge cable is low end, cheap cable made thicker, if you take anything from this review, buyer beware, this brand is hyped because ......i don't know................it looks nearly identical to the low end RCA brand speaker wire sold at Walmart, just about 3 times as thick.

 

 

 



 



 



 

 
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#152 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/120#post_24458723


I have no intention of contacting them. I am addressing our own level of knowledge in this regard in the forum.
Okay. But I do hope that the speaker wire that you use for your business (and your own home) will also be included in the testing.

We would assume that product would be a good benchmark for comparison(s)... just for our own level of knowledge in regard to this thread in the forum.

A level playing field so to speak.
 
#153 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/120#post_24458749


Not to toot my own horn but IMO Amir will do well to match the quality of data gathered in http://www.avsforum.com/t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-monoprice-speaker-wire-in-why-do-you-guys-reccomend-this-so-much/90#post_24450859 . ;-)
Match what quality Arny? You are showing a graph and nothing else. I assume you built one of those hobby small resistor measurement system using the sound card as your "volt meter." Did you build your external box as active or passive? What resistor did you use in series? How much current is going through it? What is the temperature coefficient? And can you quantify exactly what accuracy you have as far as decimal places?


You also used 20 feet of wire which makes the measurement easier but makes the comparison difficult since you can't lay all the samples the same way. Such long lengths can also pick up stray signals.


I am following the standard process which involves keeping the wires flat and straight and using the proper instrument designed for this use with known accuracy. That way the measurements are repeatable and comparable with each other.
Quote:
This situation is a good joke on me because my tests showed that Home Depot 12 gauge low voltage cable was significantly undersized, which I never noticed! ;-)
Or your measurements were not accurate enough. You need a way to determine that when you build your own fixture.
 
#154 ·
I can't help myself sometimes , this thread is too entertaining to stay quiet .

To whoever is saying that the O.P. shouldn't come here complaining but contact M.P. , did I miss the part where he said specifically that he hadn't spoken to them? Why is it a bad thing to report findings on products here? Whether it is a fluke sample or they are selling 13-14 AWG equivalent wire as 12 AWG would be nice to know , but ultimately putting the word out that there might be an issue is valuable information , even if it is cheap speaker wire.

Several people have mentioned surface corrosion on their speaker wire and some have said it makes no difference . Does this corrosion have the exact same impedance and conductive characteristic as the base structure? If it doesn't , then I would think that it in fact does degrade signal . I am by no means an acoustical expert , and it could be that sound is not affected by this , but electrically, corrosion is reducing the conductive surface, increases impedance and lowers the conductive potential of the wire . Granted it is possible that it's not enough to notice at the speaker , but it does affect the wire , otherwise why would high end components often be plated with silver , gold, palladium , etc. instead of just allowing them to corrode ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...-guys-reccomend-this-so-much/90#post_24449459


HD and Lowes both align their stock with local building codes to some extent. I have noticed stores in the LA city area have less of a Romex stock then the stores on the valley area where Romex is legal.

Glimmie , off topic but I saw this and had to ask . When did L.A. city outlaw romex ? The building inspectors on the last 4 houses I did in L.A. had no problem with romex . 1 was in the valley (Van Nuys) that is under the jurisdiction of LADBS . those were in 2012-13 I didn't see any change listed for 2014 , so if you have a link it'd be appreciated . Thanks
 
#155 ·
The copper patina is not as good a conductor as the nearly pure copper wire. So, the conductivity of the wire is reduced very slightly, far less than enough to be audible. The good news is that unlike rust on steel, the copper patina stops growing at a very small thickness and prevents further corrosion. The only real issue is at the connections. It is necessary to remove the patina, or pierce it, to get a good connection. Plating with precious metals is for show. Tin would function as well. And you don't even need that with an air tight connection with clean copper, which can easily be achieved with crimped on spade terminals and a terminal strip, or even with a bare wire in a well tightened 5-way binding post.
 
#156 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/150#post_24462260


The copper patina is not as good a conductor as the nearly pure copper wire. So, the conductivity of the wire is reduced very slightly, far less than enough to be audible. The good news is that unlike rust on steel, the copper patina stops growing at a very small thickness and prevents further corrosion. The only real issue is at the connections. It is necessary to remove the patina, or pierce it, to get a good connection. Plating with precious metals is for show. Tin would function as well. And you don't even need that with an air tight connection with clean copper, which can easily be achieved with crimped on spade terminals and a terminal strip, or even with a bare wire in a well tightened 5-way binding post.

