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post #271 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Well said. I grabbed a shot of Mark at the New York Audio show with his tape measure:
That's impossible since I doubt any measurement gear other than the word count of a magazine writers superfluous word dictionary is allowed anywhere in the room.

I'm assuming the larger the dictionary the better treatment one receives.

What was that pass called you said you received again for those shows there Amir?

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post #272 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
I see you linked to images from Floyd Toole's terrific article, and that is exactly what I am talking about with respect to not having to be a audio scientist to get the principles of audio science. Just like you don't have to be an evolutionary biologist to grasp the principles of natural selection or not having to be an astrophysicist to accept the idea of a heliocentric solar system.
No, these are for the Curt Campbell Statements that I built. Www.SpeakerDesignworks.com

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post #273 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 02:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
Mark didn't pretend to write a scientific paper for publication in the JAES.
Neither did the reporter for stereophile which was the criticism made against.

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I don't know why you are slamming him so much. His article was entirely a subjective experience. That he found some cheap speakers sounded as good as some expensive speakers shouldn't be a big point of contention.
Tell me, how much slamming would I get if I walked around the show, shared my subjective experience as article here, saying an expensive cable sounded night and day better than another?

Quote:
Sure, he attributed the fact that his preferred listening experiences were likely due to those setups adherence to more objective principles in audio science...
Not at all. He may have claimed such but there is no science in anything he wrote. It is an opinion piece, driven by strong bias against the high-end audio market. As I said, if he had marked it that way, all would be well. Instead, he says he is giving us a "reality check." A reality check that is devoid of any audio science and has as its only data point, Mark listening to different systems, with different content, in different rooms is not a reality check.

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, but I don't remember him making any kind of absolute claims based on his experience.
The title of this thread: The New York Audio Show 2014: Reality Check . I can show you more but this alone should suffice.

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For the record, as much as I like the Hsu speakers, I think a properly setup pair of Focal Stelle Utopias could easily outperform them, and the problems at the NY Audio Show were calibration related. What he is saying is well-setup Hsu speakers > poorly setup Stella Utopias. That is certainly plausible.
There is no objective data whatsoever that says the Utopias did not sound as good or even blow away the Hsu. We have Mark saying that. But that has no weight in my book, or his own when he says he takes show reports with a grain of salt. Except somehow, other than me no one wants to take it as grain of salt. His article was yet another data point for many folks that high-end doesn't mean higher performance. We ran off with a completely non-verified data point, which was not backed by any scientific facts, solely on the basis of the equipment being cheap. You all can do that. Don't ask me to do the same .
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post #274 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 03:03 PM
 
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BTW, let me repeat that Mark could not be a nicer person. He is taking all of my comments while keeping his cool, which impresses me to no end. My posts are not personal. And I am not just responding to him, but the countless others who have agreed with him. As a group, you stink. Individually, you do not.
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post #275 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Actually, Amir stated it was not the same speaker in his post. My point was that he never presented the measurements of the speaker he is disparaging.
My apologies to Amir. I speed-read several pages and missed that.

On the other hand, this means Amir knowingly threw a red herring into the discussion and admitted doing so. Not very scientific, eh Amir?
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post #276 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
...
Tell me, how much slamming would I get if I walked around the show, shared my subjective experience as article here, saying an expensive cable sounded night and day better than another?
...

There is no objective data whatsoever that says the Utopias did not sound as good or even blow away the Hsu. We have Mark saying that. But that has no weight in my book, or his own when he says he takes show reports with a grain of salt. Except somehow, other than me no one wants to take it as grain of salt. His article was yet another data point for many folks that high-end doesn't mean higher performance. We ran off with a completely non-verified data point, which was not backed by any scientific facts, solely on the basis of the equipment being cheap. You all can do that. Don't ask me to do the same .
Well, since most of us understand that speakers can and do sound different, his claim is at least plausible. Your hypothetical claim about an expensive cable sounding night and day better goes against well-understood science and, as such, would be subject to skepticism.

