Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 66 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1951 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
Is Robert Harley an expert?
Is this a trick question?
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post #1952 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 01:46 PM
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Amazon says, "Robert Harley is the editor in chief of The Absolute Sound, the world's most respected magazine on high-performance audio. He is the author of Introductory Guide to High-Performance Audio Systems and Home Theater for Everyone and has written more than 1,000 product reviews and articles on high-quality music reproduction. He lives in Carlsbad, California."

Some people think Robert Harley is spoiled but I'm pretty certain he just smells that way.
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post #1953 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
He must pick and choose his experts very poorly, because if he learned what he needed to from Clark, Vanderkooy, Lip****z, and Geddes for example (All AES Fellows) , he would be publishing the results of DBTs instead of the unfounded opinion that he does. I only say that because I've heard each and every one of them say as much.
Isn't this the worst possible time to talk about DBTs? You have not reported on the results of either one of your DBTs in this thread. Nor have we seen anything on Scott's tests. If you valued them at all you and your cohorts would have reported on them. I honestly can't believe you are bringing up this point when our nose is so dirty on this topic just about now.

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Originally Posted by arny
My preference is to not learn from experts, but rather to learn from the real world. I first run their advice against the measuring stick of the real world.
Please excuse me for saying this bluntly but that is nonsense . Next to not running and reporting DBTs this is the worst thing I have heard from a camp that keeps using the word "science" in every other post. Now we have no use for experts???

Is it because the experts happen to disagree with our position? Folks like Fielder who was the ex-president of AES? All of a sudden we are able to gather our own knowledge better?

And how do we gather that knowledge? Clearly we don't like to run and report on DBTs. None of "us" have an engineering/design job in audio. None of "us" have performed any DBTs professionally. Or conducted any research in this area. And you say we don't need to listen to the experts?

If that is the case, why did you name the above experts? You believe in them in half of your post but not the other?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arny
Asked and answered. Since there has been so much talk about the number 42, the post that you need to recall had the number 67 in it.
I am talking about your test Arny. You had us run a test that you would not run yourself??? All these years challenging people to run and report on DBTs and you yourself don't want to do that? On tests you created much less?

Please forgive me but inescapable conclusion is that you you can't hear the difference between 32 Khz and 96 Khz which Frank and I could easily do. The difference there was "night and day." I think most everyone can hear the degradation. If you can't hear that, then no wonder you advocate such low fidelity in audio reproduction.
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post #1954 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Isn't this the worst possible time to talk about DBTs? You have not reported on the results of either one of your DBTs in this thread. Nor have we seen anything on Scott's tests. If you valued them at all you and your cohorts would have reported on them. I honestly can't believe you are bringing up this point when our nose is so dirty on this topic just about now.


Please excuse me for saying this bluntly but that is nonsense . Next to not running and reporting DBTs this is the worst thing I have heard from a camp that keeps using the word "science" in every other post. Now we have no use for experts???

Is it because the experts happen to disagree with our position? Folks like Fielder who was the ex-president of AES? All of a sudden we are able to gather our own knowledge better?

And how do we gather that knowledge? Clearly we don't like to run and report on DBTs. None of "us" have an engineering/design job in audio. None of "us" have performed any DBTs professionally. Or conducted any research in this area. And you say we don't need to listen to the experts?

If that is the case, why did you name the above experts? You believe in them in half of your post but not the other?


I am talking about your test Arny. You had us run a test that you would not run yourself??? All these years challenging people to run and report on DBTs and you yourself don't want to do that? On tests you created much less?

Please forgive me but inescapable conclusion is that you you can't hear the difference between 32 Khz and 96 Khz which Frank and I could easily do. The difference there was "night and day." I think most everyone can hear the degradation. If you can't hear that, then no wonder you advocate such low fidelity in audio reproduction.
The above post reeks with desperation.
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post #1955 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Originally Posted by arny
My preference is to not learn from experts, but rather to learn from the real world. I first run their advice against the measuring stick of the real world.

Please excuse me for saying this bluntly but that is nonsense
Actually, Arny's approach is quite sound. Unlike you, he doesn't assume that "expert opinion" is always in perfect agreement with the real world.