I will take your word on the audible statement , and upon further research after posting , agree at least in part with the corrosion not having as much effect as I first thought . I was thinking about skin effect and the corrosion directly controlling the wires ability to conduct . As I'm an electrician , and mostly work with A.C. power systems , I didn't realize (until about 10 minutes ago) that skin effect doesn't come into play with DC power. I will argue that the corrosion may or may not stop at minimal thickness , again , unless this is dependent upon the type of power ( DC vs. AC) because I have seen plenty of wire that corrosion has done far more damage than slight surface damage .

Plating with precious metal very well might be mostly for show on the DC side of things , again because of the lack of skin effect , however I would think their superior corrosion resistance would pose benefits , and silver is more conductive than copper , gold has superior corrosion resistance . Tin is no where close to copper gold or silver , if I remember correctly its around 20% conductivity compared to copper .

I fully agree with air tight fittings negating worry about corrosion ,and I know I'm splitting hairs but "airtight" is a relative term in regard to terminations , honestly in this application it probably doesn't make a difference to the listening experience , but crimp or binding posts are not air tight on their own .

Thank you for taking the time to respond , and for the chance for discussion . I hope my comments haven't come across as combative , thats not my intent at all .
 
#157 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/150#post_24461111

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/120#post_24458749


Not to toot my own horn but IMO Amir will do well to match the quality of data gathered in http://www.avsforum.com/t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-monoprice-speaker-wire-in-why-do-you-guys-reccomend-this-so-much/90#post_24450859 . ;-)
Match what quality Arny?

It is true that some may lack the technical discernment required to appreciate technical work at a certain high level.
Quote:
You are showing a graph and nothing else.

The graph is self-evident to most people who are aware of the technical issues.
Quote:
I assume you built one of those hobby small resistor measurement system using the sound card as your "volt meter."

Nothing of the sort. There was a professional audio interface involved in the measurement, but since it is well known that those devices are not calibrated as voltmeters, a regular laboratory Fluke voltmeter and precision resistors were used for that purpose. I also have long had two Hewlett Packard AC voltmeters on hand for the purpose of confirming the results.
Quote:
Did you build your external box as active or passive?

Passive, following good measurement practice.
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What resistor did you use in series?

Um, this was done 14 or so years ago. No idea. My lab's inventory includes several complete series of of precision resistors of various wattages. I picked something that was appropriate, no doubt.
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How much current is going through it?

Very little.
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What is the temperature coefficient?

Not an issue.
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And can you quantify exactly what accuracy you have as far as decimal places?

Probably around 1%.
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You also used 20 feet of wire which makes the measurement easier but makes the comparison difficult since you can't lay all the samples the same way. Such long lengths can also pick up stray signals.

That's one of the advantages of using an audio interface rather than a meter. I had ready access to a wide band FFT of the voltages applied and measured. They were very clean.
Quote:
I am following the standard process which involves keeping the wires flat and straight and using the proper instrument designed for this use with known accuracy. That way the measurements are repeatable and comparable with each other.

Doooh!
Quote:
Quote:
This situation is a good joke on me because my tests showed that Home Depot 12 gauge low voltage cable was significantly undersized, which I never noticed! ;-)
Or your measurements were not accurate enough. You need a way to determine that when you build your own fixture.

It is true that for some jealous people, no good deed goes unpunished.


I had an old school education in testing and measurement. Give me a single precision resistor or precision voltage source and I can follow my formal training to leverage it into a wide variety of accurate measurements. Remember, my first electronics courses were based on vacuum tubes, with solid state added because it seemed to be the coming thing! ;-)
 
#159 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/150#post_24462718

Quote:
I didn't realize (until about 10 minutes ago) that skin effect doesn't come into play with DC power.

Skin effect doesn't come in to play at the highest audio frequencies either.

Not audibly, but measurably, yes.

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/skineffect/page4.html





In general, inductance is the far stronger effect for the sizes of wire that we use with loudspeakers.

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/skineffect/page5.html




Increasing wire spacing increases inductance





Increasing wire diameter increases high frequency loses through a combination of skin effect and inductance.
 
#161 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by acras13  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/150#post_24462374


I will take your word on the audible statement , and upon further research after posting , agree at least in part with the corrosion not having as much effect as I first thought . I was thinking about skin effect and the corrosion directly controlling the wires ability to conduct .

Skin effect is very weak at audio frequencies and the relatively small wires we use with speakers, even 12 gauge.


Furthermore at audio frequencies skin effect actually penetrates the wire to a fair depth. The reason that skin effect is weak with small wires (e.g. 12 gauge and up) is that that skin effect penetrates the whole wire. So it doesn't involve just the very outer surface of the wire.


