Do good cables make an audible difference in sound? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Do good cables make an audible difference in sound?

Found this on another site.

The voting blew me away.

Do good cables make an audible difference in sound?

832 91.63% Yes, I can hear improvements in sound quality
30 3.30% No, wire is wire and they all sound pretty much the same
46 5.07% Undecided

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #2 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 10:26 AM
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Link please.
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post #3 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowed View Post
Link please.
I am of the understanding that links to other audio boards are not allowed.



It's a great site, no attitudes or posse to capture and convert (like here), simply a totally different perspective.

You can find it yourself if you are are an Aficionado.
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What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.

Last edited by eljr; 10-27-2015 at 10:39 AM.
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post #4 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
I am of the understanding that links to other audio boards are not allowed.
In that case, I saw a test results where nobody could tell any difference in any cables.
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post #5 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 10:44 AM
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The question was 'good cable' so if you assume the other cable is bad meaning inappropriate like a single 69 gauge strand, corroded or intermittent, then probably anyone can hear a difference. Of course, the other cable could also be 'great cable'. Also a difference in sound doesn't' have to be better, it could be worse. We could go on and on, but we would end up missing our own funeral.
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post #6 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowed View Post
I see... thank you.
Unlike many here would be inclined to do, I did not post this to ridicule, rather to show the astounding difference from the majority here.

It's one heck of a juxtaposition.

I have got to think there is more to this than just placebo given such overwhelming numbers.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #7 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 11:51 AM
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There is such a polar opposite belief on that site compared to a lot of opinions here.

It is difficult for me to understand how these hard set views originated on such a large scale.

Just reading some of the comments,
...on the tremendous difference the power cable makes...


I... just... need...


new cables...

I MUST BUY NEW CABLES!!!
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post #8 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 12:02 PM
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I hope posters in this thread will Take the High Road in every post...
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post #9 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 12:11 PM
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Here is an interesting experiment;
We should test how thin/long/coiled the cable can go till it actually audible in blind test.
The result might surprise people how extremely ****ty the cable is when it actually starts to effects sound.

EDIT:
I see that eljr is a champ at starting these threads... why I wonder?

Last edited by James Freeman; 10-27-2015 at 12:16 PM.
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post #10 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 12:17 PM
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A high end power cable can make all the difference in the sound of a nice piece of equipment. After all, the 35 miles or so of cable from your house to the power plant is solid gold, why skimp on that last 4 foot piece of cable from the wall to your equipment...
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post #11 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 12:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
The result might surprise people how extremely ****ty the cable is when it actually starts to effects sound.

EDIT:
I see that eljr is a champ at starting these threads... why I wonder?
If the cable effects sound then it is a ****ty cable indeed, bad enough when your choice of cable gauge/length affects the sound.
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post #12 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 12:21 PM
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If we only knew of someone who had actually performed such a test. I wonder where we could fine such a person. I know, maybe AVS forum!

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...able-test.html

If that doesn't convince you nothing will.

The argument that if so many people believe it, it must be true is ridiculous. There was a time when 100% of people believed the earth was flat.
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post #13 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
If we only knew of someone who had actually performed such a test. I wonder where we could fine such a person. I know, maybe AVS forum!

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...able-test.html

If that doesn't convince you nothing will.

The argument that if so many people believe it, it must be true is ridiculous. There was a time when 100% of people believed the earth was flat.
I'm still waiting for the Aluminum foil vs power cable test.
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post #14 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
If the cable effects sound then it is a ****ty cable indeed, bad enough when your choice of cable gauge/length affects the sound.
Yeah, it's the whole point.
The point of this experiment is to have a VISUAL indication to show the exact reverse of what the super expensive audiophile cables advertise, after it begins to be audible in a blind test.
After people have seen how flimsy thin the cable can be before it effects sound, people will be very confident buying the standard 16AWG speaker cable you can buy everywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowed
I'm still waiting for the Aluminum foil vs power cable test.
Mark probably wants to live to see his grandchildren so a ceiling hanging scotch taped aluminum foil power cable is in a big question mark...
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Last edited by James Freeman; 10-27-2015 at 12:37 PM.
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post #15 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 01:15 PM
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several posts deleted: if yours was, consider not re posting it

