coaxial cabl vs RCA cable - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 90 Old 08-29-2014, 07:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
Near as i can tell the only relevant remaining spec for rg6 is 18 gauge conductor. Given that the belden pdf did not on quick review mention rg6 and states the conductor is 24 gauge if somebody calls it mini rg6 it is very loose marketingspeak. All 75 ohm cable is not rg6. Similarities between some non rg6 cable and and something meeting the rg6 spec does not make it rg6. Aiui, over 90percent of my dna is identical to that of a rat. I am not a rat and rats are not human despite significsnt similarities in our dna. See?
Perhaps it would behoove us all, if you read every word of the spec document and then went on to visit other such vendors specifications of the same cable type. They can all pass AES or SPDIF...

Its about bandwidth, which is the product of more then the gauge of a cables primary conductor. The a cables egression and permitted ingressions (current requirements aside); the smaller the primary conductor or conductors can be.

Solid core Cat5E can pass it all! As can stranded Cat5 E, or higher! As an easily verifiable fact, mogmai, monster, canare, belden, west penn, delco, whirlwind and others that I cannot recall at this moment all make multi-stranded, multi-conductor, twisted pair, AES/EBU digital audio cables. Which can be terminated to any TS or TRS connector in the world!

Have a look: http://www.mogamicable.com/category/...rface/aes_ebu/ be sure to scroll down the page and read everything, and the debate should com to an end.

Please stop talking about rats and DNA and read the spec, or look up others. Or remain in the dark, but please stop injecting false truths into this thread, as it may actually mislead some members and onlookers, from outside the body of membership.

I am right and everyone else that has posted in opposition to me, is wrong!
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post #32 of 90 Old 08-29-2014, 08:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by audio2xs View Post
Could be a case of "everyone is right". In the PDF above, there is no reference to the RG-6 specification.

However, the RG-6 specs are fairly generic, and no proof of anything except the size of the inner conductor. Simply stating a cable as "Mini RG-6 Type" gets everyone off the hook, and also retains a wonderful state of ambiguity.

It seems Belden doesn't mention "mini RG-6" specifically. But there are lots of 75 Ohm cables that are smaller than a real RG-6, thus making them "mini', and retaining a resemblance to at least one property of RG-6.

So yes, there is no such thing as "mini RG-6", and yes, many brands have a product they call "mini RG-6" for some reason or other.

I couldn't verify this.

Well sure, but there is a range from excellent to horrible within available, so-called "RG-6". Just the designation guarantees very little, probably that its sort of close to 75 ohms.


With RG-6 being defined by at least a dozen separate specifications, you'd think "mini" would be in there somewhere. But no. So, RG-6 is now a marketing term. Consider, how are you going to market a mini 75 ohm cable to someone who barely knows which end of the crimp tool to hold? They already know RG-6...
Now you're coming around!

So perhaps we should start referring to cables by there qualities of electrical transfer function, and stop using generic terminology, or just categorical terminology, then arguing about meanings, applications and terminations, etc..., for 100 postings or so.

It's kind of silly when it's so clearly evidenced, isn't it!

So - what was the original question? LOL

Sorry OP, I have no idea if you've been able to see clearly through our rainfall of BS. But I think the rain clouds are clearing.

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post #33 of 90 Old 08-29-2014, 08:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Garidy View Post
Now you're coming around!

So perhaps we should start referring to cables by there qualities of electrical transfer function, and stop using generic terminology, or categorical terminology, then arguing about meanings, applications and terminations, etc..., for 100 postings or so.

It's kind of silly when it's so clearly evidenced, isn't it!
There are a few of us who never have take a generic spec on face value, though. Since I can remember, there's been a lot of wiggle room within any generic cable type, and it's always taken a bit of digging to figure out what you're really getting.

I do still find the reference to a "mini RG6" disconcerting, since there's no part of the RG6 spec other than 75 ohms, that it would match.

Then again, we've been tossing around RG-6 as 75 ohms pretty confidently...when that's not technically even a 75 ohm cable spec! RG-6 is 76 ohms, RG-6A is 75 ohms.

How's that for nit-picky?
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post #34 of 90 Old 08-29-2014, 08:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by audio2xs View Post
There are a few of us who never have take a generic spec on face value, though. Since I can remember, there's been a lot of wiggle room within any generic cable type, and it's always taken a bit of digging to figure out what you're really getting.