Move up to cable TV frequencies and its a different story.
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As I'm an electrician , and mostly work with A.C. power systems , I didn't realize (until about 10 minutes ago) that skin effect doesn't come into play with DC power.

I can confirm that you've been told right about that.
Quote:
I will argue that the corrosion may or may not stop at minimal thickness , again , unless this is dependent upon the type of power ( DC vs. AC) because I have seen plenty of wire that corrosion has done far more damage than slight surface damage .

Skin effect at audio frequencies does not relate to just the surface of the wire. The effect falls off towards the center of the wire with a roughly exponential slope. It is maximized at the surface, but it falls off slowly as we penetrate the wire.
Quote:
Plating with precious metal very well might be mostly for show on the DC side of things , again because of the lack of skin effect , however I would think their superior corrosion resistance would pose benefits , and silver is more conductive than copper , gold has superior corrosion resistance.

IME, plated wire is in general a good thing. IME nothing solders nicer than nice clean silver plated wire! I was a radar tech in the Army and the chassis of the equipment slid out on rails for adjustment and replacement. Each one was connected via a ca. 10 foot wiring harness that was made up of both shielded and and regular wires of various gauges. Teflon insulation wall-to-wall. These would fail periodically and the old ones would be scrapped into a trash can. I would invariably "clean" the trash can after hours. ;-)
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Tin is no where close to copper gold or silver , if I remember correctly its around 20% conductivity compared to copper .

But it vastly reduces surface corrosion.
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I fully agree with air tight fittings negating worry about corrosion ,and I know I'm splitting hairs but "airtight" is a relative term in regard to terminations , honestly in this application it probably doesn't make a difference to the listening experience , but crimp or binding posts are not air tight on their own .

That depends. Consumer grade hand swaging tools are pretty iffy. The professional grade tools are better, but a big heavy power-operated swaging tool such as cable factories use can crimp so tightly that if you try to peel back the connector, the wire and the connector almost seem to be welded. Sometimes there is no almost to it, the pieces are pressure welded.
 
#163 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/150#post_24463125


Making FR measurements with that sort of repeatibiliy and accuracy is well within modern measurement tools, even the sound cards that some people like to poo--pooh.

Did someone suggest this was not the case?


Do you understand the (in)significance of 0.03dB?
 
#164 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by acras13  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/150#post_24462098



Glimmie , off topic but I saw this and had to ask . When did L.A. city outlaw romex ? The building inspectors on the last 4 houses I did in L.A. had no problem with romex . 1 was in the valley (Van Nuys) that is under the jurisdiction of LADBS . those were in 2012-13 I didn't see any change listed for 2014 , so if you have a link it'd be appreciated . Thanks

Not LA but Burbank does not allow Romex. and at some point in LA you can't use it for commercial. I think it can only be used in wood construction commercial but I'm not sure.
 
#165 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/150#post_24463149

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/150#post_24463125


Making FR measurements with that sort of repeatibiliy and accuracy is well within modern measurement tools, even the sound cards that some people like to poo--pooh.

Did someone suggest this was not the case?

Not clear. The statement


:Wow, 0.03dB!"


and


"Skin effect doesn't come in to play at the highest audio frequencies either."


Seem to open the door to overly-broad interpretations. They may not have been meant that way but since when are people around here limited to making only reasonable interpretations? ;-)
Quote:
Do you understand the (in)significance of 0.03dB?

The audible significance is nil, but saying it isn't there or not in play would seem to possibly suggest some need for clarification.


My view is that it is play but never scores a goal and never gets caught.
 
#167 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaverJ  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/150#post_24463301


If I may ask a somewhat off-topic newb question:


In setting up a 2-channel stereo system, is it preferable that both speakers have identical lengths of wire if possible, or does that not matter?

it doesn't matter...much like the majority of this thread.


There is so much technology that could be discussed in these fora, but it always comes down to pages and pages of useless discussion about conductors.
 
#168 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/150#post_24463316


it doesn't matter...much like the majority of this thread.


There is so much technology that could be discussed in these fora, but it always comes down to pages and pages of useless discussion about conductors.

And the reason it doesn't matter is that electrical current travels at about the speed of light. That means it could circle the planet 4 times in a second. Not too many human ears would notice a difference in the arrival of sound through a 6 foot wire vs a 6 mile wire or a 600 mile wire.
 
