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post #91 of 105 Old 01-12-2015, 04:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
False claim. On many occasions I've referenced DBTs that were done by others, or done long ago with others back when my hearing was worthy of the effort.
Not interested in tests done by others. They are not here posting what you are posting. In what test did you participate and where is the documentation of how you did Arny?

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Here's a list of DBTs that I either didn't participate at all, or particpated in with many others back in the days when my hearing was far better:
Which one of those links shows you as a participant or test creator Arny? My assumption is none but let's have you confirm it please.

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Amir you and I have been around and around this very point many times and its amazing to me how quickly some people forget the last time facts of life were explained to them. This time through what is it, about two weeks since I explained how bad my hearing currently is? Maybe less. Enough!
Enough what Arny? It is not like we have millions of tests. Or we have your concession that listeners routinely game the outcome by randomly voting as you did, creating a trap for hobbyists thinking they can run a listening test with no professional experience.

What you did was a real and expected outcome and hence the reason I scrutinized your timing. I knew from experience that should you get lost and not be able to tell the difference, you would vote randomly. It is what countless listeners do with excellent hearing yet no critical listening abilities.

My conclusion is that lacking such listening skills, you quickly convinced yourself early in this process that none of the differences that were there, were audible. You then assumed that applies to others which in the case of general population and small differences, was a good bet. You then built a platform online to get yourself heard. It is all fine.

The problem is, lacking professional experience, you didn't count on others having better listening abilities. That golden ear listeners did and do exist. And it is now time of reckoning as this old set of ears has managed to put forward data that invalides your position. What to do now? Claim to have never had good ears? That I am cheating? I don't think so....
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post #92 of 105 Old 01-12-2015, 04:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
What you saying Arny? That you never had critical listening abilities? That all these years you have been advocating transparency of everything in the world, you never had the ability to hear distortions that may have been there?
It seems to be very important to some to berate certain people's hearing repeatedly. Just speculating, but there may be a desire on some people's part to try to balance some imaginary books due to the many corrective posts that their posts have stimulated. Being outed as being totally unfamiliar with the existence and use of Curve Tracers after making claims about being an Analog Design Expert could be a little hard on the ego. ;-)

But aside from grudge matches, we must not lose track of the fact that the hearing abilities of just one person has very little logical value to anybody other than to him.

I have to admit that IMO anybody who feels the need to elevate their hearing over that of a 68 year old male just might have relatively low goals in their life. It is possible that their time might be better served by going to the dog pound and bribing the attendants to allow them to kick the dogs. ;-)
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post #93 of 105 Old 01-12-2015, 04:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by koturban View Post
Hi, Amir. Can you explain how you arrived at the following?
http://www.**************.com/Librar...Amplifier.html
Hi Koturban. How did you reckon that has anything to do with the topic of this thread: MP3 vs FLAC?
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post #94 of 105 Old 01-12-2015, 04:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
It seems to be very important to some to berate certain people's hearing repeatedly. Just speculating, but there may be a desire on some people's part to try to balance some imaginary books due to the many corrective posts that their posts have stimulated. Being outed as being totally unfamiliar with the existence and use of Curve Tracers after making claims about being an Analog Design Expert could be a little hard on the ego. ;-)

But aside from grudge matches, we must not lose track of the fact that the hearing abilities of just one person has very little logical value to anybody other than to him.

I have to admit that IMO anybody who feels the need to elevate their hearing over that of a 68 year old male just might have relatively low goals in their life. It is possible that their time might be better served by going to the dog pound and bribing the attendants to allow them to kick the dogs. ;-)
I thought I asked a simple question unrelated to all of this. Did you ever have critical listening abilities Arny? If so, is there any evidence of it in the form of double blind tests, demonstrating superior abilities to average listeners?
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post #95 of 105 Old 01-12-2015, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Scampo View Post
Sorry - I was just noticing that, in the post to which you replied, the OP hadn't said that they didn't understand what the idea of a "false negative" was - just that they felt that the idea itself was questionable given the way the testing is carried out.
I read it to mean that he didn't know what a false negative was - ""false negatives" (whatever that really means) "