I do still find the reference to a "mini RG6" disconcerting, since there's no part of the RG6 spec other than 75 ohms, that it would match.

Then again, we've been tossing around RG-6 as 75 ohms pretty confidently...when that's not technically even a 75 ohm cable spec! RG-6 is 76 ohms, RG-6A is 75 ohms.

How's that for nit-picky?
I'm liking it!

And all of your points are well taken, as well!
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post #35 of 90 Old 08-29-2014, 09:00 PM
 
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Belden showed up on the 3rd page for me?

http://www.belden.com/docs/upload/np198.pdf
No where on that page does it mention RG6

Quote:
RG6 is a general term, which defines a minimum class of analog and digital performances.
No, it isn't. It's a specific type of 75 Ohm coax cable.

I think you're too arrogant to admit that you really don't have much of a clue.
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post #36 of 90 Old 08-29-2014, 09:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post
No where on that page does it mention RG6



No, it isn't. It's a specific type of 75 Ohm coax cable.

I think you're too arrogant to admit that you really don't have much of a clue.
Oh Sam, you're so funny!
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post #37 of 90 Old 08-29-2014, 10:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post
No where on that page does it mention RG6



No, it isn't. It's a specific type of 75 Ohm coax cable.
Or a 76 ohm coax cable...but what's an ohm or two among friends?
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I think you're too arrogant to admit that you really don't have much of a clue.
Ah yes, NOW I remember the good ol' AVS!

Angry, Vehement Sages...what say?
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post #38 of 90 Old 08-30-2014, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Garidy View Post
Perhaps it would behoove us all, if you read every word of the spec document and then went on to visit other such vendors specifications of the same cable type. They can all pass AES or SPDIF...

Its about bandwidth, which is the product of more then the gauge of a cables primary conductor. The a cables egression and permitted ingressions (current requirements aside); the smaller the primary conductor or conductors can be.

Solid core Cat5E can pass it all! As can stranded Cat5 E, or higher! As an easily verifiable fact, mogmai, monster, canare, belden, west penn, delco, whirlwind and others that I cannot recall at this moment all make multi-stranded, multi-conductor, twisted pair, AES/EBU digital audio cables. Which can be terminated to any TS or TRS connector in the world!

Have a look: http://www.mogamicable.com/category/...rface/aes_ebu/ be sure to scroll down the page and read everything, and the debate should com to an end.

Please stop talking about rats and DNA and read the spec, or look up others. Or remain in the dark, but please stop injecting false truths into this thread, as it may actually mislead some members and onlookers, from outside the body of membership.

I am right and everyone else that has posted in opposition to me, is wrong!
What are you rambling on about here?

So you are now saying that CAT5 cable can carry 110ohm AES? OK, Who here said it couldn't? It's not done IME, but it would work so what's your point? You take us next to a Mogami 110ohm AES cable spec sheet. So what does this prove? I don't recall anyone saying 110ohm AES doesn't exist, only that 110ohm AES is losing ground to the 75ohm AES3-ID version in new installations. That's a fact. I do this for a living.

The only person injecting false claims into this thread is you. And any novice reading through this thread will clearly see that.

You come into this forum representing yourself as a subject matter expert touting highly technical terms, but when the true SME's here correct you it's now just a figure of speech on your part and we should all overlook that? This is the AVS SCIENCE forum. Accuracy in posting here should be held to the highest standards possible. What if somebody reading this were to go out and try to buy "mini RG6"? Who knows what they'll get. So I don't see where this so called nitpicking is harmful at all. Quite the opposite on a public information forum

BTW, what ever happened to that big amplifier shootout you were going to do over a month ago and show us all how it's done right? How's that coming?

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post #39 of 90 Old 08-30-2014, 01:34 PM
 
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You guys are confirming my definition of AVS!
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post #40 of 90 Old 08-30-2014, 01:34 PM
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I'm liking it!

And all of your points are well taken, as well!
What he said seems perfectly consistent with what I said. Hahaha. Make up your mind.
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post #41 of 90 Old 08-30-2014, 01:39 PM
 
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What he said seems perfectly consistent with what I said. Hahaha. Make up your mind.
“ I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant”


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post #42 of 90 Old 08-30-2014, 06:04 PM
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The switch to RG6x was made in part, if not largely, due to the larger center conductor. It does a better job of providing power to dish-mounted LNA/LNBs. RG79x ruled before that. Specs are virtually identical. Different flavors of each use different dielectrics. Never heard of "mini" RG6. Not sure what the RG6 debate has to do with the original question, but that's life in Internet Fora-ville.

