What is your LFE low pass filter setting? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: What is your LFE low pass filter setting?
80hz 34 41.98%
120hz 34 41.98%
Other 13 16.05%
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post #1 of 39 Old 04-28-2015, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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What is your LFE low pass filter setting?

I'm curious what people set the LFE low pass filter (lpf) to in their receiver or pre/pro.

I know technically 120hz should be the correct setting as that is the limit of the LFE channel but in the Audyssey thread and other threads it has been discussed that people recommend an 80hz setting as it reduces some of the bloated or muddy bass in some 5.1 tracks. I have just recently found this to be the case and now am using the 80hz setting.

So just curious as to what others are doing and please don't confuse this question about the LFE lpf with a speaker crossover bass management setting or the lpf knob on your subwoofer.

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post #2 of 39 Old 04-28-2015, 08:55 PM
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It should be whatever works better for your gear and room. I use 80Hz, but 60Hz also works as well.
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post #3 of 39 Old 04-28-2015, 11:13 PM
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I use 120hz and don't have any bloat
Or muddy bass. Wouldn't have a problem
Using 100hz either. Don't think I would want
To go any lower though.

FWIW YMMV.

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post #4 of 39 Old 04-28-2015, 11:29 PM
 
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I haven't had any issues but haven't experimented, although I'm willing to experiment, I've just gone with that general wisdom that it shouldn't even be adjustable and should be left at 120. I just got Everly which apparently has good low end content, maybe that will be a good candidate.

Curious, was it particular movies where it was muddy or this is across the board definitely less muddy set at 80? Anyone changing back and forth?

I had to go look to even see what my options are....my Onkyo offers 80, 90,100,120 or bypass; my Denon offers 80,90,100,110,120,150,200,250; my Pioneer nor Sony have an adjustment.

ps Is this always implemented the same way in bass management among the avrs?
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post #5 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 06:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
I haven't had any issues but haven't experimented, although I'm willing to experiment, I've just gone with that general wisdom that it shouldn't even be adjustable and should be left at 120. I just got Everly which apparently has good low end content, maybe that will be a good candidate.

Curious, was it particular movies where it was muddy or this is across the board definitely less muddy set at 80? Anyone changing back and forth?

I had to go look to even see what my options are....my Onkyo offers 80, 90,100,120 or bypass; my Denon offers 80,90,100,110,120,150,200,250; my Pioneer nor Sony have an adjustment.

ps Is this always implemented the same way in bass management among the avrs?
The biggest difference is in concert/music Blu-rays. But the difference is notable on all movies too, obviously those will bass more so. And maybe muddy is the wrong word. The reduced level in the 80-120hz range removes some of the chest slam but allows you to better here the lower bass and doesn't seem to drown out the upper bass from the other speakers. So it just sounds different and preferable for me to set it to 80hz.

And I should add that I did bump up the sub level a couple db after this change. So running about 4-5db hot now rather than 2-3db hot.

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post #6 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 06:56 AM
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What is your LFE low pass filter setting?

Oops, didn't see that last sentence. Had no idea that some systems let you trim the .1 LFE channel.

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post #7 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post
This all depends upon what front and center speakers you have. If you have smaller bookshelf speakers, you can set the crossover higher. If you have full range speakers but set to "small" in the AVR, then setting the crossover to the THX recommended 80Hz makes sense.

If you download some test files fr audiocheck.net, you can see if your main speakers have any deficiency in the lower register.

This all falls in the realm of bass management that AVRs offer. Each system or set of speakers will be different, comparing cross over freqs from one person to another without context is less than half the picture. Audioholics.com has a couple of good articles on bass management, including one on where to set your cross over. "Muddy" bass will depend upon your speakers, and your avr settings.

... FWIW, I have Bose 401s for mains, set "small" with cross over at 120Hz in my setup. Why: they produce down to 40Hz, but inconsistently < 100Hz. Using sweep test files, found there's a dip around 130Hz, so letting my sub start in that area smooths out the response.
No, it has nothing to do with your speakers. This is not about the crossover for your speakers. It is the low pass filter for LFE which is the dedicated .1 channel. It is a separate setting in some receivers, some may not have the setting at all. It has no impact on the signal sent to other speakers.
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post #8 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 07:02 AM
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I use the default 120Hz setting.
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post #9 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
No, it has nothing to do with your speakers. This is not about the crossover for your speakers. It is the low pass filter for LFE which is the dedicated .1 channel. It is a separate setting in some receivers, some may not have the setting at all. It has no impact on the signal sent to other speakers.
Correct. And lowering the setting causes anything above that (to 120Hz) to be discarded from that channel, which appeals to some:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...a-1726.html#c5

I leave it at 120Hz.

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post #10 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Correct. And lowering the setting causes anything above that (to 120Hz) to be discarded from that channel, which appeals to some:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...a-1726.html#c5

I leave it at 120Hz.
Not discarded, just rolled off more.
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post #11 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
No, it has nothing to do with your speakers. This is not about the crossover for your speakers. It is the low pass filter for LFE which is the dedicated .1 channel. It is a separate setting in some receivers, some may not have the setting at all. It has no impact on the signal sent to other speakers.
Oooohhhhhh. Didn't see that distinction in your first post.

