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post #31 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by witchdoctor View Post
TEREZASRBOVA never take advice about steak from a vegetarian and never take advice about audiophile cables from people who use stock cables. Just because they can't tell the difference doesn't mean you can't. Audition cables in your OWN system with your OWN ears and then decide if they add value. As long as you can return them the only risk you have is not hearing how good your system can really sound and THAT would be a shame.
But Doc, You can't hear the difference either in a bias controlled comparison unless, of course, the cables are incompetently designed. Incompetent would include such things as attaching filters to the wire. We hear what you hear in a sighted comparison. We just understand why we hear it.
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post #32 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 04:02 AM
 
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No. Litz wire is of benefit at radio frequencies, but it doesn't do diddly in the audio frequencies. The same applies to skin effect, and for that matter many more of the bogus claims made by the cable crooks and those sufficiently uninformed and/or foolish enough to believe them.
This paper by Mogami says that simply splitting say a 1mm wire into lots of thinner insulated wires does not affect skin effect at all. He does mention that the winding techniques do - and this is the key. Litz wire needs to be wound in such a way that the individual strands spend time on the surface and in the center of the bundle. Then skin effect can be reduced.

http://www.intex.tokyo/e/puzzle/pzl-21.html
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post #33 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by TEREZASRBOVA
Thoughts and advice appreciated
If you want good speaker cable at a reasonable price, shop monoprice or bluejeanscable.

If you want to be an "audiophile", buy the most expensive and/or exotic cable you can find and - this is very important - buy some Shakti Stones. Life itself is meaningless without them.
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post #34 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 05:09 AM
 
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If you want to be an "audiophile", buy the most expensive and/or exotic cable you can find and - this is very important - buy some Shakti Stones.
If you want to be an audiophile cut a small hole in your pants pocket and walk to your local toy store. Buy a bag of marbles, empty the bag into your pocket, then walk home. One by one the marbles will fall out the hole in your pocket. When you've lost all your marbles, congratulations! You're now an audiophile!
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post #35 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by jaddie View Post
So...if you like to use big bare copper wire, then you probably keep some space the conductors so nothing bad happens. And, by spacing them, you know what you just did? Raised the cable's inductance! Significantly!

Just stick to the standard 14ga or 12ga paired speaker wire, it's all you need, and all you really want.
You read info into my post that I didn't say. I said I used 12 as the biggest wire I run but, for the length of the run, 16 would be what's called for on the charts. But thanks for the concern. I've been doing this for about 50 years now. Not sure where or why you made up the rest of the stuff in your post.
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post #36 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by CSG123 View Post
You read info into my post that I didn't say. I said I used 12 as the biggest wire I run but, for the length of the run, 16 would be what's called for on the charts. But thanks for the concern. I've been doing this for about 50 years now. Not sure where or why you made up the rest of the stuff in your post.
You said, "I use bare copper wire...." in Post #27. In my world, "bare" means "without covering or clothing", as in, "she exposed her bare...." oh, sorry, better example: "he touched the bare copper wire and was electrocuted". Picturing two individual strands of bare, insulation free, copper wire running across the floor, I was inspired to respond as I did.

I guess your wire has...um...a covering of some sort, so not really "bare" then.
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post #37 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by witchdoctor View Post
This paper by Mogami says that simply splitting say a 1mm wire into lots of thinner insulated wires does not affect skin effect at all. He does mention that the winding techniques do - and this is the key. Litz wire needs to be wound in such a way that the individual strands spend time on the surface and in the center of the bundle. Then skin effect can be reduced.

http://www.intex.tokyo/e/puzzle/pzl-21.html
But reducing skin effect is pointless at audio frequencies because it has no effect on anything audio and is not audible. The cable industry is masterful at using irrelevant scientific phenomena in order to hype the products. Sorry but it is pure nonsense. Cables that affect frequency response are defective and, fortunately, there are very few of them.

Your link, by the way, provides some explanation for skin effect in litz wire but makes no claims that it has any value in audio cables. What it shows is that skin effect is significant at radio frequencies and insignificant at audio frequencies. We all agree with this. The conclusion about whether it matters in audio is "That is the question." That is an exact quote. By posting the link you follow the normal pointless hype employed by the high end cable industry and need to be called on it. My wild guess is that you don't understand what the article you linked even means.

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post #38 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 06:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
But reducing skin effect is pointless at audio frequencies because it has no effect on anything audio and is not audible. The cable industry is masterful at using irrelevant scientific phenomena in order to hype the products. Sorry but it is pure nonsense. Cables that affect frequency response are defective and, fortunately, there are very few of them.