As for the 2nd paragraph, who is "we?" Yes, several posters have taken his observation as "fact" and run with it. But many others have done nothing of the sort. You're projecting and arguing against your projection. I'm pretty sure there's a phrase for that.
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post #277 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post
My apologies to Amir. I speed-read several pages and missed that.

On the other hand, this means Amir knowingly threw a red herring into the discussion and admitted doing so. Not very scientific, eh Amir?
Wait till he starts showing you Jitter measurements of a 1998 state of the art Pro-Audio sound card.
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post #278 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 03:39 PM
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I really can't believe how defensive some are in this thread. I was there with Mark. I have been an audiophile since the mid 70's as a teenager. Started buying equipment after law school in the early 80's. I have been to countless shows, CES, etc. I am a friend of Mark's and we visited many of the rooms together. No we didn't take measurements. I bring a trusted CD that is well recorded with excellent dynamics. As I have posted before, I didn't like the Focal rooms at all. At this show, in these rooms and with this equipment, I didn't like one room and hated the other. I have damn good but very reasonably priced equipment, some of it even used. I choose to spend my money on traveling the world not audio equipment. Call me crazy if you must. Nevertheless, I am thrilled with the sound I get at home. I have heard some very nice ultra high end stuff over the years. This show, not so much. Maybe it was the rooms or the set up, but stuff this expensive should sound at the worst, pretty good in any show room. Some exhibitors did, like Gamut where the system was as I recall $70,000. Excellent sound. So was the Sony room. So was the Hsu room. Would I swap out my rig for the Hsu rig? No. It was not THAT good. What it was was very listenable, enjoyable, smooth, excellent tonal balance, tight bass. Sounded like music. Was it the last word in dynamics, detail, soundstage, etc. No. But, and this is a big but, is was so much more enjoyable to listen to than most of the other rooms with much more expensive equipment in a similar room. I was very contented listening there in the sweet spot. No need to take measurements, plot graphs etc. Do we need to do that when looking at a woman to determine if she is attractive to us. Do I really need to take measurements to conclude that Kate Middleton is HOT and KIM K is NOT? Beauty is in the eye (and here the ears) of the beholder. Do we take out a tape measure and measure all her curves, her shoe size and the like? NO, we use our senses, which its what we did at the show and we made our judgments based on what we experienced. Audio is supposed to be fun. Reading some of these posts here takes the fun out of the hobby. Buy what you like, spend $100,000 if you want and can. But most of all, please enjoy the music. That is what I try to do. Audio is not life and death. I do not attain self worth over what kind of equipment I have.

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post #279 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 03:50 PM
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"NO, we use our senses"

Can't do that here and not be subjected to gang-bang of ridicule if you aren't listening to an AVR.
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post #280 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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The thing is, here's what I said in the article...

"Hsu managed to present a demo that was just as profound as the monster systems. I dare say that, during some classical orchestral music, the bass beat any of the 2-channel systems, price being no object!"

I did not say that Hsu's speakers blew away the Focals. I did not say it was the Focals that sounded bad, maybe it was the tube amps, or the source, or (if you believe some audiophiles) perhaps I just don't like the "character" of the cables they used.

I said the Hsu system, which of course includes a sub as well as the inexpensive 2-ways, sounded as good to my ears as some much larger, more expensive speakers systems and their associated amps/preamps/sources. A lot of that had to do with the quality of the bass, and the fact Hsu's speakers outperformed for their size/price, which numerous critics have acknowledged.

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post #281 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 04:04 PM
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Mark, don't let facts get in the way!
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post #282 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
...I was very clear that this was the Rev 1 of the HB-1 speaker. How else did you want me to acknowledge it? BTW I don't call Rev 1 and 2 of a speaker different models if the manufacturer did not designate them as such.
Why post measurements from a different speaker? The current iteration is the MK2, which is what Mark heard at the show.

You later posted:

There are many speakers that go through design changes and offer different performance.

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post #283 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 04:09 PM
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^ And indeed the mk2 is much better, exactly as Hsu has said since it uses a different tweeter.