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“Rail travel at high speed is not possible because passengers, unable to breathe, would die of asphyxia.” – Dr. Dionysius Lardner, 1830
“The world potential market for copying machines is 5000 at most.” — IBM, to the eventual founders of Xerox, saying the photocopier had no market large enough to justify production, 1959
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“We don’t like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out.” – Decca Recording Company on declining to sign the Beatles, 1962
“Television won’t last because people will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night.” – -Darryl Zanuck, movie producer, 20th Century Fox, 1946
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post #1956 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 03:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hevi View Post
And since you're one of the most vocal ABXers, known to man, I guess you can just pour a *****load* worth of links and such to prove your point? In the name of science, of course? No?
ABX was the consequence of attempting to bring a little science to listening tests, which to this day are still mostly done in ways that wide open for false positives and biased outcomes.

As far as the findings of science being provisional until we obtain better findings, that is utterly well known and agreed upon.

A search on findings of science are provisional gives me 16 million + hits. And no, I'm not going to post them into a post for AVS.
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post #1957 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 03:55 PM
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Arny disqualified himself as a listener in post 1736 citing "age and infirmity".

I'll be back later...


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post #1958 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 03:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Isn't this the worst possible time to talk about DBTs? [COLOR="red"]You have not reported on the results of either one of your DBTs in this thread.
Amir, are you just trying to be cruel to an sick old man whose ears are well past their prime or can't you read English?

I've explained my situation quite clearly on this forum. You keep harping on the fact that a lame man isn't entering a lot of 5 kilometer runs. Apparently the logic of that is way over your head.

If being cruel makes you feel good, keep it up. It is soooo good for your image around here! :-(
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post #1959 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post
Actually, Arny's approach is quite sound. Unlike you, he doesn't assume that "expert opinion" is always in perfect agreement with the real world.
Once again the post is modified and then responded to. Nothing was said about "expert opinion always in perfect agreement with real world." Rather, Arny said and I quote: "My preference is to not learn from experts, but rather to learn from the real world." He is saying emphatically that he does not want to learn from experts, period.

Is that your position? That your preferences it to not learn from experts? How did you gather your audio knowledge? All from what you have learned yourself?
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post #1960 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 04:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Once again the post is modified and then responded to. Nothing was said about "expert opinion always in perfect agreement with real world." Rather, Arny said and I quote: "My preference is to not learn from experts, but rather to learn from the real world." He is saying emphatically that he does not want to learn from experts, period.
The above is of course false. Learning from experts is a short cut compared to working everything out for yourself from scratch. The problem is, as you have amply demonstrated with many questionable choices of references, that expert opinion is still just opinion. All experts don't agree and they aren't always right.

Finding expert opinion is not difficult. Cherry picking expert opinion to make yourself look good is not difficult. Finding relevant and accurate expert opinion can take quite a bit of work.
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post #1961 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Nothing was said about "expert opinion always in perfect agreement with real world."
Oh, so you acknowledge that "expert opinion" must be measured against its congruence with the real world, and that the real world is the ultimate reference, not "expert opinion".
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post #1962 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 04:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
Arny disqualified himself as a listener in post 1736 citing "age and infirmity".
Correct and thanks.

This is a link to that post:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...l#post25549801

There have been several other similar posts. The knife is being twisted.

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post #1963 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 04:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post
Oh, so you acknowledge that "expert opinion" must be measured against its congruence with the real world, and that the real world is the ultimate reference, not "expert opinion".
BTW I know two well known experts that were invited to post on a certain forum that was founded by someone we all know and love.

Neither posts there any more and I asked and have been told the reasons why. It basically has to to do with how they were respected and treated.
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post #1964 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
Arny disqualified himself as a listener in post 1736 citing "age and infirmity".
I am one year younger than Arny Krueger, but I published an analysis of my hearing sensitivity in the June issue of Stereophile. Amir has also discussed his upper-frequency hearing limit in this thread. Let's see some data.

I am also waiting for Mr. Krueger to post the promised spectral analysis of the noise floor in his listening room, which others, including me, have done at his suggestion.

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post #1965 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 04:24 PM
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I can identify with lower than average hearing acuity.

Violin can exceed my range, if the player exceeds his fingerboard, and glockenspiel, and possibly Yma Sumac...