Your link, by the way, provides some explanation for skin effect in litz wire but makes no claims that it has any value in audio cables. What it shows is that skin effect is significant at radio frequencies and insignificant at audio frequencies. We all agree with this. The conclusion about whether it matters in audio is "That is the question." That is an exact quote. By posting the link you follow the normal pointless hype employed by the high end cable industry and need to be called on it. My wild guess is that you don't understand what the article you linked even means.
If you have questions about the article please contact the authors here:
http://www.mogamicable.com/additional/best_cable.php
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post #39 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 06:22 AM
 
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My wild guess is that you don't understand what the article you linked even means.
That's not a wild guess, it's spot on.
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post #40 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jaddie View Post
You said, "I use bare copper wire...." in Post #27. In my world, "bare" means "without covering or clothing", as in, "she exposed her bare...." oh, sorry, better example: "he touched the bare copper wire and was electrocuted". Picturing two individual strands of bare, insulation free, copper wire running across the floor, I was inspired to respond as I did.

I guess your wire has...um...a covering of some sort, so not really "bare" then.
Dude, seriously? When we discuss bare wire in these cases, we're talking about unterminated ends, not runs of uninsulated wire. Sheesh.
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Dude, seriously? When we discuss bare wire in these cases,
Dude, srsly, bare wire means uninsulated wire. Unterminated means not terminated.
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post #42 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by witchdoctor View Post
If you have questions about the article please contact the authors here:
http://www.mogamicable.com/additional/best_cable.php

I have no questions about the article. I have no argument against what it says. My point is that it says the opposite of what you think it says. It does not back you up. My issue is with you, not the article.
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post #43 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 09:19 AM
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Dude, srsly, bare wire means uninsulated wire. Unterminated means not terminated.
Yeah seriously. When it comes to wire, people do all sorts of strange things like using coat hanger wire, cable "elevators", sand bags, voodoo, and eye of newt. Using completely bare wires is totally in that realm. Glad to hear that's not in yours.
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post #44 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 09:45 AM
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Example of 14AWG Bare Copper Wire



I had refrained from showing my preferred speaker cable here at Neverland East, but no one has topped it (so far), so here it is, again, for those with intact memories.



Still plan to go back to the bi-wire configuration, and get rid of the confusingly small jumpers.

I'll be back later...


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post #45 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 10:35 AM
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... so here it is, again, for those with intact memories.
If memories were intact, no need to see it again. It may benefit those with short/long term memory loss.
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post #46 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 10:38 AM
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No problems with Ray's cables ever falling off--ever!

Looked at one of the cable companies and they talked about most awards from What Hi-Fi? So I ambled over to their site and read this in a review:

The Akorner XL is a solid foundation for our reference kit, and helps deliver a relaxed performance that we quickly warm to. Voices are mellow and engaging. The laidback delivery is presented in a wide, airy soundfield that allows instruments to flourish. The twang of guitar strings in The White Stripes’ In The Cold, Cold Night and Meg White’s vocals could have more bite, but overall it’s an undemanding listen.

They were not talking about cables, speakers, amps or components--the thing tested was a piece of furniture to hold your components. Good to know that the shelf presented a wide, airy soundfield but I wonder about the lack of bite in some vocals and how to fix that? Is there an audiophile grade furniture polish or maybe the legs don't damp the microphonic vibrations caused by solar flares?

At least this eliminates the complaints about the cable wars; it was the shelf all long! All ABX testing, scope traces and other measurements can't be believed since they did not use or list audiophile grade furniture.

Only 260 British Pounds for the rack, not sure what their top rated and most musical rack costs but I'm sure they will let me know. Enjoy!


Read more at http://www.whathifi.com/hi-fi-racks/...fARJHyVbkVf.99
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Dude, seriously? When we discuss bare wire in these cases, we're talking about unterminated ends, not runs of uninsulated wire. Sheesh.
Not really since the discussion isn't about banana plugs vs inserting bare wire ends, it's about the wire as a whole. If Ray/Jaddie hadn't mentioned it I would have It was a refreshing break from the persistent marketing speak of the witchdoctor....
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post #48 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 10:50 AM
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Dude, seriously? When we discuss bare wire in these cases, we're talking about unterminated ends, not runs of uninsulated wire. Sheesh.
I also thought your post sounded like un-insulated wire. It was a mis-leading way to describe your speaker wire.
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post #49 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 10:54 AM
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Boy I bet your teachers loved you guys.
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post #50 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 10:57 AM
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Boy I bet your teachers loved you guys.
You know, just a simple "Wow, that was a bit mis-leading guys, sorry about that!" would have been the proper response.
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post #51 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 11:01 AM
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If memories were intact, no need to see it again. It may benefit those with short/long term memory loss.
Well, that is entirely correct. The third case would be those who have never seen a real speaker cable.

My Mother has developed a remarkable degree brainlessness now at age 95.

It's not as entertaining as Clive Wearing's affliction, but it does lead to useless repeating of repeated information or instructions.