#169 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/150#post_24463433


And the reason it doesn't matter is that electrical current travels at about the speed of light. That means it could circle the planet 4 times in a second. Not too many human ears would notice a difference in the arrival of sound through a 6 foot wire vs a 6 mile wire or a 600 mile wire.
I know you are being facetious
. But your example of 600 mile is audible. So is 60 if my math is right. Electricity propagates slower than light but even using speed of light, 600 miles results in 3.2 milliseconds of delay in one channel. You can test your ear at this link and see how sensitive you are to interchannel delay: http://auditoryneuroscience.com/topics/time-intensity-trading . Likely depending on level, you will hear a delay of just 0.22 msec. That means 60 miles worth of delay is also audible. And depending on the wire characteristics and true propagation of delay of sound, it would be audible at shorter lengths than that.


The accuracy of our hearing system is high here because it is used to locate sounds based on delay caused between one ear being closer to the source of sound than the other. If you do this math, it comes out to something like 0.4 msec. So not surprising that 0.22 msec worth of delay is also audible.


Bet you didn't think you were going to learn this before coming to this thread.
 
#170 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaverJ  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/150#post_24463301


If I may ask a somewhat off-topic newb question:


In setting up a 2-channel stereo system, is it preferable that both speakers have identical lengths of wire if possible, or does that not matter?

As said the timing difference is not relevant but you if the difference in length is over 50 feet, you may have some level drop if the wire gauge is marginal. But then the balance control can easily fix that too.
 
#171 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...s-reccomend-this-so-much/150_50#post_24465145


As said the timing difference is not relevant but you if the difference in length is over 50 feet, you may have some level drop if the wire gauge is marginal. But then the balance control can easily fix that too.
I agree with the tech points raised previously about difference speaker cable lengths. However, I tell everyone who's ever asked to cut them the same length in case you ever decide to re-arrange the room or move so that you don't possibly end up with one short in the new configuration: I realise that they might still both be wrong. Also helps the OCD types relax.
 
#172 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by acras13  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/150#post_24462374


Tin is no where close to copper gold or silver , if I remember correctly its around 20% conductivity compared to copper.
It is not the relative conductivity that is important. It is the total resistance. Either way, it is certainly not enough to make a difference for speaker cables.
 
#174 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/150#post_24465922

 
Quote:
but even using speed of light, 600 miles results in 3.2 milliseconds of delay in one channel.

That's good advice, to everyone with 600 miles of speaker cable.
 

LMAO!  
 
#175 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64  /t/1520500/review-incl-just-got-mon...guys-reccomend-this-so-much/150#post_24465922


That's good advice, to everyone with 600 miles of speaker cable.
I thought it nicely complimented the 0.03 db thingee!


There is a great book by Stephen Hall called High-Speed Digital System Design: A Handbook of Interconnect Theory and Design Practices. The first sentence in the book is:

"The speed of light is just too slow."



It goes on to say that timing in modern digital electronics is measured in picoseconds (trillionth of a second). In contrast to that, speed of light is pretty slow and an impediment to high performance digital systems. We could have much faster digital systems if that weren't so. In the next Universe, let's have it have a couple more zeros.
 
#176 ·
Thanks for all the great information and cause to do further research guys.


Arnyk , thank you for going way over my head with the amount of detail in several of your posts , I look forward to making sense of it all .

you said

Skin effect is very weak at audio frequencies and the relatively small wires we use with speakers, even 12 gauge.


Furthermore at audio frequencies skin effect actually penetrates the wire to a fair depth. The reason that skin effect is weak with small wires (e.g. 12 gauge and up) is that that skin effect penetrates the whole wire. So it doesn't involve just the very outer surface of the wire.


Are you saying that skin effect does come into play on the audio side , even if it is not audible ? My understanding is that it is caused by eddy currents caused by the alternating magnetic fields in an AC system and not present in DC power delivery . Am I missing something critical in my thinking in regard to sound transmission as I am looking at this purely as a power transmission theory ?

I should have been more clear about my comment on crimp connections . I was thinking about DIY at home crimps for wire terminations . I agree that some crimp type connections can be pressure welded , but strictly from an "air tight" point of view , virtually no DIY'er will get close to that , especially if they have the OP's monoprice wire , a crimp connector that is slightly oversized because of poor quality control ,and a harbor freight crimping tool.


Glimie , thanks for the clarification , B.H. doesn't allow romex at all either . I haven't seen romex on a commercial project in L.A. in 15 years , LAUSD new school construction was wood frame and no romex but LAUSD has their own building standards and inspectors independent from any other governing body.


I'm not sure why someone would come into this thread then complain that there's discussion about conductors , monoprices and I am sorry for my part in taking this off the OP's topic of Monoprices cable quality or lack thereof .
 
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