The top couple of keys on a piano can sound like 'clunk clunk clunk'.

Interestingly, I can no longer even imagine notes higher than I can hear reliably.

So if we are testing something solely on the basis of HF, my results would certainly be of little value, or skew the results.

--

Anecdote:

Many speakers cross to the tweeter at a range where I hear nothing from the tweeter. This cooled my ardor for better speakers for quite a while.

But, when I heard electrostats, they made me hear what I was missing with cones and domes, to an extent that I don't feel deprived.

That's why I've kept the reQuests (cross at 180hz) for so long, I find them wonderful hearing aids.

--

Moving upscale from an Acurus A250 to my little Krells just made it better, as did going from DAC1 to DAC2. Those top keys are even going ding ding again.

I'll be back later...


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post #1966 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Amir, are you just trying to be cruel to an sick old man whose ears are well past their prime or can't you read English?

I've explained my situation quite clearly on this forum. You keep harping on the fact that a lame man isn't entering a lot of 5 kilometer runs. Apparently the logic of that is way over your head.

If being cruel makes you feel good, keep it up. It is soooo good for your image around here! :-(
Hi Arny. As I said, my own hearing ability has suffered greatly. I am probably twice the age of many members here. Yet, I was 100% willing to run and report the results. Why not show us how far you got?

In the parallel thread, you said this:

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
The fact remains that we have plenty of evidence that 16/44 coding is generally sonically transparent, and there is no such thing as improved sound quality by adding bits or samples. More detailed examination shows that 15 bits and even 14 bits generally provides sonically transparent coding, as do sample rates as low as 32 KHz. Therefore 16/44 is an overkill format.
Would you say the data now says that is completely incorrect? The 32 Khz sample rate was not transparent, right? And I was able to hear the differences between 16/44.1 and 24/96 Khz (with former upsampled) in both your tests and Scott's. So the notion that 15 or 14 bits provide "sonically transparent coding" is also falsified. Agreed?
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post #1967 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So if we are testing something solely on the basis of HF, my results would certainly be of little value, or skew the results.
As I have explained, that is not the case at all. I have very little high frequency hearing ability left much less ultrasonics.

Therefore difference is all in the "normal" audible range. Listen to the 32 Khz samples vs 96 Khz from Arny. I am confident you will hear the difference.
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post #1968 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
As I have explained, that is not the case at all. I have very little high frequency hearing ability left much less ultrasonics.

Therefore difference is all in the "normal" audible range. Listen to the 32 Khz samples vs 96 Khz from Arny. I am confident you will hear the difference.
I can see plasma TVs flickering, most people don't. I can stand in front of a video wall in a Best Buy and pick out all the plasmas vs. LCDs that way. Granted there are fewer and fewer to choose from these days. The point is, much like some people are sensitive to DLP rainbows (I am) and plasma flicker, perhaps you really are sensitive to the specific kind of audio distortions you say are a dead giveaway.

Without further analysis of your testing process, it's impossible for me to ascertain what the difference is. If I listened to your laptop rig, would I pass the test with flying colors? Or would I be stuck guessing while you nail each selection? How come none of the various headphones and sources I own do the trick? Perhaps I will never hear what you hear, no matter how much I train my hearing. Just like I know that most of the people I meet will never see a plasma flickering, no matter how obvious it is to me.

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Last edited by imagic; 07-14-2014 at 05:47 PM.
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post #1969 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 05:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
I am one year younger than Arny Krueger, but I published an analysis of my hearing sensitivity in the June issue of Stereophile. Amir has also discussed his upper-frequency hearing limit in this thread. Let's see some data.

I am also waiting for Mr. Krueger to post the promised spectral analysis of the noise floor in his listening room, which others, including me, have done at his suggestion.
Lack of good faith noted with abusive treatment of my hearing limitations.
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post #1970 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
As I have explained, that is not the case at all. I have very little high frequency hearing ability left much less ultrasonics.

Therefore difference is all in the "normal" audible range. Listen to the 32 Khz samples vs 96 Khz from Arny. I am confident you will hear the difference.
Are those the key-jangling files?