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post #52 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 11:09 AM
 
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Boy I bet your teachers loved you guys.
So you're saying your teachers didn't have such a good time with you?
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post #53 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 11:46 AM
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post #54 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 11:51 AM
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The third case would be those who have never seen a real speaker cable.
Are those "jumper cables" from K-Mart's auto department with fancy connectors?
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post #55 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 12:47 PM
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Are those "jumper cables" from K-Mart's auto department with fancy connectors?
No, they aren't flexible 'welding cable'. There are 19 strands of 15AWG in it.

Leftovers from a Telco Central Office install.

The insulation is marked 1992 for the manufacture date.

It's green so it would have been specified for Earth ground.

2AWG THHN is the type

http://www.wesbellwireandcable.com/E...icalwire2.html

And the lugs

https://www.gexpro.com/copper-1-cond...22ADF6.hybris1

I'll be back later...


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post #56 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 12:58 PM
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I'm sure they "sound" great.
OTOH, I"m sure they work great and it's a wonderful DIY project. But, they are not real speaker cables (per se).

Last edited by Ratman; 07-09-2015 at 01:03 PM.
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post #57 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 01:10 PM
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I remember I bought into the speaker wire thing in the 90's with 3x10ft XLO cables for my LCR speakers. I still have them but dont use anymore. Honestly my ears never could tell the difference but I dont know what to listen for same for my msb dlink dac

when I first received them I thought to myself I could make my own with 30 strands of 20 gauge and twist/braid myself(guesstimate on strands/gauge I never counted)

an old friend of mine buys into the speaker wire stuff tho...retired electrical engineer 40 years. He mentioned at cornell he had to design/build speakers and amp as graduation requirement and that when it comes to stereos every little bit helps when it comes to reproducing great sound to include cables/wires...ofc this was in the 60's...but I believe him to an extent.

I dont think he ever worked with super expensive speaker cables tho, probably just means dont use crap

and my own personal/noob opinion on using too large or is it small of gauge wire could lead to early oxidation or corrosion of the terminals. so just stick with 12-16 gauge

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post #58 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 01:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jdcrox View Post
You know, just a simple "Wow, that was a bit mis-leading guys, sorry about that!" would have been the proper response.
maybe English is not his first language
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post #59 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 01:26 PM
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I remember I bought into the speaker wire thing in the 90's with 3x10ft XLO cables for my LCR speakers. I still have them but dont use anymore. Honestly my ears never could tell the difference but I dont know what to listen for same for my msb dlink dac

when I first received them I thought to myself I could make my own with 30 strands of 20 gauge and twist/braid myself(guesstimate on strands/gauge I never counted)

an old friend of mine buys into the speaker wire stuff tho...retired electrical engineer 40 years. He mentioned at cornell he had to design/build speakers and amp as graduation requirement and that when it comes to stereos every little bit helps when it comes to reproducing great sound to include cables/wires...ofc this was in the 60's...but I believe him to an extent.

I dont think he ever worked with super expensive speaker cables tho, probably just means dont use crap

and my own personal/noob opinion on using too large or is it small of gauge wire could lead to early oxidation or corrosion of the terminals. so just stick with 12-16 gauge

Oxidation:

NO-OX-ID-A is the industrial strength goo for all but maybe the most delicate electrical connections. An 8-ounce tube should last you a lifetime. I have several.

Contact Enhancer:

Stabilant-22 might be the last word there, although I have some DeOxit Gold, whose literature, though not specific, reads as thought it has a similar (if not the same) active component. It's been real good at fixing things around the house and car that stopped working correctly (for me).

When I played around with homemade wires and configurations I could never shake the impression that simple solid core was better. Something like clarity or precision came through. Still does.

I subscribe to the 'every little bit helps' idea, too. Reductions of degradation is the best you can do. Can't make things better, only less worse.

Since it's only a hobby here, I get to try whatever I want. Never bought a fancy cable though. Doesn't make sense to me when I crunch the numbers. Throw conductivity at it, I say.

Measurement-wise, at some point I compared 18AWG to the 2AWG, and there was a rolloff in the highs with the 18 gauge. So it came out. And the other pair of 2AWG will go back in (as biwire) when I get ambitious again. I didn't want to cut them, as they are a little longer, but now I find I can get it by the foot at HomeDepot if I need to, so, out come the cable cutters.

I'll be back later...


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Last edited by RayDunzl; 07-09-2015 at 01:37 PM.
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post #60 of 83 Old 07-09-2015, 01:38 PM
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Ah, another cable war thread, I do love these. I thought I'd seen it all, but that one about the audiophile SHELF? Holy **** I had to read through a dozen pages of their website before I was convinced they are actually serious and not displaying expert audiophile trolling skills. Literally astounded.
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