Need more coffee....

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post #12 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Not discarded, just rolled off more.
Negative, it's discarded. From the link I posted (and that info was directly from Chris Kyriakakis AFAIK):

Quote:
If you set it to anything below 120Hz then any content between 120Hz and whatever you set it to is lost. It is not redirected anywhere - it is simply discarded.
Again, it's only content on the LFE channel.

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post #13 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Negative, it's discarded. From the link I posted (and that info was directly from Chris Kyriakakis AFAIK):

Again, it's only content on the LFE channel.
You need to read the entire section of the post you linked. :-)

We should have Keith update his FAQ answer to remove the word "discarded". His quotes from other people actually back up the idea it is not a brickwall filter.

Mark explains it like this in this post:

"I personally tend to set the low pass on the LFE channel at 80Hz in most systems by preference. I think many forget that the difference between a 120Hz low pass and an 80Hz low pass is nothing more than a shelving filter. If the low pass is 4th order, the 80Hz filter is about 7dB lower at 100Hz and about 4dB at 80Hz. A 100Hz low pass setting would have about 1/2 that difference. The adjustment has more effect on shaping the LFE track's response than it does on cutting off content. If you're running the subs with a rising response on the low end which blends with the main speakers, experimenting with 80, 100 vs. 120Hz is basically a means to taper the top end of the LFE channel. Setting this lower than 120Hz is not hacking off content any more than setting your sub a few dB hot would destroy a soundtrack."

I have graphs to prove it from a while back where I played around with the setting.
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post #14 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 07:49 AM
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LFE @ 120. Bass redirection from other channels @ 80
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post #15 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
You need to read the entire section of the post you linked. :-)

We should have Keith update his FAQ answer to remove the word "discarded". His quotes from other people actually back up the idea it is not a brickwall filter.

Mark explains it like this in this post:

"I personally tend to set the low pass on the LFE channel at 80Hz in most systems by preference. I think many forget that the difference between a 120Hz low pass and an 80Hz low pass is nothing more than a shelving filter. If the low pass is 4th order, the 80Hz filter is about 7dB lower at 100Hz and about 4dB at 80Hz. A 100Hz low pass setting would have about 1/2 that difference. The adjustment has more effect on shaping the LFE track's response than it does on cutting off content. If you're running the subs with a rising response on the low end which blends with the main speakers, experimenting with 80, 100 vs. 120Hz is basically a means to taper the top end of the LFE channel. Setting this lower than 120Hz is not hacking off content any more than setting your sub a few dB hot would destroy a soundtrack."

I have graphs to prove it from a while back where I played around with the setting.
Right you are, I had not read through that before and had seen the "discarded" comment mentioned in other forums so I took it as truth.

Thanks, and apologies for perpetuating the misinformation.
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post #16 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
You need to read the entire section of the post you linked. :-)

We should have Keith update his FAQ answer to remove the word "discarded". His quotes from other people actually back up the idea it is not a brickwall filter.
Agreed. "Discarded" is too strong. If you set the LPF of LFE to, say, 80Hz, there will be a roll-off above that frequency, so some content above 80Hz will still be present, but much lower in level. I will amend the FAQ to reflect this distinction.

c)5. What is the LPF of LFE and what should it be set to?

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post #17 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 09:47 AM
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I agree XO points are very room and system dependent. In my case, I have (3) subs. (2) have a XO of [email protected]/oct. (1) has a XO of [email protected]/oct.

One point of note though. Our hearing doesn't become totally non-directional until about 80hz. Depending on sub location, a 120hz XO (even 80hz with a gentle slope) could really foul up lower midrange/upper bass imaging.

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post #18 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 03:03 PM
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200 Hz

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post #19 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 03:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
The biggest difference is in concert/music Blu-rays. But the difference is notable on all movies too, obviously those will bass more so. And maybe muddy is the wrong word. The reduced level in the 80-120hz range removes some of the chest slam but allows you to better here the lower bass and doesn't seem to drown out the upper bass from the other speakers. So it just sounds different and preferable for me to set it to 80hz.

And I should add that I did bump up the sub level a couple db after this change. So running about 4-5db hot now rather than 2-3db hot.
I'll try some of my bluray music next. I did go back and forth between 120 and 80 on Everly last night a little bit. Just seemed to thin out the LFE a bit and I think I prefer it fuller.

Thanks for the clarification on whether the 120hz thing was a cutoff as I'd read Chris K's comment a long time ago, but had seen some of Mark's recently, too.
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post #20 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 03:22 PM
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I have experimented going back and forth between 80 and 120. Spend few days with each and you can find numerous places to hear the difference. I will stick with 80 from now on.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
I agree XO points are very room and system dependent. In my case, I have (3) subs. (2) have a XO of [email protected]/oct. (1) has a XO of [email protected]/oct.