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post #1971 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Are those the key-jangling files?
Yes.
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post #1972 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 05:27 PM
 
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Hi Arny. As I said, my own hearing ability has suffered greatly. I am probably twice the age of many members here. Yet, I was 100% willing to run and report the results. Why not show us how far you got?
Asked and answered.

Quote:
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The 32 Khz sample rate was not transparent, right?
I don't know. There is a near-total lack of reliable evidence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
And I was able to hear the differences between 16/44.1 and 24/96 Khz (with former upsampled) in both your tests and Scott's. So the notion that 15 or 14 bits provide "sonically transparent coding" is also falsified. Agreed?
I suspect that there is a good possibility that your monitoring environment has audible high frequency IM, which if true would mean that you were able to do what you did because of the failings of your monitoring environment. Prove that it is clean.

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post #1973 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
So if we are testing something solely on the basis of HF, my results would certainly be of little value, or skew the results.
Floyd Toole's work showed - damn I am appealing to authority again! - showed that presbycusis is not so much of a problem when it comes to consistent and repeatable listening test ability as much as hearing damage at lower frequencies, such as that due to impulsive sounds, like gunshots. Poppy Crum of Johns Hopkins and Dolby - oops, appeal to authority again - gave a very interesting paper on this subject at the New York AES convention in, IIRC, 2011.

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Last edited by stereoeditor; 07-15-2014 at 05:46 AM. Reason: Forgot to make it clear it was an Audio Engineering Society convention
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post #1974 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 05:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
Floyd Toole's work showed - damn I am appealing to authority again! - showed that presbycusis is not so much of a problem when it comes to consistent and repeatable listening test ability as much as hearing damage at lower frequencies, such as that due to impulsive sounds, like gunshots. Poppy Crum of Johns Hopkins and Dolby - oops, appeal to authority again - gave a very interesting paper on this subject at the New York convention in, IIRC, 2011.
When I served in the US Army (drafted) in the 1960s they had no clue about hearing protection. I qualified with 3 different firearms, worked on firing ranges, and worked routinely for about 30 months in a very noisy environment. While any damage that may have related to those experiences did not seem to hurt my hearing acuity that much when I was younger, these days things are far worse.

I now struggle to hear the effects of an 8 KHz brick wall filter at normal listening levels. So while Floyd Tooles comments may relate to Amir and you John, some of us did not have such protected lives, no fault of our own.
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post #1975 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 06:00 PM
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Ok, played them randomly in foobar for a while, stood in front of the system, the DEQ2496 is displaying the spectrum of sound in the room.

I don't think I can discern much. The spectral display shows the HF missing in action on some of them, but the real energy in all of them is above my horribly foreshortened range.

So I jangled a handful of keys on a keyring, live... Similar sound (or lack thereof, in my case).

Not really being able to tell at what volume the files were being played, I cranked it up to where my other visual indication says "There's some really loud stuff happening now" - some leds that are wired to the speaker cables - more power equals more bright - and the power draw from the bias increase on the amplifiers at the kill-a-watt meter...

I fail.

"Loud sounds pain me, soft sounds escape me" - Ludwig Van Beethoven

It kept me out of the Army, so it can't be all bad.

Mother has a similar deficit, I blame her.

Even when very young, I remember the Sonic Spectacular Test LP Glide Tone far exceeded my range, so, this is nothing new to me. Dad could hear more of it.

I'll be back later...


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post #1976 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
I don't know. There is a near-total lack of reliable evidence.
I am disappointed to hear this comment Arny. I didn't ask for the test. You created one on your own and then challenged us to run it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
I say, let people believe the evidence of their ears.

There's a new batch of 24/96 files with brick walls @ 48, 22 and 16 Khz posted at https://www.dropbox.com/sh/l86f7oc7c...ww14Mrta1zs3Ca.

ABX away, but at your own risk! ;-)
The comment "at your own risk" implies that you were sure we would fail. But I didn't:

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

32 Khz versus 96 Khz
=================================
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/09 06:10:07

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

----------
Total: 13/13 (0.0%)


44.1 versus 96 Khz
---------------------------------

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/09 06:32:02

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling band resolution limited 4416 2496.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

----------
Total: 7/7 (0.8%)
It is pretty black and white Arny. You created the test, challenged us to tell the difference and I was able to clearly do so. And I was not the only one. Frank did that too on 32 Khz.