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post #43 of 90 Old 08-30-2014, 06:17 PM
 
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The switch to RG6x was made in part, if not largely, due to the larger center conductor. It does a better job of providing power to dish-mounted LNA/LNBs. RG79x ruled before that. Specs are virtually identical. Different flavors of each use different dielectrics. Never heard of "mini" RG6. Not sure what the RG6 debate has to do with the original question, but that's life in Internet Fora-ville.
You saying that the inner on RG79 (22ga) vs RG6 (21ga) was the driving force behind that change? A difference of 3.3 ohms per 1K ft at DC? Hmmm! RG79 had 1dB less loss pr 100' at 400MHz...not that it matters...
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post #44 of 90 Old 08-30-2014, 06:31 PM
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I'd have to check my references for detailed specs. Most satellite systems spec'd RG6 partly for the extra DC current-carrying capacity for the dish-mounted amplifier. Power is/was routed from the box inside the house to the amplifier on the external dish. There are a few other construction differences. You are free to believe what you want, or ask another RF engineer. Cable delivery systems are not my specialty; I was given that information a long time ago by a buddy who designed them.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #45 of 90 Old 08-30-2014, 06:32 PM
 
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For those of whom that are having difficulty understanding the central theme of my activities and postings within this thread, they were made abundantly clear in POST #32 .

I encourage all to read it, or re-read it, before commenting further. If after doing so, you still fail to understand, then that's where you will stand, as the rest of us move on.

Glimmie, this goes double for you! And I have no idea who you have confused me with, when you stated:
"BTW, what ever happened to that big amplifier shootout you were going to do over a month ago and show us all how it's done right? How's that coming?"

If I have made such a promise and have failed to deliver, I apologize, as I have clearly forgotten about it, but... I don't recall making such a promise!

Perhaps you can provide us all with a link?
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post #46 of 90 Old 08-30-2014, 06:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
I'd have to check my references for detailed specs. Most satellite systems spec'd RG6 partly for the extra DC current-carrying capacity for the dish-mounted amplifier. Power is/was routed from the box inside the house to the amplifier on the external dish. There are a few other construction differences. You are free to believe what you want, or ask another RF engineer. Cable delivery systems are not my specialty; I was given that information a long time ago by a buddy who designed them.
The geometries and dielectrics were changed to accommodate carrier frequencies up 2.4 GHz, over the 1GHz stable utilization of RG59 variants.

DC was and remains a secondary consideration. 13/18 VDC respectively with 300 to 500mA draw. All consumer grade LNB's are fused at 1 amp DC... so current is truly a non-factor...

Like I said, in post #32 , it's time to stop guessing, making things up and speaking in just general terms about very specific statements, questions and technologies, in general.

Moving forward, I will correct everyone with acute detail until everyone gets on board or steps-off!

Don, I know that you know your stuff, and that this is merely a clumsy series of posting from you. And I will add that you qualified your position as to warn that you may be incorrect... My point is if you don't know, for sure, don't chime in; especially when a thread is at the edge of boiling over!

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post #47 of 90 Old 08-30-2014, 07:19 PM
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I stand corrected. RG59, not RG79, is what I had in mind (I was recently looking at RG79 for another application as it has half the capacitance of RG59/RG6 and it was not for a matched environment). RG6 does indeed have much less loss at higher frequencies. The cables I use in my work target much higher frequency so it's been a while, foggy memory. Having been put in my place by Garidy I shall bow out.

p.s. A quick look at current Belden products shows 23 AWG center for RG79, 18 AWG for RG6, so my buddy was probably correct.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

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post #48 of 90 Old 08-30-2014, 07:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
I stand corrected. RG59, not RG79, is what I had in mind (I was recently looking at RG79 for another application as it has half the capacitance of RG59/RG6 and it was not for a matched environment). RG6 does indeed have much less loss at higher frequencies. The cables I use in my work target much higher frequency so it's been a while, foggy memory. Having been put in my place by Garidy I shall bow out.

p.s. A quick look at current Belden products shows 23 AWG center for RG79, 18 AWG for RG6, so my buddy was probably correct.
Don please accept my apology. I was feeling somewhat incensed by Glimmie, and it seems those feelings infected my last few postings (I am only human). I am aware of your back ground and who you are, and I, by no means have the same level of understandings, with regards RF, as a whole that you do.

