The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests - by Sean Olive - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by jkeny View Post
You state that fatigue & loss of focus are not factors in blind tests which proves to me, not only have you never done any blind tests but you don't know the first thing about running one?
No more than any other subjective test, so what's the point?

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post #242 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by charmerci View Post
From the results of the audio DBTs that I have seen (I haven't looked at all of them but I've seen enough), there are usually 2 or 3 people who consistently hear differences far above chance. Then you can use these particular listeners in future DBT's.

This is rarely true in tests with trained listeners, and only happens when you have gotten to the absolute edge of audibility (which is not the usual 'day and night' claims I see all the time, nor is it the "more bass", "sharp", 'edgy' etc claims that all denote effects far, far above thresholds).

If you're there in a quiet room, you're done.

The key here is TRAINED listeners. People off the street usually aren't. It is, however, possible to educate a good percentage of people to learn to listen well. That's why training is required for testing. (and other things, of course)

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post #243 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
Hey, I can do this too!

So, the only audio DBT result you will take seriously is one from a test that meets ITU spec, is this correct?
Which ITU spec?

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post #244 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by F.Cook View Post
1. All speaker tests, are cited evaluations. There is no retail outlet, that offers properly controlled DB ABX tests of any kind, let alone speakers. Making DB ABX comparisons moot.
You do understand that Harman has built an entire room to handle blind speaker listening tests, yes?

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post #245 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post
That was true 40 years ago, yes, but spaciousness can be measured, and there are several standard ways for determining intelligibility, methods that have been put to good use in theatres, cinemas, stadiums, and the like.

So, yes, actually, such things can be measured. Not with a THD meter or such, of course.
With what then? Always open to learning new things and share. That is what I came here for. Stretching my audio education to its limits here.

So, enlighten me. How does one measure spaciousness and intelligibility? Linky?thx

I will read the other links and see if I can get a better grip on this conversation. Lots of facts and a few raw comments flying about... makes my head spin. Not following the debate well and not sure there even is much of a thread to follow sometimes!
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post #246 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 02:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post
You do understand that Harman has built an entire room to handle blind speaker listening tests, yes?
I believe he does.
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post #247 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 02:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
With what then? Always open to learning new things and share. That is what I came here for. Stretching my audio education to its limits here.

So, enlighten me. How does one measure spaciousness and intelligibility? Linky?thx

I will read the other links and see if I can get a better grip on this conversation. Lots of facts and a few raw comments flying about... makes my head spin. Not following the debate well and not sure there even is much of a thread to follow sometimes!
That's why; you just said it yourself. ...Take your time, read what Amir is posting.
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post #248 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post
Actually, the peripheral (up to and including inner ear functions) in humans IS remarkably similar, and for a good reason, it allows us to easily understand human speech.

The words "distortion and s/n" do not apply here. For a tutorial in human peripheral response, look at www.aes/org/sections/pnw/ppt.htm where there are a variety of tutorials. Look at they video (cited recently at avsforum) on youtube (search using "johnston" and "heyser" as search terms to find it on youtube) for some information (hardly complete in one hour) on how the ear-brain system functions in some detail.

Now as to sensitivity, yes, we can measure hearing sensitivity remarkably well, but not in basic terms that would apply to linear systems. Ears are not a linear system, in fact that's a good thing. Were they linear, we could handle about a 30dB dynamic range. Rather, the nonlinearity and frequency selectivity of the basilar/tectoral membranes and the cochlear structure allow us to do much better.

Before you shoot back, you can check my bona-fides at home.comcast.net/~retired_old_jj and for some outside evidence, http://www.ieee.org/about/awards/bio...ecipients.html and scroll down to 2006. The IEEE does not hand out field awards lightly.
No shooting allowed. I believe in gun control! That means keeping control of your gun, right?

I once got offered a place on a patent but turned it down. I only tweaked/implemented the design (with lots of help) and suggested grammatical edits to the non-native-speaker patent documentation, but the lead designer came up with the idea and actually wrote the patent application. Did not feel my contribution was that significant and let the big circuit design guns present their industry paper. They put my name on that and I was happy with the consideration.

Maybe that was a poor career move but I felt my integrity was at stake and riding someone else's idea to fame just seemed dishonest somehow even if I was contributing to their success. Anyway the rights were owned by the corp so I had no license fees at stake.

I just a cog, not a bigwheel. I appreciate expertise when it stoops to my level and educates me.
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post #249 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
With what then? Always open to learning new things and share. That is what I came here for. Stretching my audio education to its limits here.

So, enlighten me. How does one measure spaciousness and intelligibility? Linky?thx

I will read the other links and see if I can get a better grip on this conversation. Lots of facts and a few raw comments flying about... makes my head spin. Not following the debate well and not sure there even is much of a thread to follow sometimes!

Well, there is an extensive literature on intelligibility, and a fairly good one on envelopment and spatial sensation, but I have to ask, how's your math? The key is to interpret the signals hitting your ears in terms of what your ear/brain system can observe, and work from there.

It's probably a 1 year grad student course in EE or Signal Processing. I'm not trying to be mean here, but the answer is kind of complicated.