Here's the HB-1 Mk2 version of the Hsu, grills off, on-axis and the nearly identical 30 degrees off axis :



Not perfect, but the overall response is the flattest I can recall ever seeing for such a low priced speaker ($150).
Source: http://stereomojo.com/HSU%20HB1%20Mk...akerReview.htm
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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post #284 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by JWhip View Post
I really can't believe how defensive some are in this thread. I was there with Mark. I have been an audiophile since the mid 70's as a teenager. Started buying equipment after law school in the early 80's. I have been to countless shows, CES, etc. I am a friend of Mark's and we visited many of the rooms together. No we didn't take measurements. I bring a trusted CD that is well recorded with excellent dynamics. As I have posted before, I didn't like the Focal rooms at all. At this show, in these rooms and with this equipment, I didn't like one room and hated the other. I have damn good but very reasonably priced equipment, some of it even used. I choose to spend my money on traveling the world not audio equipment. Call me crazy if you must. Nevertheless, I am thrilled with the sound I get at home. I have heard some very nice ultra high end stuff over the years. This show, not so much. Maybe it was the rooms or the set up, but stuff this expensive should sound at the worst, pretty good in any show room. Some exhibitors did, like Gamut where the system was as I recall $70,000. Excellent sound. So was the Sony room. So was the Hsu room. Would I swap out my rig for the Hsu rig? No. It was not THAT good. What it was was very listenable, enjoyable, smooth, excellent tonal balance, tight bass. Sounded like music. Was it the last word in dynamics, detail, soundstage, etc. No. But, and this is a big but, is was so much more enjoyable to listen to than most of the other rooms with much more expensive equipment in a similar room. I was very contented listening there in the sweet spot. No need to take measurements, plot graphs etc. Do we need to do that when looking at a woman to determine if she is attractive to us. Do I really need to take measurements to conclude that Kate Middleton is HOT and KIM K is NOT? Beauty is in the eye (and here the ears) of the beholder. Do we take out a tape measure and measure all her curves, her shoe size and the like? NO, we use our senses, which its what we did at the show and we made our judgments based on what we experienced. Audio is supposed to be fun. Reading some of these posts here takes the fun out of the hobby. Buy what you like, spend $100,000 if you want and can. But most of all, please enjoy the music. That is what I try to do. Audio is not life and death. I do not attain self worth over what kind of equipment I have.
Audio is an interest, not a hobby, for me. I went to the show for the experience, and let what I heard determine my assessments. Like you, I think the music, not the equipment, is what it's about. Oddly enough, I think the better the equipment, the greater the danger it can become about the equipment. Or the sound. And less about the music. This can happen to me if I'm not careful.

The rooms I was most comfortable in were the ones where I listened to the music. The most expensive room I went to was the Naim/Focal room, co-sponsored by Innovative Audio (a Naim dealer) and Lyric Hi Fi (a Focal dealer). I actually liked the music and the presentation. I wasn't paying attention to soundstage, dynamics and the like. In other words, I wasn't listening critically; I was listening normally, and so it was with all the rooms I spent any real time in. If any system was going to make an impression on me, it would be a more honest one this way.

One does not need to spend a boatload of money for good sound. My qualifier to "good" would be good according to one's own tastes and stardards. I thought the Naim/Focal combo sounded "good," but that doesn't mean I would buy the equipment; the Legacy Aeris sounded "good" as well, but it's a "good" I'd be more likely to buy even though I don't like the idea of having to plug in my speakers (outlets are at a premium in my room). I preferred the Aeris' "good" over the Focal's "good." The Legacy Focus SE was also "good," and I'd buy it over the Focal too. It would have really made my weekend if Bryston had been there with their Model T speakers, though.

Oh well, after this I may go next year if I'm around. That the show was in Brooklyn made it less of a chore to go, since the Marriott was only a 15-minute bus ride for me.
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post #285 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 06:01 PM
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post #286 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 06:02 PM
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Howdy Mark,

a very nice write up, as usual and, BTW, my hats-off to y'a Sir!