And you conclude that this is "near-total lack of reliable evidence?" So even when we do everything as you challenge us to do, you disown the results this way? Honestly we lost a ton of our credibility when I showed the results above. What was left there is now evaporating.

Let me know what other thoughts you have that would be more damaging to our cause....
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post #1977 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 06:44 PM
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Here's how I did on what should be the easiest test...

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/11 20:36:03

File A: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav
File B: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

20:36:03 : Test started.
20:37:08 : 00/01 100.0%
20:38:14 : 01/02 75.0%
20:39:19 : 01/03 87.5%
20:39:56 : 02/04 68.8%
20:40:17 : 02/05 81.3%
20:40:39 : 02/06 89.1%
20:41:13 : 02/07 93.8%
20:41:40 : 03/08 85.5%
20:42:09 : 03/09 91.0%
20:42:39 : 04/10 82.8%
20:42:55 : 05/11 72.6%
20:43:13 : 06/12 61.3%
20:44:03 : 06/13 70.9%
20:44:32 : 06/14 78.8%
20:45:55 : 07/15 69.6%
20:46:15 : 08/16 59.8%
20:46:31 : 08/17 68.5%
20:46:51 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 8/17 (68.5%)

Mark Henninger
Editor, AVS Forum
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post #1978 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
When I served in the US Army (drafted) in the 1960s they had no clue about hearing protection. I qualified with 3 different firearms, worked on firing ranges, and worked routinely for about 30 months in a very noisy environment. While any damage that may have related to those experiences did not seem to hurt my hearing acuity that much when I was younger, these days things are far worse.
I feel bad for you Arny. I wonder though about the timeline here. In the parallel thread you said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Full disclosure - I just came off a 12 year stint of mixing live sound for the a mid-sized venue and recording music festivals for hire.
So for the last 12 years you have been mixing live sound. For what portion of that time did you have this severe hearing damage? And why did it not interfere with you getting these jobs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arny
I now struggle to hear the effects of an 8 KHz brick wall filter at normal listening levels. So while Floyd Tooles comments may relate to Amir and you John, some of us did not have such protected lives, no fault of our own.
Protected life? When I was the age you were in the military, I was taken hostage by aliens. They took me to their spaceship and subjected me to excruciating sounds. I am lucky they dumped me near Area 51 where the Army doctors managed to salvage what little was left of my hearing. That is why I can't hear high frequencies. Then again, maybe they implanted something in my ear (or brain???) that allows me to hear the difference between these files that others cannot???

Wonder what other powers I might have that I have not yet discovered.....
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post #1979 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I can see plasma TVs flickering, most people don't. I can stand in front of a video wall in a Best Buy and pick out all the plasmas vs. LCDs that way. Granted there are fewer and fewer to choose from these days. The point is, much like some people are sensitive to DLP rainbows (I am) and plasma flicker, perhaps you really are sensitive to the specific kind of audio distortions you say are a dead giveaway.
So why think that we all hear audio fidelity the same? isn't that the argument you are supporting? Can others be sensitive to it or do you believe my story of abduction by aliens?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark
Without further analysis of your testing process, it's impossible for me to ascertain what the difference is. If I listened to your laptop rig, would I pass the test with flying colors?
Yes, but you also need my ears. And the implant....

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark
Or would I be stuck guessing while you nail each selection? How come none of the various headphones and sources I own do the trick? Perhaps I will never hear what you hear, no matter how much I train my hearing. Just like I know that most of the people I meet will never see a plasma flickering, no matter how obvious it is to me.
Except that Frank also reliably heard the difference at 32 Khz. Now, he could have also be subjected to alien torture practices. There is always the probably of that.

BTW, I too see plasma flicker, DLP rainbows, chromatic aberrations of the lens, panel misalignment in 3-chippers, ringing, etc. Did I tell you that aliens subjected me to flashing lights too????
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post #1980 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 07:51 PM
 
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stereoeditor, perhaps you missed my question earlier so I'll ask again, regarding the post number 1838, what's wrong with "high levels of jitter-related artifacts"?
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