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post #250 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I believe he does.
They why does he argue that speaker tests are always "cited"?

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post #251 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
Yup, yoga twisting, vegetarian cooking, race car driving, stripping bounty hunter, that's me!
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You are, truly?
I guess you can count the physical therapy as yoga, right? Is seafood a vegetable? I forget...
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post #252 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
You might want to read Peter Aczel's arguments from way back when in full context, better yet in historical context, rather than after having been subjected to the Amir Filter.

Aczel was never making the (patently absurd) claim that everyone has the same hearing. He *was* talking about *self professed* 'golden ears' -- i.e., your run of the mill, Stereophile-writing/reading 'audiophile'. It is rather unlikely that they had anything like a structured/formal listener training, e.g., Harman's training course, which trains the listeners in four sound quality attributes via five types of tasks:

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2010/1...on-how-to.html
Well that would explain a lot. No I did not read the original article. I agree that self-professed 'golden ears' are usually just hucksters with an agenda.

Thanks for the context and apologies to the author.
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post #253 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post
Well, there is an extensive literature on intelligibility, and a fairly good one on envelopment and spatial sensation, but I have to ask, how's your math? The key is to interpret the signals hitting your ears in terms of what your ear/brain system can observe, and work from there.

It's probably a 1 year grad student course in EE or Signal Processing. I'm not trying to be mean here, but the answer is kind of complicated.
Ummm... well I did real well in my BSEE and would have met magna cum laude criteria if my alma mater actually recognized it back then, but I only audited a couple of grad courses when I went to work professionally. The DSP audit went right over my head and most of the grad students bombed it. Heavy stuff. Lots of puzzled looks and sense of being lost.

Since then my math has faded considerably. Not needing it (simulators, simulators) for design much has left those who cut their professional teeth on CAD at a disadvantage I suspect. Sort of like the kids today that cannot add without a calculator whereas I used a slide rule or did it in my head.

I was sort of hoping for the hand-waving conceptualization and only a couple of simple integrals...

Would have stuck around for a Ph.D if I was a little younger. Kind of long in the tooth by the time I finished. Other life priorities. I do have a good ability to visualize but I know sometimes math cannot really be visualized too well by anyone.

I will keep reading and thanks for being helpful.
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post #254 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post
...For a tutorial in human peripheral response, look at www.aes/org/sections/pnw/ppt.htm...
Page not found?
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post #255 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
Page not found?
Ick

www.aes.org/sections/pnw/ppt.htm sorry

will try to fix original

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post #256 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 04:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by F.Cook View Post
In that the context of the cited article is based on speaker evaluation, a few things come to mind:

1. All speaker tests, are cited evaluations. There is no retail outlet, that offers properly controlled DB ABX tests of any kind, let alone speakers. Making DB ABX comparisons moot.
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Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post
Then why does he argue that speaker tests are always "cited"?
"In that the context of the cited article ..."

And then he explained (red highlighting). ...And he is not arguing, but commenting on a fact.
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post #257 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 04:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
I guess you can count the physical therapy as yoga, right? Is seafood a vegetable? I forget...
I need some more time, to catch up with my own state-of-mind. ...Then I'd be better equipped to catch up with yours.

Last edited by NorthSky; 01-27-2015 at 04:37 AM. Reason: Question > "I would be better equipped" or "I will be better equipped" ?
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Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post
They why does he argue that speaker tests are always "cited"?
I had difficulty in understanding his post at first too but I believe he is saying there is no situation in which a consumer is availed to blind testing when he goes to buy gear. So it is "always sighted." That is a truism.
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I should add to my last post that if there ever is a chance of doing blind testing, it is in a high-end shop. When SACD and DVD-A came out, I went to such a shop where we (Microsoft) had bought a lot of gear from and they literally tore out their entire demo room to allow me to hook up my Stax headphone to two such sources. I brought my own content (same content in both formats), hooked it up and did my comparison. This took about an hour or ripping gear out of their setup, hooking up mine and for them to put everything back together.

FYI I walked out not buying the unit I was evaluating. Yet there was no pressure whatsoever to either hurry up my work or buy anything.

The above is one of the reason high-end gear costs so much. They have to allow for such "high touch" sales process although admittedly, I took it to an extreme .

Imagine being able to do that in your mass market audio shop or the impossibility of doing the same when buying online.
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post #260 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 08:34 AM
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You guys should be interested in this product. (I wonder if Sean Olive has one.)

http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?opt...271&Itemid=238
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post #261 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
Ummm... well I did real well in my BSEE and would have met magna cum laude criteria if my alma mater actually recognized it back then, but I only audited a couple of grad courses when I went to work professionally. The DSP audit went right over my head and most of the grad students bombed it. Heavy stuff. Lots of puzzled looks and sense of being lost.

Since then my math has faded considerably. Not needing it (simulators, simulators) for design much has left those who cut their professional teeth on CAD at a disadvantage I suspect. Sort of like the kids today that cannot add without a calculator whereas I used a slide rule or did it in my head.

I was sort of hoping for the hand-waving conceptualization and only a couple of simple integrals...