IMO, you're doing a very nice job in telling us - AVS Geeks - what's the real best-bang-for-the-buck options in the AV world, same as you did with the 215 Behringer speakers. Last but not least Mark, you're in the right track, though
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post #287 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Tell me, how much slamming would I get if I walked around the show, shared my subjective experience as article here, saying an expensive cable sounded night and day better than another?
Well ZERO % if you were willing to back it up in a well designed SBT. It is not beyond credulity that Mark could tell the difference between the Focal and HSU setups SBT.

It is likely beyond credulity for a $5000 interconnect with no wacky measured metrics to be night and day with some nice Mogami gold IC's.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.


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post #288 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 07:28 PM
 
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Well ZERO % if you were willing to back it up in a well designed SBT.
Since Mark didn't come here with results of any blind test, or even sighted AB test with the same content and same room, I say we just agreed to stone him 'till he repents.

Quote:
It is not beyond credulity that Mark could tell the difference between the Focal and HSU setups SBT.
I don't doubt that. But the title of his report was not that he could tell the differences there. So not sure why you pick that as the challenge. He made a statement of one system sounding better than others, not just different.

Quote:
It is likely beyond credulity for a $5000 interconnect with no wacky measured metrics to be night and day with some nice Mogami gold IC's.
And just as well, I am confident that Mark's impression of Hsu system having profound performance would not stand scrutiny if evaluated objectively as you are saying you would do with cables.

I am still in disbelief that so many people are willing to take to bank a single report from a show floor. Did a google on other reports of Hsu at the same show and got this: http://www.vtsols.com/2014-new-york-audio-show/

The HSU Research room was one of two video presentation that I saw. This room produced thunderous bass of course. HSU subs are expert at delivering deep, undistorted boom at a value price point. The home theater demo used the Prometheus blu-ray disc. As this was primarily a 2-channel audio show I can understand that HSU did not optimize this set up for this show. But this particular set up was woefully inadequate for presentation at a trade show. As a home theater installer I was disappointed. I know HSU equipment and they are much better than what this particular video presentation delivered.

Mark said this instead:
This came as no surprise to me; I've heard enough AVS members' systems to know that a powerful sub, a few high-efficiency 2-way speakers, a bit of acoustical room treatment, and a competent AVR can go a long way toward achieving audio nirvana.

Who do we believe? Where is the reality check now? On scale 1 to 10, how much weight are you putting on Mark's report? If I stuck you in a double blind tests of the speakers Mark heard in the same room, with the same content, what is your confidence level that you would come out with the same impression as Mark?

The reality is this: all the supporting posts are because you like Mark's political message. That is it. That is my position and I am sticking to it.
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post #289 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Since Mark didn't come here with results of any blind test, or even sighted AB test with the same content and same room, I say we just agreed to stone him 'till he repents.


I don't doubt that. But the title of his report was not that he could tell the differences there. So not sure why you pick that as the challenge. He made a statement of one system sounding better than others, not just different.


And just as well, I am confident that Mark's impression of Hsu system having profound performance would not stand scrutiny if evaluated objectively as you are saying you would do with cables.

I am still in disbelief that so many people are willing to take to bank a single report from a show floor. Did a google on other reports of Hsu at the same show and got this: http://www.vtsols.com/2014-new-york-audio-show/

The HSU Research room was one of two video presentation that I saw. This room produced thunderous bass of course. HSU subs are expert at delivering deep, undistorted boom at a value price point. The home theater demo used the Prometheus blu-ray disc. As this was primarily a 2-channel audio show I can understand that HSU did not optimize this set up for this show. But this particular set up was woefully inadequate for presentation at a trade show. As a home theater installer I was disappointed. I know HSU equipment and they are much better than what this particular video presentation delivered.

Mark said this instead:
This came as no surprise to me; I've heard enough AVS members' systems to know that a powerful sub, a few high-efficiency 2-way speakers, a bit of acoustical room treatment, and a competent AVR can go a long way toward achieving audio nirvana.

Who do we believe? Where is the reality check now? On scale 1 to 10, how much weight are you putting on Mark's report? If I stuck you in a double blind tests of the speakers Mark heard in the same room, with the same content, what is your confidence level that you would come out with the same impression as Mark?