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My point is that the scientific method cannot be usefully applied to what is, effectively, an appreciation of "art" (i.e. to aesthetic appreciation). A discernible difference in a short test clip seems to hold little relevance to real world music listening.
Indeed a short test clip, to my mind, is not the best way to judge perceptual differences but that's another matter & not one being discussed here.
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post #96 of 105 Old 01-12-2015, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Hi Koturban. How did you reckon that has anything to do with the topic of this thread: MP3 vs FLAC?
Since we were discussing Arny's hearing abilities, I was curious about yours.
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post #97 of 105 Old 01-12-2015, 09:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by koturban View Post
Since we were discussing Arny's hearing abilities, I was curious about yours.
Got it. See https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...l#post30729817
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post #98 of 105 Old 01-12-2015, 11:33 PM
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Compression in songs works like compression in any kind of file, it all depends on how much (different kinds of) information there is in the file.

The best example for a movie file for example is a movie that is almost all a static picture. Remember the actual info in a picture can be contained in a small ~1Mb file. So the whole information in the movie can be compressed almost down to the bits of a picture, because there wasnt much of anything else there.

Similar for a cd , the standard bitrate for it is something like 1500 kbps if I'm not mistaken, however, in a song there can be 20 instruments that play continuously. Or there might be a synth that plays a note every 2-3 seconds in short 500 ms bursts , I can be sure that I will be able to compress that song to 320 kbps without losing much of anything because there wasnt much of anything there in the first place.

So the question shouldnt be about bitrates, its about information, its about what information you could gain from the original file in the first place. This is the way I understand it.
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post #99 of 105 Old 01-13-2015, 01:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Did you ever have critical listening abilities Arny?
What a question!

Why would it matter. As I said:

"But aside from grudge matches, we must not lose track of the fact that the hearing abilities of just one person has very little logical value to anybody other than to him."

Does this statement need some kind of paraphrase or clarification?

What is opaque about it?

Here's reality. Other people's false protestations to the contrary I've been working hard since the mid-1970s to promote highly reliable listening tests that detect both false positives and false negatives:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test

"
In 1977 Arnold B. Krueger and Bern Muller, both members of the Southeastern Michigan Woofer and Tweeter Marching Society (SMWTMS), invented the ABX Double Blind Comparator System in order to settle a debate if differences between well constructed and level matched amplifiers are audible, Muller being pro and Krueger being against the possibility.[1] On May 7, 1977 SMWTMS organized the first three audio double blind listening tests using Krueger's and Muller's ABX Comparator. Consequent to the meeting a company that will manufacture and sell the ABX Comparators was formed under the name ABX Corporation. Later David Clark, member of the Audio Engineering Society (AES), will continue to refine, promote and market the ABX Comparator.[2][3]

On September 22, 1999 Krueger launched a website fully dedicated to educating about ABX testing with included software applications for download.[4]
"

The PCABX web site can still be inspected on the Wayback machine, and there one will find a permanent record of an elaborate listener training facility that clearly exposes people who can't hear differences.

Not mentioned above are the vigorous and highly regarded efforts of David Clark who while working with his employee Mark Ziemba, devised a training product he calls Listening Technology in the early 1990s. I contributed nothing direct to this effort, none at all. It is not widely known or documented because it is a proprietary product that was sold somewhat privately for healthy fees, in essence a trade secret. Clark himself describes it below:

http://www.dlcdesignaudio.com/

"For over 20 years David Clark has been training the automotive industry on how to evaluate audio systems. His method, Listening Technology, has become the standard for many auto-makers in North America and Europe. This objective technique utilizes a reference system, standard program material and many measures to minimize bias. Clients include global vehicle manufacturers, audio system suppliers, loudspeaker manufacturers and electronics suppliers."

