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post #1 of 21 Old 12-09-2014, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Speaker Distance Reference Point

The general consensus is to place front speakers 22 - 30 degrees off center, but what is the measuring point? The outside of the speaker or the center of the tweeter? Also, what about height of surrounds? Is this the bottom of the speaker, the acoustical center, or the tweeter? Thanks.
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post #2 of 21 Old 12-09-2014, 10:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by johnnymacIII View Post
The general consensus is to place front speakers 22 - 30 degrees off center, but what is the measuring point? The outside of the speaker or the center of the tweeter? Also, what about height of surrounds? Is this the bottom of the speaker, the acoustical center, or the tweeter? Thanks.
General concensus is incorrect. You'll usually get the best result when the L/R are toed in so that they're aiming more or less at the center of the LP, but that's not a hard and fast rule. What is a hard and fast rule is to toe them in to where they sound the best, whatever that may be. My preference with surrounds is to have them as high as possible, but that's my preference, using my speakers in my room to suit my tastes.
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post #3 of 21 Old 12-09-2014, 02:18 PM
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The reference point for speaker location is usually the tweeter axis, as sound becomes more directional as frequency increases and the tweeter carries the highs.

The "consensus" is really a recommendation, made without knowledge of your specific room or listening preferences, and based on some general assumptions that may or may not apply in your case. Speakers can be designed with the optimum listening axis off to the side, so Bill's exactly right; arrange them so they sound the best.

I also prefer my surrounds placed so the tweeter axis is well above ear level, but then, I'm following a pattern. My CC is very low, under the display, my MTM mains have the upper driver at ear level, the L-wide/R-wide speakers' tweeters are at ear level, and the surrounds slightly above ear level. I like it, and suggest you arrange things the way you like, as well.

The only trick is knowing what to change when there's something you don't like! Let us know how you make out.

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post #4 of 21 Old 12-10-2014, 01:51 PM
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For surround height, try 15* above your ears, when seated.
If your seat is 7 ft from the surrounds, then 23" above your ear to the tweeter.
If they are 10 ft away, then it would be 32" ft above.

As Fitz mentioned, toe-in your mains. You also did not state the room width, but if its 13~14' wide, then you should be able to spread the mains to 8', C/C of driver arrays, when toed-in.
The more distance you have from the speakers to the side walls, the better. But you also do not want them too close to each other.

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post #5 of 21 Old 12-11-2014, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnymacIII View Post
The general consensus is to place front speakers 22 - 30 degrees off center, but what is the measuring point? The outside of the speaker or the center of the tweeter? Also, what about height of surrounds? Is this the bottom of the speaker, the acoustical center, or the tweeter? Thanks.

There is no general answer to this, because the horizontal and vertical dispersion patterns of each tweeter and each midrange is different, and must be considered in detail.

The absolutely CRITICAL thing IMO is that the listeners ears be as close to the axis of the midrange as possible.

Unless the speaker system is very badly designed, this will usually put the tweeter in a good location also.
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post #6 of 21 Old 12-11-2014, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I appreciate all of the replies and input. I wanted to be sure before I put holes in my wall for the mounts. I contacted CEDIA Awards, as they have certain prerequisites to be followed in order to considered for an award. They can be seen here: http://www.cediaawards.org/best-home...entry-criteria

I emailed them and I was told that when placing the speaker .6m higher than the listening position's ear level (found in best practice #2), the measuring point is the acoustic center of the speaker.

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post #7 of 21 Old 12-12-2014, 06:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by johnnymacIII View Post
I appreciate all of the replies and input. I wanted to be sure before I put holes in my wall for the mounts. I contacted CEDIA Awards, as they have certain prerequisites to be followed in order to considered for an award. They can be seen here: http://www.cediaawards.org/best-home...entry-criteria
I emailed them and I was told that when placing the speaker .6m higher than the listening position's ear level (found in best practice #2), the measuring point is the acoustic center of the speaker.
Are you entering a cedia awards competition? If so then you have to adhere by their guidelines. If not then nothing posted there is relevant to you. What is relevant to you is that you put your speakers where they sound the best. You cannot determine that by any other means than trying different placements.
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post #8 of 21 Old 12-12-2014, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by johnnymacIII View Post
The general consensus is to place front speakers 22 - 30 degrees off center, but what is the measuring point? The outside of the speaker or the center of the tweeter? Also, what about height of surrounds? Is this the bottom of the speaker, the acoustical center, or the tweeter? Thanks.
The differences between 22 and 30 degrees will be many from a measurement stand point.

Sometimes 30 degrees requires the speakers too close to the side walls (depending on speaker to listening distance). Consequently, the narrower (22-25 degrees) option may yield a better FR curve.

But also, the shape of the sound stage. IMO, 30 degrees will yield a better stage.

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post #9 of 21 Old 12-12-2014, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
The differences between 22 and 30 degrees will be many from a measurement stand point.