If you think this thread has no merit, then just move on
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Last edited by markrubin; 10-27-2015 at 01:35 PM.
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post #16 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
several posts deleted: if yours was, consider not re posting it

If you think this thread has no merit, then just move on
No humor in audio, I guess.
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post #17 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
several posts deleted: if yours was, consider not re posting it

If you think this thread has no merit, then just move on
I'm thinking we need to do a double-blind ABX study between this thread and a known-meritless one before we can conclude anything.
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post #18 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 02:55 PM
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post #19 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Here is an interesting experiment;
We should test how thin/long/coiled the cable can go till it actually audible in blind test.
The result might surprise people how extremely ****ty the cable is when it actually starts to effects sound.

EDIT:
I see that eljr is a champ at starting these threads... why I wonder?
he already said, he finds the juxtaposition of the two camps fascinating.


Oddly enough I am odd man out in discussions on wires on that site and ridiculed here in the wire discussions as well.

It seems neither camp has any use for the middle road.

still, the other site is more mature in disagreement even if less studied, as you will assert.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #20 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 03:12 PM
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Good Cables...Yes

Expensive Cables...No

Whats considered Good or Bad? Balanced or Unbalanced? Shielded or Not Shielded? Twisted or Straight?

Even "Bad" Cables at short distances theoretically has no imprint on sound but the longer the run then well... all types of interference can come into play which "Good" Cables can help shield.

Now, saying all of that. Using an inappropriate sized, class or type of cable can have unwanted effects on sound. This is Bad

Using the right cable for the job well this is Good.

Good vs Bad is not really the make up of the cable but really more or less the Right Cable should Sound the same rather it cost $1 or $100.
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post #21 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 03:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
91.63% Yes, I can hear improvements in sound quality
What they mean to say is that they believe that they can hear improvements in sound quality. Not one of them will be able to show you measured results to back up their belief. The linked thread here about aluminum foil versus Monster cables shows the only thing that matters: measured results.
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post #22 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 04:21 PM
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Yep. Much as I wanted to believe . . . much as I convinced myself I heard differences . . . not really. You can build an interconnect that will reduce high frequencies enough that it will be audibly different. Which is to say it is wrong for high fidelity reproduction. I get that I placeboed myself into confusion in the past. I accept my human-ness
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post #23 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
If we only knew of someone who had actually performed such a test. I wonder where we could fine such a person. I know, maybe AVS forum!

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...able-test.html

If that doesn't convince you nothing will.

The argument that if so many people believe it, it must be true is ridiculous. There was a time when 100% of people believed the earth was flat.
Well yeah, and now they don't believe its flat, so it changed to meet their expectations. Thats just goos customer service!

Oh wait, we're talking about cables...
Just get 12 gauge, unless of course you need 10
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post #24 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
There was a time when 100% of people believed the earth was flat.
Perhaps most people. But in antiquity, Aristotle argued that the earth is spherical and a bit later Eratosthenes made a surprisingly accurate estimation of its diameter. At the time of Columbus, scholars generally accepted the sphericity of the earth.

This is just an historical observation. I otherwise agree with what you have said.
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post #25 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 10:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
What they mean to say is that they believe that they can hear improvements in sound quality. Not one of them will be able to show you measured results to back up their belief. The linked thread here about aluminum foil versus Monster cables shows the only thing that matters: measured results.
Believe me, I have posted cables that have better measured results in these forums, I 100% guarantee that a cable that measures better will not cause any wallets to open with this crowd.
Here is your link to a cable that measure better:
http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/a...onnects-review
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post #26 of 49 Old 10-27-2015, 11:33 PM
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I was given some early grey red Kimber speaker cables that did seem to subtely help the sound in my main speakers so I continue to use them. They are multi conductor and I spent some time trying to compare them to my regular 16 guage hardware store cables.
As far as digital cables and HDMI bits is bits as long as everything gets through. Power cables I doubt it as long as the cables you have now are heavy enough. The cables inside the amp or whatever and circuit traces are usually pretty normal whatever the manufacturer gets a deal on.
I believe in ABX myself as anyone can convince themselves something they spent a lot of money on of course sounds better and the cable places know it and love money as much as I do.
Nothing I own is super high end but is great bang per buck and the sound makes me happy. I'm willing to give things a shot as you never know but I'm mostly a skeptic but have a few positive experiences.
Thanks for the clue to the link, a good read as far as I went and at least nobody as far as I wentvwas tearing anybody else apart.
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post #27 of 49 Old 10-28-2015, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowed View Post
In that case, I saw a test results where nobody could tell any difference in any cables.
Dear Shadowed,

