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post #1 of 7 Old 06-18-2016, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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5.0 Setup

I am currently running my system as a 3.0 surround, and I'm looking to add in-ceiling surround speakers into the mix. In my settings, I have the left and right main speakers set to LARGE and the center set to SMALL. I am eyeing some small surround speakers as well. The question that I have, since I'm running the setup with no subwoofer, is if the lower frequencies of the three channels set to SMALL will be re-routed to the left and right speakers that can handle the bass or if my system will just remove the lower frequencies entirely from those channels. My receiver is a Yamaha RX-V863.

Also, when channels are set to SMALL, is less power sent that direction so can I get speakers with a lower power rating? The amp is 105 watts/channel, and the speakers I am looking to get are rated at 80 watts.
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post #2 of 7 Old 06-18-2016, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by zed6and789 View Post
I am currently running my system as a 3.0 surround, and I'm looking to add in-ceiling surround speakers into the mix. In my settings, I have the left and right main speakers set to LARGE and the center set to SMALL. I am eyeing some small surround speakers as well. The question that I have, since I'm running the setup with no subwoofer, is if the lower frequencies of the three channels set to SMALL will be re-routed to the left and right speakers that can handle the bass or if my system will just remove the lower frequencies entirely from those channels. My receiver is a Yamaha RX-V863.

Also, when channels are set to SMALL, is less power sent that direction so can I get speakers with a lower power rating? The amp is 105 watts/channel, and the speakers I am looking to get are rated at 80 watts.
Yes, any speakers that you set to small (bass management activated) will have bass below the selected x-over point sent to your front L/R speakers. Nothing will be thrown away.

Don't worry at all about speakers' power ratings. Since you're going to set the center and surrounds to small with an 80-120hz x-over, it takes load off of those channels.

Hopefully in the future you can add a sub - even a small one, to take the strain off of your AVR's amps and front L/R speakers too.
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post #3 of 7 Old 06-18-2016, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I will eventually get a new sub (and I'll have to search these forums for reviews when the time comes).

The real situation that I have is that my main channels are running dual 6.5" woofers, so they really aren't all that large and can only handle down to about 40hz. If I have 5 channels worth of bass coming out of these two channels, do you think it will be too much? I can change the crossover frequency between 60hz-120hz, so do you think I should keep that set to the lower end to keep the load off the mains? My center channel has 4" woofers and rears will have 6.5" woofers. I'm thinking ~80hz.
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post #4 of 7 Old 06-18-2016, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zed6and789 View Post
with no subwoofer, is if the lower frequencies of the three channels set to SMALL will be re-routed to the left and right speakers that can handle the bass or if my system will just remove the lower frequencies entirely from those channels..
The first one is what happens.


" Also, when channels are set to SMALL, is less power sent that direction so can I get speakers with a lower power rating? The amp is 105 watts/channel, and the speakers I am looking to get are rated at 80 watts"


It is rare that a full level signal is sent to the rears. I call this "exploding Death Star mode" and even then I'm not entirely sure what the rears are doing in that scene, but everyone seems to get the idea I'm pointing out and that most movies aren't loud in the rears except for explosions, maybe.


Instead of worrying about watts, a grossly over marketed concept, how about worrying about quality? In-ceiling speakers:


A. Aren't easy to reposition if you change your mind and don't like their location where you drilled a hole.
B. Usually have very little if any degree of aiming capability.
C. Instead of being either acoustic suspension (sealed cabinet) or duct port/passive radiator design (as I'm willing to bet your front speakers are) they are usually of the infinite baffle or even worse "free air" kind of design. These are how speakers were designed back in the 40s, but since they have no clue as to what sort of air capacity to expect behind the woofer cone in the ceiling, they are forced to make these huge compromises.
D. They are often made more by "accessory companies" rather than "speaker companies" so their performance is iffy.
F. They pretty much never get reviewed by the long established, big name audio magazines since they consider them of such a low quality.
G. Finding frequency response measurements taken by third parties is exceedingly difficult, in an attempt to judge their quality, and even if you do it is sort of meaningless since it won't actually speak to what you should expect in your room, with your air volume behind the woofer cones, listening at your angle.
H. The woofer sound radiated into the room from its front surface is the same that is radiated by its back surface into the air pocket in the ceiling, so your upstairs neighbors, if you have them, will hear your noise louder than any other setup where at least there are two membranes separating them from you, not just one with the woofers mounted, (gulp) inside it. Side neighbors or house mates also will get louder than normal exposure to your sound.


Ceiling speakers are great for elevators and department store background music/intercom use but I recommend against them for critical home use.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

Last edited by m. zillch; 06-18-2016 at 02:11 PM.
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post #5 of 7 Old 06-18-2016, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zed6and789 View Post
Yes, I will eventually get a new sub (and I'll have to search these forums for reviews when the time comes).

The real situation that I have is that my main channels are running dual 6.5" woofers, so they really aren't all that large and can only handle down to about 40hz. If I have 5 channels worth of bass coming out of these two channels, do you think it will be too much? I can change the crossover frequency between 60hz-120hz, so do you think I should keep that set to the lower end to keep the load off the mains? My center channel has 4" woofers and rears will have 6.5" woofers. I'm thinking ~80hz.
At this point you've gotta 'run what ya brung'. Let the master volume be your guide and if you hear any audible straining from the L/Rs then you will simply need to turn it down.

Experiment with the x-overs and use what you think sounds best. Don't expect any huge audible differences, as it will be subtle.

Once you add a sub, then change the front L/R to small and all will be fine.
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post #6 of 7 Old 06-18-2016, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

Ceiling speakers are great for elevators and department store background music/intercom use but I recommend against them for critical home use.
The in-ceiling solution is a compromise so that I can have surround speakers, and my wife doesn't have the "eyesore" of wires and speakers sticking out.

My main speakers are JBL Studio 280 and I'm looking at the Studio 2 6IC for the ceiling speakers.

We have semi-vaulted ceilings (no neighbors), and I will place them on the far side of the vault so that they will be facing towards the listening area.
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post #7 of 7 Old 06-18-2016, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zed6and789 View Post
The in-ceiling solution is a compromise so that I can have surround speakers, and my wife doesn't have the "eyesore" of wires and speakers sticking out.

My main speakers are JBL Studio 280 and I'm looking at the Studio 2 6IC for the ceiling speakers.

We have semi-vaulted ceilings (no neighbors), and I will place them on the far side of the vault so that they will be facing towards the listening area.
I've been in many a home setup with ceiling mounted surrounds and they sound fine. I would never want them as LCRs, but if I had to have them as surrounds, I would do so, and I would go with a set that has the adjustable tweeter.
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