Please accept my untoward push back.
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post #49 of 90 Old 08-30-2014, 08:22 PM
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RE: The DC DBS cable issue:

The DC issue with DBS antennas was over the use of copper clad steel RG6 and distances of over 100 feet. Copper clad steel RG6 is very popular in the CATV industry as it is physically stronger when used as lead in from the pole to a building. As there was nothing of interest below approx 40mhz on cable systems, skin effect was used to it's advantage in this application. However the copper clad steel starts to provide significant resistance to the DC power up to the dish LNB on even routine runs.

As for RG59, DBS antennas use L-Band as the first IF frequency. That's approx 1200 to 1400 mhz. This is pushing it for standard RG59. Newer digital video RG59 types such as Belden 1505 would be OK but they cost more than generic RG6. And as the CATV industry already uses so much RG6, it's just easier and cheaper for the DBS guys to go along.

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post #50 of 90 Old 08-30-2014, 09:35 PM
 
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The DC issue with DBS antennas was over the use of copper clad steel RG6 and distances of over 100 feet. Copper clad steel RG6 is very popular in the CATV industry as it is physically stronger when used as lead in from the pole to a building. As there was nothing of interest below approx 40mhz on cable systems, skin effect was used to it's advantage in this application. However the copper clad steel starts to provide significant resistance to the DC power up to the dish LNB on even routine runs.

As for RG59, DBS antennas use L-Band as the first IF frequency. That's approx 1200 to 1400 mhz. This is pushing it for standard RG59. Newer digital video RG59 types such as Belden 1505 would be OK but they cost more than generic RG6. And as the CATV industry already uses so much RG6, it's just easier and cheaper for the DBS guys to go along.
True story!
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post #51 of 90 Old 08-30-2014, 10:36 PM
 
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I stand corrected. RG59, not RG79, is what I had in mind (I was recently looking at RG79 for another application as it has half the capacitance of RG59/RG6 and it was not for a matched environment). RG6 does indeed have much less loss at higher frequencies. The cables I use in my work target much higher frequency so it's been a while, foggy memory. Having been put in my place by Garidy I shall bow out.

p.s. A quick look at current Belden products shows 23 AWG center for RG79, 18 AWG for RG6, so my buddy was probably correct.
Right on the AWG, I had it wrong. No wonder it was so hard to find anything about RG79!
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post #52 of 90 Old 08-31-2014, 08:05 AM
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There's no such thing as "mini RG-6". Any company which uses such a term is using marketing speak.


The central conductor and dielectric thickness dimensions are very specific and you can't shrink them without altering the 75 ohm impedance, yet still use the standard PE insulator every RG6 does, although the shielding outer thickness can differ; the shielding can be beefed up to "quad shielding", for instance. Any shrinking of the conductor or dielectric size, shrinking to make it "mini" also makes it no longer RG-6.


Here's the regular, not quad sheilded RG-6/U variety:

Quad shielded, RG-6/UQ has four shields, of course, so the overall outer jacket if thicker but the wire's internal structure under the shielding is the same.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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post #53 of 90 Old 08-31-2014, 09:49 AM
 
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it's time to stop guessing, making things up and speaking in just general terms about very specific statements, questions and technologies, in general.
Yes, please take your own advice
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post #54 of 90 Old 08-31-2014, 09:52 AM
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Re. RG79: It is a rather odd-ball cable, 125 ohm impedance, but only ~10 pF C' instead of the typical ~21 pF C' for RG59/RG6/etc. IIRC! I was using it for the lower capacitance and had it in mind so mistakenly typed that instead of RG59. RG79 targets applications other than video (CCTV/CATV) and standard (50-ohm) RF.

There are small 75-ohm cables but they are not RG6. AFAIK. As I , and others, have said it is not something I have thought a lot about lately.

We laid out several $k for a couple of Gore or Microcoax cables (forget which); wonder how they'd sound in my stereo? Of course they are nowhere near as expensive as some of the audiophile cables around. Heck, even our reference $1200 (each) mmW connectors (no cable, just the connectors) pale in comparison to the cost of some speaker cables. Chances are the speaker cables don't sound as good at 50+ GHz, however.

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post #55 of 90 Old 08-31-2014, 12:41 PM
 
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Yes, please take your own advice
Indeed I should; as we all should, which was and remains my primary point in the exercise...