This may be a duplicate reply, since my router intentionally disconnected me from the internet at 11:30 PM to allow me to get some sleep.
Had to reset it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I stand by my comment that 00 welding cable is great, but only if you need to drive 200 Amps through a voice coil.

There are some that believe high resistance speaker wire decreases damping and increases ringing. That should be audibly apparent, since most modern solid state amps have a very low output inpedance, unless modified (increased) by less negative or some positive feedback to sound more "Vacuum-Tube-Like".

I believe some of the Sunfire amps and some legacy Fishers had that feature - a variable feedback pot that smoothly changed inverse feedback from Voltage (Solid-State) to Current (Vacuum Tube) mode.

There are the Litz wire fanatics - Litz wire strands are individually insulated from each other. Has some beneficial effects at RF frequencies but not likely at audio.

If feedback reduces the output impedance of a modern amplifier to a milliOhm, one would think 50 milliOhms of crappy zip cord would significantly affect the damping or Q, but, unfortunately, the speaker impedance is in the equations and a few tens of milliOhms means nothing to a 3 or 8 Ohm speaker's damping.

There are also ways to get around the effects of crappy zip cord - motion (servo) feedback, second voice coil feedback or a Kelvin (4 wire-connected) speaker. Kelvin is done all the time with high-performance power supplies. A pair of "marginal" wires drives the load, voltage is sensed right at the speaker coil and a pair of much smaller, differential, shielded (twinax) wires takes the feedback back to the amplifier.

Has anyone ever heard of a Kelvin-connected speaker?

Layered heavy-duty aluminum foil, separated by mylar or Kapton sheet or even cheap waxed paper might make an excellent under-rug speaker wire. Kind of an audio equivalent of an RF stripline. Never used it but it sounds like a good idea.

Shows how much I know - I ran 14 gauge zip cord 25 feet across the cathedral ceiling when our new house was being wired. In retrospect, I should have done the layered aluminum foil under the carpet under the carpet.

BTW - one of the benefits of modern flat LED backlit LCD panels is freedom from the deconverging effects of large, unshielded speaker magnets on CRTs. My Sunfire True Subwoofer used to drive my 32 inch Trinitron crazy.

Also BTW - the reason I said to avoid vented low end speakers and subwoofers - all mine are also vented. In fact, I'd mentioned epoxying a few pounds of extra weight to the Sunfire's drone to extend the low end from 20 to 16 Hz. At a later date, the amplifier blew up and Sunfire replaced all the output transistors and drivers for their standard $250 repair charge and never mentioned the added drone weights. The weights had nothing to do with the failure.

My Best,

Ron
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post #28 of 49 Old 10-28-2015, 06:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonCK722 View Post
Dear Shadowed,

This may be a duplicate reply, since my router intentionally disconnected me from the internet at 11:30 PM to allow me to get some sleep.
Had to reset it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I stand by my comment that 00 welding cable is great, but only if you need to drive 200 Amps through a voice coil.

There are some that believe high resistance speaker wire decreases damping and increases ringing. That should be audibly apparent, since most modern solid state amps have a very low output inpedance, unless modified (increased) by less negative or some positive feedback to sound more "Vacuum-Tube-Like".

I believe some of the Sunfire amps and some legacy Fishers had that feature - a variable feedback pot that smoothly changed inverse feedback from Voltage (Solid-State) to Current (Vacuum Tube) mode.

There are the Litz wire fanatics - Litz wire strands are individually insulated from each other. Has some beneficial effects at RF frequencies but not likely at audio.