One point of note though. Our hearing doesn't become totally non-directional until about 80hz. Depending on sub location, a 120hz XO (even 80hz with a gentle slope) could really foul up lower midrange/upper bass imaging.
How do you set separate crossovers per sub?
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post #22 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
How do you set separate crossovers per sub?
The knob on the back

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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
The knob on the back
So you're bypassing the bass management in an avr/pre and don't use the LFE channel at all?
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post #24 of 39 Old 04-29-2015, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
So you're bypassing the bass management in an avr/pre and don't use the LFE channel at all?
I dont use an AVR, And so no, I dont use any bass mgmt or a LFE channel.

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post #25 of 39 Old 04-30-2015, 07:08 AM
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Seems to be a bit of confusion here. There are several functions being blended into one: the LFE LPF, the crossover frequency, and bass management. However, they are actually separate functions.

The LFE channel is an independent channel containing up to 120Hz content, therefore the LPF should be at 120Hz, or LFE content will be missing. Then there's the crossover used in bass management, which would be the more room/speaker dependant function, as it controls how much LF material is crossed over from the mains to the sub. Then there's the small/large speaker size function, which determines if the crossover removes LF material from the mains and redirects it to the sub, or leaves it in the mains AND sub. That function is affected by the crossover frequency setting. The exception is if there's no sub, then the LFE gets distributed to the mains (usually).

Typical bass management crossover setting is 80Hz, but depends on the performance of the room and the mains, and would change the bass character and quality. Changing the LFE LPF usually has very little audible effect as most LFE content is below 80Hz, though technically there can be content up to 120Hz in that channel. It does not change what happens in the mains.

But really, the only correct setting for the LFE LPF is 120Hz.
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post #26 of 39 Old 04-30-2015, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaddie View Post
Seems to be a bit of confusion here. There are several functions being blended into one: the LFE LPF, the crossover frequency, and bass management. However, they are actually separate functions.

The LFE channel is an independent channel containing up to 120Hz content, therefore the LPF should be at 120Hz, or LFE content will be missing. Then there's the crossover used in bass management, which would be the more room/speaker dependant function, as it controls how much LF material is crossed over from the mains to the sub. Then there's the small/large speaker size function, which determines if the crossover removes LF material from the mains and redirects it to the sub, or leaves it in the mains AND sub. That function is affected by the crossover frequency setting. The exception is if there's no sub, then the LFE gets distributed to the mains (usually).

Typical bass management crossover setting is 80Hz, but depends on the performance of the room and the mains, and would change the bass character and quality. Changing the LFE LPF usually has very little audible effect as most LFE content is below 80Hz, though technically there can be content up to 120Hz in that channel. It does not change what happens in the mains.

But really, the only correct setting for the LFE LPF is 120Hz.
In real life, there is very little content up to 120Hz in the LFE channel, according to professional film mixers. But yes, there could indeed be.

The issue is whether that content is so important that having it negates any 'issues' which may arise from using a LPF of LFE of 120Hz. I find, for example, that what seems to be in the LFE channel above 80hz is mostly "mush" (I have dual Seaton Submersives so my bass performance is very good and very revealing). By using an LPF of LFE of 80hz I seem to be able to eliminate the mush without having any negative impact on the real bass content.

It seems less than productive, to me, to follow a mantra (the only correct setting is 120Hz) if actual experience shows that better results are obtained by not following it. This is, of course, assuming one understands all the issues involved in any decision made.

I set my LPF of LFE at 80Hz years ago and have never felt any need to revisit it. Of course, YMMV.
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post #27 of 39 Old 05-01-2015, 05:51 AM
 
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I use the same LPF as I would set to L/R ie if I were to use small 70hz for L/C/R, I use 70hz for subwoofer. LPF functions for all content- PCM- so for music it's too bloaty. Lexicon pre.

I don't like LPF to 120hz for movies either.
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post #28 of 39 Old 10-14-2015, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Agreed. "Discarded" is too strong. If you set the LPF of LFE to, say, 80Hz, there will be a roll-off above that frequency, so some content above 80Hz will still be present, but much lower in level. I will amend the FAQ to reflect this distinction.

c)5. What is the LPF of LFE and what should it be set to?
That link is golden! Great info, thanks!
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post #29 of 39 Old 10-14-2015, 07:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
In real life, there is very little content up to 120Hz in the LFE channel, according to professional film mixers.
+1. Also, with respect to LFE track material being directionally locatable, the LFE track is brickwall filtered at 120Hz, so regular program material harmonics that can be directionally locatable even with an 80Hz low pass of the other channels aren't present. If you have the ability to set the normal program low pass frequency and LFE channel low pass frequencies independently the difference that would probably be heard between 80 and 120Hz with the regular program probably would not be heard with the LFE track.
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post #30 of 39 Old 10-14-2015, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
+1. Also, with respect to LFE track material being directionally locatable, the LFE track is brickwall filtered at 120Hz, so regular program material harmonics that can be directionally locatable even with an 80Hz low pass of the other channels aren't present. If you have the ability to set the normal program low pass frequency and LFE channel low pass frequencies independently the difference that would probably be heard between 80 and 120Hz with the regular program probably would not be heard with the LFE track.
Thanks Bill. With your permission, I will add that additional insight to the Audyssey FAQ answer which deals with this issue.
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