To the best of my knowledge LT preceeds the well-known MPEG work that was described in the JAES by James Johnston, and involved some of the same musical passages. I don't know how much JJ knew about LT then or now.
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post #100 of 105 Old 01-13-2015, 01:21 AM
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Enough bickering. Stick to the topic and not each other.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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post #101 of 105 Old 01-14-2015, 03:45 PM
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@krabapple probably made the best post in here (try it your darn self, lol). Also, @amirm explaining some of the nuances of MP3 encoding was also illuminating (and watered down well from the complexity that is perceptual encoding). Otherwise, much of this thread is straight bickering and useless . Certainly, though, I must inject my own opinion .

I personally feel there are differences between 320kbit MP3 and FLAC and certainly with the right material and listening acuity I'm sure they are audible. However, I'd bet many, myself included, will never hear them in a typical listening environment and certainly not listening casually. Moreover, I find that when I listen critically, I focus too much to actually enjoy the music being presented -- who wants to listen like that? I've never gotten goosebumps straining to hear an MP3 artifact, I can tell you that. But, Norah Jone's voice gives me chills regardless of whether I listen to an MP3 or FLAC track.

That said, none of this precludes me from ripping my CD collection to FLAC just to satisfy myself in the fact that I've lost nothing from it. It also doesn't keep me from passing up MP3 downloads in lieu of CDs, because if I'm paying for something I don't want a compressed file when there exists a lossless alternative. Call me crazy, lol. However, I have no qualms converting it all to LAME encoded VBR MP3 for my space constrained iPod.
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post #102 of 105 Old 01-15-2015, 03:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
I personally feel there are differences between 320kbit MP3 and FLAC and certainly with the right material and listening acuity I'm sure they are audible....


I'm with you on this, too - good post. In the real world, I am now convinced that the differences are of no significance at all - and having read many respected views of late I think that has to be the case and not just my ears. This thread, bickering apart, is more a technical discussion than about listening to real music.


Steve
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post #103 of 105 Old 01-15-2015, 08:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Scampo View Post
This thread, bickering apart, is more a technical discussion than about listening to real music.

Steve
Not sure what you mean by that. The listening test and data applied to music, not test signals. If you have the ability to hear compression artifacts, they have an insidious way of jumping out at you when you are listening to music. As an extreme example, I can't listen to XM or Sirius radio (US DBS) due to extreme amount of compression. I love the content they have but it constantly feels like someone is scratching their nails on the blackboard!

Again, that is much lower data rates than we are talking about here but still. What I heard in the L2 track at the markers I indicated, to my ear shows clear degradation and does take away the enjoyment of music if you an audiophile. To emphasize, as audiophiles anytime we listen to music we are at all times also analyzing its fidelity. So the two go hand in hand.

Now, if you can't hear the artifacts, then sure, none of this is material to you. What you can't hear obviously can't bother you. But if you can, this is everything about hearing it in real music as shown in listening tests I post. It was not like I showed you measurements and such to be dismissive of it as technical talk.
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post #104 of 105 Old 01-15-2015, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Not sure what you mean by that. ...

Yes - sorry, email is not the easiest method of communication to "compress"! :-) I didn't mean quite to suggest what I did. It seems to me that the quality degradation - even when played through high quality equipment - of 320kbs MP3 versus FLAC is not in the audible range. Much of the discussion in the thread has, I would say, been in the realms of "the technical" for many readers here in that sense. I know that I can hear degraded MP3 sound ("compression artefacts") but not from 320kbs MP3s (although even this depends a little on the dynamic range of the music itself).


Apple, for example, claim to have "re-mastered" some recordings in ways that have allowed them to create a reduced size MP3 file that is still of hi-fi quality despite the "compression" (presumably the removed bits of data are all outside the typical person's audible range).


What still delights me is the quality of FLAC files played through a modern DAC and passed to a well matched amp and speakers. Some of my son's recording are 320kbs, however, and there are no differences apparent in the sense that the 320kbs MP3 still manages to recreates tremendous sounding pieces of music.

Last edited by Scampo; 01-15-2015 at 11:20 AM.
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post #105 of 105 Old 01-15-2015, 06:18 PM
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Thread scrubbed & closed vs. throwing several of you off AVS...you're welcome. Next time we won't be so nice...

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