The reality is this: all the supporting posts are because you like Mark's political message. That is it. That is my position and I am sticking to it.
Amir, you misrepresent what I wrote. I made no comments regrading how Hsu's system performed in a home theater configuration at that show.

Regarding that other show report you quoted, what you could choose to believe is the last line... "I know HSU equipment and they are much better than what this particular video presentation delivered." That's a far cry from your speculative comments about them being cheap Chinese speakers.

Please read or re-read post #280 - here it is...

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
The thing is, here's what I said in the article...

"Hsu managed to present a demo that was just as profound as the monster systems. I dare say that, during some classical orchestral music, the bass beat any of the 2-channel systems, price being no object!"

I did not say that Hsu's speakers blew away the Focals. I did not say it was the Focals that sounded bad, maybe it was the tube amps, or the source, or (if you believe some audiophiles) perhaps I just don't like the "character" of the cables they used.

I said the Hsu system, which of course includes a sub as well as the inexpensive 2-ways, sounded as good to my ears as some much larger, more expensive speakers systems and their associated amps/preamps/sources. A lot of that had to do with the quality of the bass, and the fact Hsu's speakers outperformed for their size/price, which numerous critics have acknowledged.

Mark Henninger
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Last edited by imagic; 10-09-2014 at 01:20 PM. Reason: Clarity and brevity
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post #290 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
^ And indeed the mk2 is much better, exactly as Hsu has said since it uses a different tweeter.


Here's the HB-1 Mk2 version of the Hsu, grills off, on-axis and the nearly identical 30 degrees off axis :



Not perfect, but the overall response is the flattest I can recall ever seeing for such a low priced speaker ($150).
Source: http://stereomojo.com/HSU%20HB1%20Mk...akerReview.htm
Please keep in mind that those measurements use a 100 dB amplitude axis scale. The response variation is actually quite large. I can think of several low priced models that are more linear. For reference notice the difference in my speakers plotted at with a 100 dB window and a 50 dB window.

That's not to say that they can't be good if equalized since they appear to have reasonably constant directivity.
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Amir, you repeatedly distort and misrepresent what I wrote, and many of your arguments are disingenuous. I made no comments regrading how Hsu's system performed as a home theater. You seem to be grasping at straws, and it's growing tiresome.
Posting the impression of someone else at the same show, hearing the same system you did is grasping for straws? You must have a totally different impression of that phrase than me. You have given us no data points other than you heard great sound in that room. So we get to bring counter evidence in the same form. You can't cry foul when that data concretely disputes your impression.

What is grasping at straws is saying that system that is designed for home theater first and foremost, was magical in music but allowed to be disappointing in surround movie sound.

Let me ask you this: do you believe the guy when he says in home theater application the Hsu system had disappointing performance?

Quote:
And as for that other show report you quoted, what you should believe is the last line... "I know HSU equipment and they are much better than what this particular video presentation delivered."
I have no dispute about a vague reference like that. You could have said this and I would have moved on to another thread without posting.

To be clear, he is not saying that experience matches a $100,000 home theater system as you are saying in your show report about music. And that is the reality check. The only reality I see is disappointment that I won't go alone with a subjective impression that strains credibility based on everything I know about speakers and acoustics.
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Amir, you repeatedly distort and misrepresent what I wrote, and many of your arguments are disingenuous.
Maybe you should think about this for a moment. Seriously, I mean really think about it long term. Do you think pointing out the specifics will somehow shame him from using the exact same tactics tomorrow? Or the next day? Trust me, it won't. I would suggest you skip over his posts like I do; they have no merit.
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post
I can think of several low priced models that are more linear.
Then why didn't you post those instead of your speakers which are what exactly? Certainly you can't mean your avatar speakers, LS50s , which are what, $750/each USD MSRP?

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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Then why didn't you post those instead of your speakers which are what exactly?
Because comparing them to my speakers was not the point. The point was to use the graphs to demonstrate that those HSU measurements are presented in a deceiving scale.

If I post external measurements taken with 50dB amplitude window (which virtually all major publications use), it won't be an equivalent comparison.