Sometimes 30 degrees requires the speakers too close to the side walls (depending on speaker to listening distance). Consequently, the narrower (22-25 degrees) option may yield a better FR curve.

But also, the shape of the sound stage. IMO, 30 degrees will yield a better stage.
30* will only provide a better soundstage IF there is enough space between the speakers and the sidewalls. As you mentioned, 30* could be too close to those walls.

I was in a HT shop a few years ago, and they had the mains within 15" of the corners.
They were probably spaced close to 11 ft apart. But the soundstage was narrower than my mains placed 8 ft apart, due to the fact I had almost 5 ft from speakers to the side walls.

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post #10 of 21 Old 01-31-2015, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies. Long story short, I put my speakers where they measured best. Speaker off axis response, room modes, and furniture all came into play. It is correct, instead of worrying about pinpoint placement recomendation using charts and angles, adapt to your individual room.

I'm not sure if anyone has used the REW Room Sim, but that was a great place to start.
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post #11 of 21 Old 02-03-2015, 12:06 PM
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Not meaning to thread-jack, but i was wondering a couple general guidelines to start with my front towers based on what was said here.
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post #12 of 21 Old 02-03-2015, 12:12 PM
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Sorry, keyboard was pressed lol. Anyways, because of my rather small living room, my CC is approx 5' from the wall and the towers approx 32" to either side of the CC (center to center). I sit about 8' from the CC. I understand that ideally i would have the front towers farther apart, but the one tower is already 27" from the side wall, and i also have chosen that corner to place my sub. My ears arent perfect for comparing differences in sound when the time spent to move things around make it hard to pinpoint differences as well. Would you guys recomend bringing them any farther from the CC or just deal with it? I chose to point the towers straight ahead instead of toed in to the listening spot in hopes that it would attempt to fill in the sides and not so much from the front.

Small living room in this place :/
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post #13 of 21 Old 02-03-2015, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, keyboard was pressed lol. Anyways, because of my rather small living room, my CC is approx 5' from the wall and the towers approx 32" to either side of the CC (center to center). I sit about 8' from the CC. I understand that ideally i would have the front towers farther apart, but the one tower is already 27" from the side wall, and i also have chosen that corner to place my sub. My ears arent perfect for comparing differences in sound when the time spent to move things around make it hard to pinpoint differences as well. Would you guys recomend bringing them any farther from the CC or just deal with it? I chose to point the towers straight ahead instead of toed in to the listening spot in hopes that it would attempt to fill in the sides and not so much from the front.

Small living room in this place :/
Hey, man.

What are the actual dimensions of the room? Is it rectangular? Is it enclosed? Also, what is the speaker?

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post #14 of 21 Old 02-03-2015, 01:17 PM
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Hey, man.

What are the actual dimensions of the room? Is it rectangular? Is it enclosed? Also, what is the speaker?
Room is 13.5' x 11.5" , but doors and walkway is from around 9.5' until the 13.5' . Hopefully thats somewhat clear to picture lol (my couch and tv are opposites among the 11.5' measurement)
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post #15 of 21 Old 02-03-2015, 01:19 PM
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oh and i have Precision Acoustics speakers, larger towers with dual 8"s and center + bookshelves with 5.25" drivers). I'd post specs but this brand is impossible to find anything useful anyways :/
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post #16 of 21 Old 02-03-2015, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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oh and i have Precision Acoustics speakers, larger towers with dual 8"s and center + bookshelves with 5.25" drivers). I'd post specs but this brand is impossible to find anything useful anyways :/
I think in your case your speaker setup is actually optimal in the position you have right now. For imaging purposes you want to keep your speakers equal distances apart from each other, which you have done. Also, from what I understand, they are as far apart as you can get them without having one closer to one wall than the other, because of the walkway, correct? In that case, you could move your seating position closer to the speakers to increase the soundstage, but that would be at the expense of bass response as you would begin approaching the center of the room. I wouldn't recommend that. As far as how much tow in... without knowing the off axis response, this will be something you will have to play with. Without your room correction on, start by listening to your speaker with the tweeter facing directly forward. Then tow in so that that tweeter is directly pointing to you. Take note of the soundstage and imaging. You might find that towing in your speakers will decrease the soundstage even more or the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle, this something that you will have to play around with.

One thing I might do if it is possible, is move the subwoofer to the back wall or back corner and rerun your room correction. Where you seating position is right now, you would most likely see an tremendous upgrade in bass response. If you have your crossover set at 80 hz or below, you wouldn't even know it was there and the AVR room correction system would correct for the distance and delay.

Hope this helps a little.