Others are clearly coming alongside, yet you prefer to missed the point and sling mud instead, and it seems that Bill likes your behavior, so this suggest to me that we will see similar comments from Bill as well.

A Quote from Bill: " Technically there's no such thing as 'RCA cable'. The plugs are RCA. Interconnect cables using RCA plugs are often called RCA cables, but that's a misnomer, they're correctly referred to coaxial cables with RCA terminations. Line level signals can be run to 100 feet with no ill effect. "

I guess that we should all prepare for more Cheese!

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post #56 of 90 Old 08-31-2014, 02:26 PM
 
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The central conductor and dielectric thickness dimensions are very specific and you can't shrink them without altering the 75 ohm impedance...
That is not correct. The characteristic impedance of a cable depends not only on the dielectric thickness but its dielectric constant. The latter is a property of the material used for the insulation between the center conductor and the shield. Change that and you change the impedance. This is why you can get wildly different sized capacitors for the exact same capacitor value because their construction material differs. Here is the formula:



"k" is the parameter I described.
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post #57 of 90 Old 08-31-2014, 03:48 PM
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amirm is correct about impedence.

As an example, I used a lot of different types of 50 ohm cable in my two way radio work. The bottom line was"The bigger the cable, the less the loss".

His comment on capacitor's size also should of also mentioned voltage rating.

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post #58 of 90 Old 08-31-2014, 04:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
There's no such thing as "mini RG-6". Any company which uses such a term is using marketing speak.


The central conductor and dielectric thickness dimensions are very specific and you can't shrink them without altering the 75 ohm impedance, except the shielding can differ; the shielding can be beefed up to "quad shielding", for instance. Any shrinking of the conductor or dielectric size, shrinking to make it "mini" also makes it no longer RG-6.


Here's the regular, not quad sheilded RG-6/U variety:

Quad shielded, RG-6/UQ has four shields, of course, so the overall outer jacket if thicker but the wire's internal structure under the shielding is the same.
Sorry mate, simply not so: http://www.belden.com/docs/upload/np198.pdf this is a 75-ohm cable, and it's listed as a mini coax.

This coax cable meets and exceeds any RG 6 Type of coax (Radio Guide - CCTV, SDI or CATV) performance specifications, and it's definitely miniaturized, physically. Please read the entire specification, it clearly lists all of the bandwidth and performances within each. In AV applications, there isn't currently, a signal that it cannot transport, as good or better than any RG 6 or 59 listed coaxial. These listings are based on performance criteria's that mirror requirements setout for Military applications in the 1950's. The application dictates the retained bandwidth requirements, which in turn dictate the cable selection.

So referring to it as a mini RG 6 or 59, is nothing more than stating that it's able to at least meet said bandwidth requirements, in a smaller package. However, it may not be suitable for all applications such as burial, use in cable trays, high DC deliveries, etc., but it might. In the context of residential AV, this cable can do it all and can do it in a smaller package.

In this link you will discover that Belden has a lot of variations for the same category of cables, inclusive of mini coaxial offerings, some with actual RG listings:
http://www.belden.com/resourcecenter...ad/06-3_15.pdf

Let's not fight over nomenclature; the RG specifications for 59 & 6 types, can be met in smaller, coaxial cables, of superior design.

Last edited by Garidy; 08-31-2014 at 04:19 PM.
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post #59 of 90 Old 08-31-2014, 04:22 PM
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There's no such thing as "mini RG6". Proving there are other cables with 75 ohm impedance which are thinner gauge, such as RG59, proves nothing. The differences, such as RG6's lower signal loss per foot, which can be key in long runs, are outlined here:
http://sewelldirect.com/articles/rg59-or-rg6.aspx

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

Last edited by m. zillch; 08-31-2014 at 04:31 PM.
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post #60 of 90 Old 08-31-2014, 04:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
There's no such thing as "mini RG6". Proving there are other cables with 75 ohm impedance which are thinner, such as RG59, proves nothing. The differences, such as signal loss which can be key in long runs, are outlined here:
http://sewelldirect.com/articles/rg59-or-rg6.aspx
Wow that was a fast reply...

Fair enough, lets agree to disagree then!

Just one strange occurrence however, millions of feet are shipped daily of RG6 U75 Mini Coax. I don't know how to explain the existence of all of the suppliers that are claiming to sell it... Another great AVS mystery I guess?
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