But since you asked, here is the Infinity P362 [slide 18, 24] (the P363 can be had $99/speaker as of now), pioneer sp-bs22-lr ($125/pair), and JBL LSR 305 ($240/pair).

Edit: Added hyperlinks for sources as requested. I can't get the LSR305, since the picture was used on amazon and it seems to have been removed. The full picture can be found in this thread.
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Please provide links for your sources, like I did with my post.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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Do all those measurements have the same smoothing? Taken under the same conditions, microphone distances, positioning, gated identically?

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Shame on you Amir for making a call for the general population to stone Mark until he relents. Should he go to the RMAF, he'll be able to legally stone himself, just like you can living in Washington.
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Please provide links for your sources, like I did with my post.
I've edited the post with the information.
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
Do all those measurements have the same smoothing? Taken under the same conditions, microphone distances, positioning, gated identically?
The external measurements I posted aren't smoothed. Smoothing shouldn't be needed if quasi-anechoic or anechoic measurements are done properly.

I already said the plots aren't directly comparably to the HSUs. I only posted them since I was asked to, and to show what good performance from budget speakers looks like.

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Thanks for the source links.

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Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post
Because comparing them to my speakers was not the point. The point was to use the graphs to demonstrate that those HSU measurements are presented in a deceiving scale.

If I post external measurements taken with 50dB frequency window (which virtually all major publications use), it won't be an equivalent comparison.

Oh I get it, if a major magazine uses an expanded 100 dB (or even more) x-axis, they are presenting it with a "deceiving scale", to quote you, so they make the speaker appear to have a flatter response, kind of like this other magazine does with this different speaker, for example:

Got it.

Source:http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/books...the-bench.html


@Chu Gai, Stereophile routinely uses smoothing and often states this in their reports, even though they may not mention it each and every time. In addition to smoothing they also do an averaging of say 20 different measurements which they then present to us with a single trace:

"What matters most is the result of this quasi-anechoic behavior in the listening room. I performed my usual spatially averaged response measurements of the LS50s in my listening room. Using SMUGSoftware's FuzzMeasure 3.0 program and a 96kHz sample rate, I average 20 1/6-octave–smoothed spectra, taken for the left and right speakers individually, in a vertical rectangular grid 36" wide by 18" high and centered on the positions of my ears." [emphasis mine]

Source: http://www.stereophile.com/content/k...r-measurements


I'm all for uniformity in testing, but different people have different views on how it should be done "properly". This is one reason why quoting sources and labeling graphs is important.
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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post #300 of 767 Old 10-08-2014, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Oh I get it, if a major magazine uses an expanded 100 dB (or even more) x-axis, they are presenting it with a "deceiving scale", to quote you, so they are making the speaker appear to have a flatter response.
I don't mean to imply that the reviewer of the HSUs (or anyone else) was being disingenuous. What I meant was that people were being deceived by the scale into thinking the performance was better than it was. Im sorry if that wasn't clear.

I don't get how the Secrets review is relevant, since I have no affiliation to the reviewer and haven't referred to it.
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Originally Posted by m.zillch View Post
Stereophile routinely uses smoothing and often states this in their reports, even though they may not mention it each and every time. In addition to smoothing they also do an averaging of say 20 different measurements which they then present to us with a single trace:

"What matters most is the result of this quasi-anechoic behavior in the listening room. I performed my usual spatially averaged response measurements of the LS50s in my listening room. Using SMUGSoftware's FuzzMeasure 3.0 program and a 96kHz sample rate, I average 20 1/6-octave–smoothed spectra, taken for the left and right speakers individually, in a vertical rectangular grid 36" wide by 18" high and centered on the positions of my ears." [emphasis mine]

Source: http://www.stereophile.com/content/k...r-measurements


I'm all for uniformity in testing, but different people have different views on how it should be done "properly". This is one reason why quoting sources is important.
On this point you either aren't that familiar with the subject matter or are being misleading.

In the quoted passage JA is referring to in-room measurements, and it's fairly standard to apply smoothing to eliminate acoustical interference effects from the room that aren't from the speaker and won't be seen in quasi-anechoic or anechoic measurements. He doesnt smooth his quasi-anechoic measurements.

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