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post #17 of 21 Old 02-03-2015, 02:46 PM
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I think in your case your speaker setup is actually optimal in the position you have right now. For imaging purposes you want to keep your speakers equal distances apart from each other, which you have done. Also, from what I understand, they are as far apart as you can get them without having one closer to one wall than the other, because of the walkway, correct? In that case, you could move your seating position closer to the speakers to increase the soundstage, but that would be at the expense of bass response as you would begin approaching the center of the room. I wouldn't recommend that. As far as how much tow in... without knowing the off axis response, this will be something you will have to play with. Without your room correction on, start by listening to your speaker with the tweeter facing directly forward. Then tow in so that that tweeter is directly pointing to you. Take note of the soundstage and imaging. You might find that towing in your speakers will decrease the soundstage even more or the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle, this something that you will have to play around with.

One thing I might do if it is possible, is move the subwoofer to the back wall or back corner and rerun your room correction. Where you seating position is right now, you would most likely see an tremendous upgrade in bass response. If you have your crossover set at 80 hz or below, you wouldn't even know it was there and the AVR room correction system would correct for the distance and delay.

Hope this helps a little.
It does help confirm some of my thoughts on the setup! I have the subwoofer currently backed into the corner up against both walls facing forward (front firing, front port) as thats where i have found it to be best when i placed it at the listening area to test before. I would have liked to try the couch forward a bit to place the surrounds behind and front more outwards, but i kept it as far back as possible (couple inches off wall to not block vent) so low end would be ideal per volume level. Really not wanting to upset neighbours and end it all, but so far this place seems to be well sound isolated compared to previous places. I guess my towers must be stuck like they are since there really isnt much of a better option. One is around 20" off the wall (i tried spreading them out a bit more), and the other has a good 6' from the other because of the walkway and such. Are there particular things i should look out for soundwise with placing it closer and closer to the wall so i can try and dial in how far out i can set the stage? I would assume the soundwaves would bounce off the wall causing a more echo-y sound from the one side?

Also, on a sidenote, would you be able to recommend a good track/movie to watch to be able to fine tune it?
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post #18 of 21 Old 02-03-2015, 02:46 PM
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So... "my couch and tv are opposites among the 11.5' measurement"
Are the couch and TV on the 11.5' wall, or are they on the 13.5' wall, 11.5' away from each other?

If you sit 8' from speakers that are 32" from the CC, you have a listening angle of almost 20 degrees. Dolby recommends 22-30 degrees, so you're certainly close enough not to worry. I think you're better off with the towers placed out from the walls where they sound good, rather than separating them farther. Don't discount the perceptual benefit from that side wall reflection!

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post #19 of 21 Old 02-03-2015, 02:52 PM
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So... "my couch and tv are opposites among the 11.5' measurement"
Are the couch and TV on the 11.5' wall, or are they on the 13.5' wall, 11.5' away from each other?

If you sit 8' from speakers that are 32" from the CC, you have a listening angle of almost 20 degrees. Dolby recommends 22-30 degrees, so you're certainly close enough not to worry. I think you're better off with the towers placed out from the walls where they sound good, rather than separating them farther. Don't discount the perceptual benefit from that side wall reflection!

Have fun,
Frank
On one 13.5" wall is the tv/towers, and across is the couch. To the left of where i sit there are the doors and etc i mentioned. So im not at that bad of an angle for the towers? it seemed to me that the sound apeared more centered in this place, but maybe thats the difference of the smaller room and less than optimal rear speaker placement.
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post #20 of 21 Old 02-03-2015, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DavenKorbo View Post
It does help confirm some of my thoughts on the setup! I have the subwoofer currently backed into the corner up against both walls facing forward (front firing, front port) as thats where i have found it to be best when i placed it at the listening area to test before. I would have liked to try the couch forward a bit to place the surrounds behind and front more outwards, but i kept it as far back as possible (couple inches off wall to not block vent) so low end would be ideal per volume level. Really not wanting to upset neighbours and end it all, but so far this place seems to be well sound isolated compared to previous places. I guess my towers must be stuck like they are since there really isnt much of a better option. One is around 20" off the wall (i tried spreading them out a bit more), and the other has a good 6' from the other because of the walkway and such. Are there particular things i should look out for soundwise with placing it closer and closer to the wall so i can try and dial in how far out i can set the stage? I would assume the soundwaves would bounce off the wall causing a more echo-y sound from the one side?

Also, on a sidenote, would you be able to recommend a good track/movie to watch to be able to fine tune it?
I think your fronts are setup up fine. Unless one has the perfect room or perfect speaker it always give and take. As long as your fronts are spaced equally from the center, I wouldn't worry about it that much. As one noted earlier, they are almost 22 degrees apart anyway. If you start moving your seat forward your bass response will suffer. If you move them apart more they will be in the walkway. However, you could always add absorption panels at the first reflection points. GIK Acoustics is a place that I would recommend.

As far as some good reference disks, I'm sure others could chime in as well, but for soundstage and imaging give Dave Mathews Band's Crash album a go. Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs 2 has a lot of discrete effects that would be good for imaging (having 3 kids and having seen that movie 50 times, I would know )
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post #21 of 21 Old 02-03-2015, 05:16 PM
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Thanks for the help guys. I appreciate the help! if only we all had the perfect room :P
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