If feedback reduces the output impedance of a modern amplifier to a milliOhm, one would think 50 milliOhms of crappy zip cord would significantly affect the damping or Q, but, unfortunately, the speaker impedance is in the equations and a few tens of milliOhms means nothing to a 3 or 8 Ohm speaker's damping.

There are also ways to get around the effects of crappy zip cord - motion (servo) feedback, second voice coil feedback or a Kelvin (4 wire-connected) speaker. Kelvin is done all the time with high-performance power supplies. A pair of "marginal" wires drives the load, voltage is sensed right at the speaker coil and a pair of much smaller, differential, shielded (twinax) wires takes the feedback back to the amplifier.

Has anyone ever heard of a Kelvin-connected speaker?

Layered heavy-duty aluminum foil, separated by mylar or Kapton sheet or even cheap waxed paper might make an excellent under-rug speaker wire. Kind of an audio equivalent of an RF stripline. Never used it but it sounds like a good idea.

Shows how much I know - I ran 14 gauge zip cord 25 feet across the cathedral ceiling when our new house was being wired. In retrospect, I should have done the layered aluminum foil under the carpet under the carpet.

BTW - one of the benefits of modern flat LED backlit LCD panels is freedom from the deconverging effects of large, unshielded speaker magnets on CRTs. My Sunfire True Subwoofer used to drive my 32 inch Trinitron crazy.

Also BTW - the reason I said to avoid vented low end speakers and subwoofers - all mine are also vented. In fact, I'd mentioned epoxying a few pounds of extra weight to the Sunfire's drone to extend the low end from 20 to 16 Hz. At a later date, the amplifier blew up and Sunfire replaced all the output transistors and drivers for their standard $250 repair charge and never mentioned the added drone weights. The weights had nothing to do with the failure.

My Best,

Ron
Ron, welcome to AVS thanks for posting, I have been a Sunfire customer for years and have had great experiences with both my TG3 processor and my TSEQ 10 Subwoofer.
You mention Litz wire, here is a good article on the subject:
http://www.intex.tokyo/e/puzzle/pzl-21.html

Last edited by witchdoctor; 10-28-2015 at 07:14 AM.
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post #29 of 49 Old 10-28-2015, 06:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
Found this on another site.

The voting blew me away.

Do good cables make an audible difference in sound?

832 91.63% Yes, I can hear improvements in sound quality
30 3.30% No, wire is wire and they all sound pretty much the same
46 5.07% Undecided

For the "measuring matters" folks this is another type of measurement known as subjective measurements. Subjective measurements are made with the ears in audio and in this study 91.63% of listeners can hear improvements a good cable makes. That group has hearing and speakers sensitive enough to hear a difference and I count myself in that group. 3.3% don't have hearing or speakers sensitive enough to hear an improvement.

Next we have objective measurements and in audio objective measurements are made with the eyes. The eyes interpret the data created by the measuring instruments. For an example check out the data in the link I posted above #25 and you can see the measurable difference.

Finally we have rejective measurements. Rejective measurements occur in the brain. When the brain is presented with objective and subjective data that is contrary to its predetermined belief it is so close minded it "rejects" anything that would cause it to reopen and imagine a different possibility. Sadly rejective measurements are not limited to audio.

So if measuring matters to you remember, listen with your ears, look at the measurements with your eyes, and keep your mind open to new evidence that may be contrary to old beliefs that may no longer be relevant.
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post #30 of 49 Old 10-28-2015, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
Yep. Much as I wanted to believe . . . much as I convinced myself I heard differences . . . not really.
I never heard a difference involving wires.

3 times I have heard a difference, improvement to my ear, in my audio not speaker related. Once when I changed a CD player.

Once when I placed a new universal player in the system. I laughed at myself over that one because while I was enjoying the "upgrade" I realized I was listening to a different source and the new player was not even turned on.

Then, recently, I head a dramatic improvement come from my one of my systems only I has switched on spears B not A!

I guess the point is, you really need to be open minded to both possible improvement and to your own possible folly.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
eljr is offline  
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