Would have stuck around for a Ph.D if I was a little younger. Kind of long in the tooth by the time I finished. Other life priorities. I do have a good ability to visualize but I know sometimes math cannot really be visualized too well by anyone.

I will keep reading and thanks for being helpful.
Lots of good research,presentations & videos 0n exactly this topic of envelopment & intelligibility from David Greisinger
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Originally Posted by jkeny View Post
You state that fatigue & loss of focus are not factors in blind tests which proves to me,
And the very next sentence, I stated "the right way" which you won't ask about, for all to see. Obviously, you've never tried it yourself thus you still have only conjecture to troll around with.
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So, please do some DBTs
I have, as I told you already, better one than the one you tried and had forgotten about.
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post #263 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 08:56 AM
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And the very next sentence, I stated "the right way" which you won't ask about, for all to see.
That is what I & Amir have been asking for since you started - show us your "right way" & teach us what we are missing.
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Obviously, you've never tried it yourself thus you still have only conjecture to troll around with. I have, as I told you already, better one than the one you tried and had forgotten about.
Show what you claim.
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When spkr's BS is exposed we have another jumping in trying to save spkr's embarrassing ignorance
You hastily jump to the conclusion of me not having done a DBT after couple of off topic questions unanswered. Something tells me that you've got an agenda to pursuit here. I said I have done DBT and you ask a question like how much I make a year which I don't answer because it's irrelevant. Then you say, "See, he's never done what he claimed to have done!". Very hasty indeed. That and you are siding with Amir, which makes me wonder..., do you sell audio electronics?
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post #265 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 09:12 AM
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More deflection, spkr
It's up to you to show us evidence of the "right way" as you suggested you know & have followed in ALL your DBTs
Quote:
Quote:
I stated "the right way" which you won't ask about, for all to see
.
That is what I & Amir have been asking for since you started - show us your "right way" & teach us what we are missing.
You made a statement that I didn't ask you what was the "right way" - so now I'm asking you to show for all to see - set the record straight - this is what has been asked of you all along but you are so caught up in deflection that you don't even see it!!
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More deflection, spkr
You didn't answer my question. That just proves that you are a shill for some audio electronics store and your agenda is to discredit the value of DBT because it can kill your sales potential, just like it would to Amir's.


That's your own reflection you are looking at.
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It's up to you to show us evidence of the "right way" as you suggested you know & have followed in ALL your DBTs
You made a statement that I didn't ask you what was the "right way" - so now I'm asking you to show for all to see - set the record straight - this is what has been asked of you all along but you are so caught up in deflection that you don't even see it!!
You mean "results & statistics, including any internal controls" didn't matter all along? Finally! Better late than never. In addition to what Peter Aczel posted, audition the equipments beforehand all you want and anyway you want. Take your time. Pick the ones you hear the difference and put them through DBT. Again, take your time. Peter Aczel asked, "how about 16 trials over 16 weeks?" That's overkill for me but possibly not for you. Go ahead and do as leisurely as you want. It was actually fun to go through. Then you can audition them again after DBT just the way you want to, be it sighted, level unmatched or whichever subjective way you want. Try it yourself and it may just cure your hastiness.
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Originally Posted by charmerci View Post
You guys should be interested in this product. (I wonder if Sean Olive has one.)

http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?opt...271&Itemid=238
Didn't think anyone was still building such boxes! Thanks for posting that. It is priced way too high for enthusiasts though.
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I have, as I told you already, better one than the one you tried and had forgotten about.
Better? Do tell. What test was it and how was it better?
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post #269 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 09:59 AM
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Didn't think anyone was still building such boxes! Thanks for posting that. It is priced way too high for enthusiasts though.
You forget how much money some enthusiasts have.....

The neat thing about it is that you can perform your own DBT solo (though you can also lie about how great you are at detecting differences too! )because it can switch electronics and speakers randomly and then keeps a record so you can see how they were switched afterward.
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post #270 of 525 Old 01-27-2015, 10:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post
You do understand that Harman has built an entire room to handle blind speaker listening tests, yes?
Of course, as have a few others around the world. But they're hardly accessible by the masses! So I am not sure what you're driving at!


Let's suppose they were accessible for a moment:


1. Do you believe such outlets capable of proctoring such tests, without the influence of bias.


2. Do you believe that such tests would increase their respective profitability's or bolster strong relationships with their vendors?


1a. Is it not more likely that bias would exist!


2a. Is it not more likely that such formats of product audition would create a massive bottleneck in sales transactions, as such tests would extend the audition times, as they limit the number of participants and extend the direct time requirements relating to the auditions/testing's themselves.


It's question of practicality and profitability - which are as best I can tell, inversely proportional.


Lastly, there can be no successful argument put fourth against the fact that Harmon's outpost has a limited selection of products to contrast, and what is being contrasted is most certainly against their own product offerings. This fact produces a prime question: Is it practical and therefore profitable for Harmon, to invest in an environment which evidences other brands as superior to their own. - I think not! I think it's highly probable that a bias is present, by means of product filtration (AKA Censorship).
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